Non-salvational?

[joeb]

I see this very often on this site. What does this really mean?

We live in a world in which Satan holds sway. His ideas rule. His concepts are fully accepted. As Christians we are told that we are strangers in this land, that we do not fit in for we uphold the standards, ideas, and concepts of God.

Satan is God's mortal enemy. Everything he does, thinks, everything he is is at variance with God. Everything he does, everything he puts forth has one idea behind it--the overthrow of God's kingdom and His destruction.

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan. Since all ideas coming from God and all ideas coming from Satan lead to opposite conclusions and opposite ends what is a non-salvational idea/concept? Can we take part of Satan's ideas and live by them and part of God's ideas and live by them at the same time? Is this possible? What is the endpoint of holding onto some ideas originating from Satan?

Can we be for both God and Satan? Can we agree with both?

I don't think there are any non-salvational issues for the reasons I've given above. Either an idea comes from God and leads to God and salvation or it doesn't. Why? Because we don't live in a world in which neutral ideas exist. There is no neutral third party.

[Woody]

Not everything is as black and white as you propose.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan.

I think there is a 3rd source - our own head.

IMO, there are non-salvational issues. Is belief that salvation is only found through Jesus Christ a salvational issue? Probably (for me it is). Is acceptanse of EGW as an ifallible prophet a salvational issue? No; or else no one but SDA's will be in the Kingdom (that would be boring). Is eating pork or shellfish a salvational issue? I don't think so.

Furthermore, what is salvational for you may not be salvational for me. For example, if you are not an alcoholic or habitual drunk, alcohol may not be a salvational issue for you. If I am a raving sot who chooses continual alcohol abuse over Jesus, it may be a salvational issue for me.

God looks at our hearts - not our external behavior or our denominational biases. We all have different heart issues; so why wouldn't we all have specific salvational issues?

[joeb]

Quote:

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan.

I think there is a 3rd source - our own head.

IMO, there are non-salvational issues. Is belief that salvation is only found through Jesus Christ a salvational issue? Probably (for me it is). Is acceptanse of EGW as an ifallible prophet a salvational issue? No; or else no one but SDA's will be in the Kingdom (that would be boring). Is eating pork or shellfish a salvational issue? I don't think so.

Furthermore, what is salvational for you may not be salvational for me. For example, if you are not an alcoholic or habitual drunk, alcohol may not be a salvational issue for you. If I am a raving sot who chooses continual alcohol abuse over Jesus, it may be a salvational issue for me.

God looks at our hearts - not our external behavior or our denominational biases. We all have different heart issues; so why wouldn't we all have specific salvational issues?

I would disagree with you on your "3rd source". What does the Bible tell us about ourselves? Our hearts are desperately wicked.... Is that a neutral source? I don't think so. Anything as selfish as we are--the Bible tells us our human nature is fallen and thus selfish which is the antithesis of God's nature and exactly like Satan's nature.

Let's take your example of Ellen White out to it's logical conclusion and for purposes of argument let's say she is inspired just as the Bible is inspired. Now, let's say I reject something that she says is important, and continue to reject that right up to the end of my life. What have I done? I have rejected God's word to me and in doing so I have accepted Satan's word in place of it. Is that a salvational issue? Yes, because no matter how many times God led me up to that point I said no, and in doing so I rejected God. You doubt that? That's exactly what God told Samuel when the Israelites rejected his advice and instruction that God had given him to give to them. God told Samuel that they hadn't rejected him, they had rejected God Himself. Was that a salvational issue? You bet it was. Rejecting God is always a salvational issue if that rejection is carried on to the end of our lives. We have the option to change our minds up to that point, but there is an end to that and that end is entirely about our salvation.

Was it a salvational issue for King Saul when he decided to offer sacrifices in place of Samuel? Yup.

We don't always know or understand the paths we will take when reject God's word to us so any issue in which we reject God's word to us, and in so doing reject God, it is a salvational issue.

[Samie]

...

Let's take your example of Ellen White out to it's logical conclusion and for purposes of argument let's say she is inspired just as the Bible is inspired. ...

I was expecting you would likewise tackle this side of the issue: What if, for purposes of argument, she is NOT?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan.

I do not agree with the above. I will suggest that we cannot give God and Satan responsibility for everything. We have some responsibility ourselves. Yes, we are corrupt and estranged from God. Out of that, and our inate desire to be independent, we produce our own ideas that do not directly come form either God or Satan.

The Bible deals with issues that are at the core of salvation and critical to our salvation. But, it also has much more that is not critical to our salvation, on which people may differ and the Bible is not clear and convincing.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I will suggest that we cannot give God and Satan responsibility for everything. We have some responsibility ourselves.

Created in the image of God, not as robots. Freedom of choice, meaning forming our own thoughts and ideas. What a horrible thought, God or Lucifer are responsible for everything! Why be alive?

[M. T. Cross]

I see this very often on this site. What does this really mean?

We live in a world in which Satan holds sway. His ideas rule. His concepts are fully accepted. As Christians we are told that we are strangers in this land, that we do not fit in for we uphold the standards, ideas, and concepts of God.

Satan is God's mortal enemy. Everything he does, thinks, everything he is is at variance with God. Everything he does, everything he puts forth has one idea behind it--the overthrow of God's kingdom and His destruction.

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan. Since all ideas coming from God and all ideas coming from Satan lead to opposite conclusions and opposite ends what is a non-salvational idea/concept? Can we take part of Satan's ideas and live by them and part of God's ideas and live by them at the same time? Is this possible? What is the endpoint of holding onto some ideas originating from Satan?

Can we be for both God and Satan? Can we agree with both?

I don't think there are any non-salvational issues for the reasons I've given above. Either an idea comes from God and leads to God and salvation or it doesn't. Why? Because we don't live in a world in which neutral ideas exist. There is no neutral third party.

So much for free will, free thought and the idea that we were created as intelligent beings capable of thinking, reasoning and any sense of self responsibility.

One would think that this god of yours would have been a weee tad more clear in his biblical message if there was to be no grey area.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Let's take your example of Ellen White out to it's logical conclusion and for purposes of argument

Let's look at another example. EGW and the Church take a very dim view of alcohol use. They make it sound like it's the devil's potion; and that people who drink are going to hell.

Jesus made a bunch of wine at Cana for people who were already drunk, so they could continue partying. According to your logic, Jesus was paving their way to hell. I don't buy the theory that He made grape juice. People don't drink grape juice for 3 days straight.

I agree with Gregory and M.T. that God and Satan are are NOT the only origins of our thoughts; I agree they are the origin for many; but I am capable of original thought, also. When I resolve a technical issue at work, It's not all divine revelation. I don't need divine revelation to tell me what to wear or what to eat.

[8thdaypriest]

Well said Joe.

[8thdaypriest]

There is only ONE salvational issue - how we as individually respond to the Spirit of God. The Spirit convicts individuals about different things, at different times in their lives.

The Spirit hardened Pharoah's heart - HOW? By convicting him.

The harder Pharoah resisted - the harder his heart became.

Pharoah's salvational issue was his blatant resistance against the LORD's "Let my people go."

One can be convicted concerning an action we are contemplating, or an action we are resisting, or concerning a doctrine we do not want to teach (cause it would be sooooo inconvenient), or about a person we need offer an apology to.

[LifeHiscost]

There is only ONE salvational issue - how we as individually respond to the Spirit of God. The Spirit convicts individuals about different things, at different times in their lives.

The Spirit hardened Pharoah's heart - HOW? By convicting him.

The harder Pharoah resisted - the harder his heart became.

Pharoah's salvational issue was his blatant resistance against the LORD's "Let my people go."

One can be convicted concerning an action we are contemplating, or an action we are resisting, or concerning a doctrine we do not want to teach (cause it would be sooooo inconvenient), or about a person we need offer an apology to.

Profound wisdom. "...and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God"Eph 2:8 NASB

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

There is only ONE salvational issue - how we as individually respond to the Spirit of God.

Amen! The Spirit will lead us into all truth.(John 16:13)

[joeb]

Quote:

All thoughts and ideas in this world originate from one of two sources: God or Satan.

I do not agree with the above. I will suggest that we cannot give God and Satan responsibility for everything. We have some responsibility ourselves. Yes, we are corrupt and estranged from God. Out of that, and our inate desire to be independent, we produce our own ideas that do not directly come form either God or Satan.

The Bible deals with issues that are at the core of salvation and critical to our salvation. But, it also has much more that is not critical to our salvation, on which people may differ and the Bible is not clear and convincing.

Gregory,

From whom did our fallen nature originate? Is it independent of God and the devil, or is it completely in line with one or the other of the two great powers of our world?

From where do all impulses to do good and right come from? What happens to this earth when God's restraining spirit is removed?

So the point is, if our hearts are desperately wicked, as Jeremiah tells us they are, and everything that is good on this earth comes from God, how do we originate anything independent of God or the devil?

You're going to have to explain this to me for I cannot accept what you are postulating. All right thinking--unselfish, holy, righteous thinking--comes only from God. All the rest originates from the devil. Or do you imagine that your mental powers are so great that you come up with thoughts that have not already occurred to either God or the devil and that they have already put into motion? I cannot imagine that. I'm going to "outsmart" the being that God created to be the #3 being in the universe in all things ----wisdom, power, smarts, glory---- or God Himself?

You and I are sadly outclassed. We're not even in the discussion for who is the smartest, most original, most unique, etc.... Doesn't the Bible even tell us outright that there is nothing new under the sun? Doesn't that "nothing" included thoughts and ideas? It sure says that to me for the word "nothing" is very all-encompassing. It doesn't allow any wiggle room at all.

[joeb]

So much for free will, free thought and the idea that we were created as intelligent beings capable of thinking, reasoning and any sense of self responsibility.

One would think that this god of yours would have been a weee tad more clear in his biblical message if there was to be no grey area.

Not at all. You're mistaking what I'm saying.

We, as in the human race, were created with the ability to choose between right and wrong on our dime, so to speak. The plan of salvation restores to us the ability to choose once again. That doesn't mean we are more original, smarter or any such thing than either God or the devil. We are outclassed in every way. We're dumber, less original, less powerful, etc.... And we're greatly outclassed in all those things. All we can do is choose who we are going to serve. Are we going to serve one who only brings life, goodness, freedom, etc..., or are we going to serve someone who wants to rule over us with cruelty and treat us as his slaves, his property?

That's our choice. Ultimately we're going to be completely aligned with one or the other of the two, and at that point we will have lost or freedom if we have chosen the devil. Look at our world. All the death, pain, suffering, and cruelty you see comes from him. Take a look at the addict who kills himself with drugs even though he'd rather live. That's the sort of end choosing Satan will bring to all who choose him. Only God can bring life, and apart from Him there is no life.

[joeb]

There is only ONE salvational issue - how we as individually respond to the Spirit of God. The Spirit convicts individuals about different things, at different times in their lives.[b/]

The Spirit hardened Pharoah's heart - HOW? By convicting him.

The harder Pharoah resisted - the harder his heart became.

Pharoah's salvational issue was his blatant resistance against the LORD's "Let my people go."

One can be convicted concerning an action we are contemplating, or an action we are resisting, or concerning a doctrine we do not want to teach (cause it would be sooooo inconvenient), or about a person we need offer an apology to.

We don't agree a lot, but with this we're completely agreed. You highlighted the only thing that matters. Thus, there are no non-salvational issues for all things in life fall under this umbrella. Only one path leads to God, all the rest leads away from Him. By that I mean what you said above. We either choose to follow the Spirit in all His leading, or we don't.

Ellen White said something really profound in this area. She said error lies very close to truth for a long time, but in the end it will be very clear how far apart error and truth are. Thus what we choose to believe about all things spiritual is very important for it puts us on a path from which we may not choose to leave because we will be too personally invested in it.

In another thread JoeMo highlighted this issue in his questions about what he's been choosing because it "fit" him and was comfortable. Does God lead us down a path of comfort, or does He lead us down one in which the fire burns out the dross? Thus the issue of salvation in all we choose to believe.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So the point is, if our hearts are desperately wicked, as Jeremiah tells us they are, and everything that is good on this earth comes from God, how do we originate anything independent of God or the devil?

Are you claiming that we are just robots of either God or satan? I don't buy it. Yes, the devil may implant a thought; but I still choose to dwell on it or reject it. The Spirit can implant a thought; but I still choose to accept or reject it. The very act of choosing which one to believe is our own thought - not God's or satan's. Satan may implant the temptation to - say - commit adultery. Once I choose todwell on the thought in my head and take it into my heart, it is my mind that fixes on the fantasy, plans out the rendezvous ; and my mind (and other parts of my body) carry out the deed. OR, I reject the thought outright, turn my mind to God, and it's oveLet's say you're correct - that all of our thoughts originate with God or satan. I still choose who to listen to; and that gives me power. Furthermore, once we submit to jesus, satan only has the power over us that we choose to give him.NOTHING can separate me from the love of Christ except myself. That gives me power. My free will is my most omnipotent power base. I can freely choose to ally myself to God and tune into His thoughts and be invincible, or I can choose to align myself to sata and his thoughts, and be lost. I make that choice several times every day. It's still my choice.

I don't need divine revelation to tell me "2+2=4" or "i before e except after c..." I'm perfectly capable of discerning those truths without supernatural intervention.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The very act of choosing which one to believe is our own thought - not God's or satan's.

When you are out from under the condemnation of the Law, saved by grace, the only way one can stay that way is by releasing the battle enforced by the enemy of souls, and relinquish it to the One capable of winning the struggle.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood ...

... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against

powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world"

Ephesians 6:12

"... I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same

brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. ..." John 15:5

All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD

saves; for the battle is the LORD's, ... 1 Samuel 17:47

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

You're going to have to explain this to me for I cannot accept what you are postulating.

God gave us freedom to chose.

That freedom can be nurtured for good and/or for evil.

In heaven, Satan, originated his own evil thoughts. So also we can nurture our evil nature to develop and grow its evil thoughts. Satan may be responsible for planting that seed of our evil nature. But, we may nurture and grow it. Satan may fertilize it so that it develops a sense of evil beyond what it is today. But, we have some responsibility.

The saying: "Satan made me do it," is simply false, sometimes. We have some responsibility.

Quote:

All right thinking--unselfish, holy, righteous thinking--comes only from God. All the rest originates from the devil.

You tell us that every thought that is not righteous, holy & unselfish originates from the devil. False. We often engage in thinking that is neither holy nor evil. It may simply come from our own mind. We generate much of our own thoughts. I may think that 2 + 2 = 4, or I may think that it equals 7. I may be accurate. I may be wrong. But, my thinking is neither holy nor evil.

I may think that gold may be transmuted into hydrogen due to my belief that the atomic structure of gold contains a particle which I have named hydroxenase. I may be correct and I may be wrong, but it just may be that my thought originated in my mind without the intervention of either God or Satan.

I may think, as was once said to me, that a SDA pastor should always preach in black and white. That may be correct. It may be incorrect. But, that thought likely originated in my mind, and did not come form either God or Satan. This is all part of the freedom that God gave us.

Recently we had a family over to our home for a meal. One of their children has been disabled from birth. That child's brain did not develop in the typical fashion. As a result, that person is physically and intellectually handicapped. Don't tell me that every thought that person has comes directly from either God of Satan. Much of the thinking of that person comes from what happened in brain development prior to birth. You know what, a spiritual experience on the part of that person is not going to make it all right. It is not going to correct everything that went wrong.

The bottom line is: When God gave us freedom to chose, God also gave us the ability to independently chose, as did Satan in heaven, evil.

Yes, Satan is involved. Yes, Satan has responsibility. So, also do we individually.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

There is only ONE salvational issue - how we as individually respond to the Spirit of God. The Spirit convicts individuals about different things, at different times in their lives.[b/]

The Spirit hardened Pharoah's heart - HOW? By convicting him.

The harder Pharoah resisted - the harder his heart became.

Pharoah's salvational issue was his blatant resistance against the LORD's "Let my people go."

One can be convicted concerning an action we are contemplating, or an action we are resisting, or concerning a doctrine we do not want to teach (cause it would be sooooo inconvenient), or about a person we need offer an apology to.

We don't agree a lot, but with this we're completely agreed. You highlighted the only thing that matters. Thus, there are no non-salvational issues for all things in life fall under this umbrella. Only one path leads to God, all the rest leads away from Him. By that I mean what you said above. We either choose to follow the Spirit in all His leading, or we don't.

Ellen White said something really profound in this area. She said error lies very close to truth for a long time, but in the end it will be very clear how far apart error and truth are. Thus what we choose to believe about all things spiritual is very important for it puts us on a path from which we may not choose to leave because we will be too personally invested in it.

In another thread JoeMo highlighted this issue in his questions about what he's been choosing because it "fit" him and was comfortable. Does God lead us down a path of comfort, or does He lead us down one in which the fire burns out the dross? Thus the issue of salvation in all we choose to believe.

A big to both posts! I especially like Paragraph #2 in joeb's. How often do we not realise the spiritual depth of all we do everyday?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

We often engage in thinking that is neither holy nor evil.

"whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Romans 14:23 KJV

While the context of this is about what one might eat, the way it is expressed indicates a general principle dealing with a persons motivation. As such my gender could make it sinful to put on a pair of full legged nylon stockings, even though the act in itself is not evil.

The same could apply to eating a tomato or a watermelon. The act of either is not evil of itself. OTOH if I'm in a contest of who can eat the most watermelon in the shortest period of time, it could be an evil activity.

I'm aware of a fairly recent case of drinking pure, clean water in a contest, the object of the contest being to see who could drink the most in the alloted period of time. The woman who won the contest, lost her life within a short period of time afterward, directly attributable to the amount of water she drank.

What does that have to do with sinful or faithful conduct? Perhaps this below could answer that question for those willing to let God control their personal behavior, which would entail of course, trust in Him doing a better job than we know our sinful nature motivates us toward.

"Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it." Proverbs 25:16 KJV

In America we have been moved from a society that has been moved from "needs" motivation to "wants" motivation. This has been largely resulting from the selfishness of making money to acquire what others have. You decide whether this is thinking coming from God or the devil.

"Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"Hebrews 13:5 NASB Bold emphasis theirs' LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I'm aware of a fairly recent case of drinking pure, clean water in a contest, the object of the contest being to see who could drink the most in the alloted period of time. The woman who won the contest, lost her life within a short period of time afterward, directly attributable to the amount of water she drank.

It is a well known medical fact that drinking an excessive amount of water can lead to death.

It is so well known that I find it hard to believe that such a contest would be sponsored.

Could you please document that such actually occurred?

[LifeHiscost]

It is so well known that I find it hard to believe that such a contest would be sponsored.

Could you please document that such actually occurred?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, drinking to much water can kill. That is so well known that any such formal contest would have clinical personnel monitoring it to make certain that people did not drink a lethal amount.

I see you mention the LD 50 figure. That stands for "Lethal Dose, 50%. That is the dosage at which 50% of typical people (where people are involved) will die. The LD 50 figure is used in many kinds of data and clinical medicine.

[LifeHiscost]

This could have prevented these deaths at the outset.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

2 Peter 1:4-8 KJV Underlined mine LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!