The New, Friendly Face of the Papacy

[hch]

So while folks believe that the Bible is talking about a system

and not "individuals" when they are shown that the Bible

is talking about individuals as surely as Cyrus was named by name, the facts don't see the light of day.

[hch]

Historisism is how God has led his church... Modernism ... futurism ...Fundamentalist ...Modernism, Dispensationalist and Fundamentalism ... [and you go back to Historisism ] the 7 heads: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (with the Papacy having a major role) the deadly wound (no great world empire but a time of independent nations.

following your logic, it looks like would-be Bible students have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

IMHO: the Bible is the best interpreter of itself. But that is old fashion.

[Gerr]

It's about time to put the whole "pope is the antichrist" thing on the trash heap of religious propoganda. Look at the real world out there, folks - not just the 19th century world according to EGW. There are a lot of forces out there that are a much larger threat to religious freedom than Catholicism.

Would the devil make a $25 counterfeit? Foist a drink and put crossbones on the label? "Anti-Christ" also means "in place of Christ".

ESV | ‎Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

ESV | ‎2 Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

ESV | ‎2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

ESV | ‎Re 13:3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

[Dr. Waite]

I believe that the current pope is the first jesuit to be become pope.

The Society of Jesus, more commonly known as the Jesuits, is a society within the Roman Catholic Church that was founded by Ignatius of Loyola and instituted by Pope Paul III. The Jesuit society demands four vows of its members: poverty, chastity, obedience to Christ, and obedience to the Pope. The purpose of the Jesuits is the propagation of the Catholic faith by any means possible.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesuits.html#ixzz38aK8op9e

[Gregory Matthews]

The f

following will be interesting, if accurate:

https://www.pcusa.org/news/2013/3/20/why-first-jesuit-pope-big-deal/

[CoAspen]

Quote:

“Jesuits work hard to cultivate spiritual depth, and pragmatism. We get a glimpse of a little bit of that in (Bergoglio’s) time as bishop. He has a vision of simplicity and connection with the poor and marginalized,” Collins said. “I hope another part of what shapes his papacy is that pragmatic, let’s-get-it-done attitude.”

An interesting observation/comment.(now I know why some sda's fear the jesuits)

just kidding!!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

the Jesuits' 4th vow is interesting... I may be wrong, but according to the various documents and studies I've seen, "obedience to the Pope" referred to the Jesuits as being under the authority of the Pope, and not of local or district bishops and cardinals.. (see, for example, https://archive.org/stream/fourthvowinitsig151omal/fourthvowinitsig151omal_djvu.txt )

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

and another thing about the Jesuits, I think the general process which potential priests go through to determine whether or not they become a Jesuit priest wouldn't be a bad process for potential Adventist ministers..

Quote:

Stages of Vocation Discernment source :

Attraction or Interest - a person feels a mysterious attraction to the idea of a serving God.. He feels in his heart that he was made for something different than others, that he is somehow invited to a deeper relationship with God and the Church. It may begin as a desire, or an attraction to religious things….

Inquiry – A man takes the initiative to contact someone for more information (he talks with a Jesuit he knows, sends an e-mail, makes a phone call). The person will usually contact someone he has met, or he will seek out a Jesuit at a school or parish…

Information Gathering – This part of the process can take place over the course of months or years. He gathers information from many sources….

Spiritual Discernment – The person enters into an agreement with the Vocation Director to begin a process of prayer, conversation and investigation concerning a future decision. The person agrees to regular prayer, spiritual direction, attending some events, visiting and meeting Jesuits…

Confirmation – After a while, the person begins to move toward more certainty about a decision. He commits more deeply to the process by working with the Vocation Director to set a time-frame for making a decision about formally applying to the Society of Jesus. Prayer, and spiritual direction are the guides at this stage…

I doubt many Adventist ministers went through such a process to determine their suitability for the ministry...

[CoAspen]

It seems to me that many SDA's think that the Beast in Revelations is the RCC (so I called it the SDA Beast) and I am suggesting that maybe its the Devil (as the Beast) that is leading that train of thought. It would be a good way to deflect the truth.

Yes, a traditional viewpoint, for sure. My personal view is, as others have said, it can be anyone that comes between us and God. The supreme being would be Lucifer.

Conservatism quite often needs an individual/event/thought to focus on for their version of truth to be the correct one. By having a named enemy and concentration on that, one can feel they are accomplishing the true mission.

Politics is quite adept at this also, a deflection from reality of the moment!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

the Bible is the best interpreter of itself. But that is old fashion.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

It seems to me that many SDA's think that the Beast in Revelations is the RCC (so I called it the SDA Beast) and I am suggesting that maybe its the Devil (as the Beast) that is leading that train of thought. It would be a good way to deflect the truth.

Yes, a traditional viewpoint, for sure. My personal view is, as others have said, it can be anyone that comes between us and God. The supreme being would be Lucifer.

Conservatism quite often needs an individual/event/thought to focus on for their version of truth to be the correct one. By having a named enemy and concentration on that, one can feel they are accomplishing the true mission.

Politics is quite adept at this also, a deflection from reality of the moment!

Loosely speaking, I agree. But how many of those that come between you and God qualify as antichrists fulfilling these criteria?

1. In Dan 7 -

a) "little horn" that came up among the 10 horns, uproots 3 horns c) mouth "speaking great things" (blasphemies) d) "seemed greater than its companions" e) "made war against the saints" "wore out the saints" and "prevailed against them" f) "changed times and laws" g) exercises power for 3 1/2 prophetic years.

2. Rev 13 - a) receives power from the dragon (pagan Rome)

receives a mortal wound that gets healed, and the whole world follow it in amazement c) persecutes God's people who keep His commandments and keep their faith in Jesus d) speaks blasphemies e) rules for "42 mos"

3. ESV | ‎2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

4. ESV | ‎1 Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

The Mass and the reinstitution of human priests effectively denies that Jesus has come in the flesh as our propitiation and denying His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

[CoAspen]

I see Dan 7 and Rev 13 as a prediction that came true. I see it as a message for people to know that Christ/God was real, for the doubters and worriers. Also as an assurance.

Your points, 3 & 4, Lucifer himself. I am not familiar enough with Mass to know what it is totally all about. I would agree with you about the priests.

I still do not fear the RCC or see them as anyone to fear. If God be for us, who can be against us?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The Mass and the reinstitution of human priests effectively denies that Jesus has come in the flesh as our propitiation and denying His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

As an ex-Catholic who still attends Mass with his still-Catholic family occasionally, I can tell you that Catholics view Mass as a remembrance of Jesus, sacrifice; not a reenactment. On the other hand, they DO believe that the host and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ; that the priest has the power to forgive or retain sins; and that Mary has assumed into heaven and reigns as queen.

Yet, another major religion fits the Antichrist (capital A intended) better than the RCC. They also seek to change times and laws; and are wearing out the saints in certain parts of the world as we speak. PLus, they deny the Son; which tthe RCC does not do.

[Gerr]

I do not fear or hate the RCC, but neither do I consider it as some harmless garter snake. I would keep a wary eye more on the Judasses within than the enemies without.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Yet, another major religion fits the Antichrist (capital A intended) better than the RCC.

That was the position of the esteemed Dr. B., now deceased.

Let us remember: Ultimately, God will accomplish His purpose. But, that does not mean that events will occur exactly as we have been led to believe. The details may change even as the ultimate goal is retained.

Think about it: Satan has his purpose. Satan can read inspired council. In an effort to deceive many, Satan can do things differently in an attempt to catch us unaware.

Don't hold God to the details.

[Gerr]

From the Wikipedia:

The Mass as "Unbloody Sacrifice":

Very early on, the Church saw the Mass as a mystical reality in which the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is renewed. Responding to Protestant sects who denied that the Eucharist is anything more than a memorial, the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass.

This does not mean, as some critics of Catholicism claim, that the Church teaches that, in the Mass, we sacrifice Christ again. Rather, the original sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is presented to us once more.

The Mass as a Re-presentation of the Crucifixion:

This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father." This understanding of the Mass hinges on the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, Christ is truly present on the altar. If the bread and wine remained merely symbols, the Mass could still be a memorial of the Last Supper, but not a re-presentation of the Crucifixion.

You can make up your own mind what it says.

ESV | ‎Ro 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

ESV | ‎Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

ESV | ‎Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, ‎26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

ESV | ‎1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

This does not mean, as some critics of Catholicism claim, that the Church teaches that, in the Mass, we sacrifice Christ again. Rather, the original sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is presented to us once more.

Gerry, your quotation, above, supports what JoMo said in his post.

[debbym]

the beast is in in every human heart.

the carnal mind is at war with God is not subject to the law of God neither in deed ever can be.

when any form of religion takes the reins of human power, government, police, military, human authority... there is manifested a form of an evil beast power.

In God's economy you have this word, "Not by power nor by might but by my Spirit says the Lord of Hosts". This is a complete contrast to the excesses of human authority and power.

When those filled with hatred of Christ sought out the court and civil and military powers to carry out it's will you had another expression of beast power.

Christians are being wholesale slaughtered in many parts of the world today. Hatred and exercise of political, governmental and or military power to carry out the actions driven by this hatred, wow... is becoming usual in the world today.

the Authority of Christ and the authority of human governments and organizations bears no resemblance.

the final conflict will arrive soon enough.

i cannot second guess God in who and how this will take form, but it is a repeated experience throughout history and will be repeated again.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

i cannot second guess God in who and how this will take form, but it is a repeated experience throughout history and will be repeated again.

Much to the chagrin of those who misunderstand that the Lord they serve has a formidable foe, capable of taking advantage of saint or sinner alike who does not put their problems in the hands of Him Who never makes a mistake when yielding to the wishes of those He loves.

"The safest place in the world to be is in the middle of God’s will. It doesn’t matter if you are surrounded by war, typhoons, tornadoes, volcanoes, or earthquakes; if you’re in the middle of God’s will, you have nothing to worry about. The Bible says, “The world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever” (1 John 2:17 NKJV). If you are following God’s will, you have eternal life."Bible info.com

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gerr]

That part of the quote seems to support what JoMo claims, but did you read the rest of what I quoted?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes,

I read it all. I only commented on one part.

[Gerr]

Well, the other two portions support what I was saying, that's why I said, make up your own mind about it.

[hch]

I see Dan 7 and Rev 13 as a prediction that came true. I see it as a message for people to know that Christ/God was real, for the doubters and worriers. Also as an assurance.

...

I still do not fear the RCC or see them as anyone to fear. If God be for us, who can be against us?

The more I study the Scriptures and SOP,

the more I see that Rev 13 was fulfilled twice:

The papacy had its 42-months (from 538-1798) and then Pius VI lost the kingdom.

And John-Paul II (the pope who received the deadly wound and lived) had his 42-months from 9/11/01 to 2 April 2005.

And I don't worry so much about the RCC either.

It is apostate Protestantism in the USA that is the last power that is to wage war against God's people.

And God can take care of us on that front too (if we don't get confused and join them first).

[M. T. Cross]

Thats some pretty broad ranging 42 month ideas........

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Thats some pretty broad ranging 42 month ideas........

I have a totally different view point that I've posted several times previously. In short summary, I think the 42 months that are the literal fulfillment of the 42 months (rather than an application) are yet to happen...