Non-salvational?

[joeb]

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You're going to have to explain this to me for I cannot accept what you are postulating.

God gave us freedom to chose.

That freedom can be nurtured for good and/or for evil.

In heaven, Satan, originated his own evil thoughts. So also we can nurture our evil nature to develop and grow its evil thoughts. Satan may be responsible for planting that seed of our evil nature. But, we may nurture and grow it. Satan may fertilize it so that it develops a sense of evil beyond what it is today. But, we have some responsibility.

The saying: "Satan made me do it," is simply false, sometimes. We have some responsibility.

You tell us that every thought that is not righteous, holy & unselfish originates from the devil. False. We often engage in thinking that is neither holy nor evil. It may simply come from our own mind. We generate much of our own thoughts. I may think that 2 + 2 = 4, or I may think that it equals 7. I may be accurate. I may be wrong. But, my thinking is neither holy nor evil.

I may think that gold may be transmuted into hydrogen due to my belief that the atomic structure of gold contains a particle which I have named hydroxenase. I may be correct and I may be wrong, but it just may be that my thought originated in my mind without the intervention of either God or Satan.

I may think, as was once said to me, that a SDA pastor should always preach in black and white. That may be correct. It may be incorrect. But, that thought likely originated in my mind, and did not come form either God or Satan. This is all part of the freedom that God gave us.

Recently we had a family over to our home for a meal. One of their children has been disabled from birth. That child's brain did not develop in the typical fashion. As a result, that person is physically and intellectually handicapped. Don't tell me that every thought that person has comes directly from either God of Satan. Much of the thinking of that person comes from what happened in brain development prior to birth. You know what, a spiritual experience on the part of that person is not going to make it all right. It is not going to correct everything that went wrong.

The bottom line is: When God gave us freedom to chose, God also gave us the ability to independently chose, as did Satan in heaven, evil.

Yes, Satan is involved. Yes, Satan has responsibility. So, also do we individually.

I'll just ask you one question from your entire post and I think it will help to make clear the point I'm making.

During the Middle Ages the alchemists started thinking that they could make gold out lead. What lead to all that research and effort? A single word tells us all about it: Greed. Doesn't the Bible tell us to be satisfied with what we have? Where does the desire to research into making gold from other elements come from? From violating the word of God. Is that not sinful? Context is always king. No one is going to spend a ton of time thinking about transmuting another element into gold without the excessive drive of greed.

[joeb]

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So the point is, if our hearts are desperately wicked, as Jeremiah tells us they are, and everything that is good on this earth comes from God, how do we originate anything independent of God or the devil?

Are you claiming that we are just robots of either God or satan? I don't buy it. Yes, the devil may implant a thought; but I still choose to dwell on it or reject it. The Spirit can implant a thought; but I still choose to accept or reject it. The very act of choosing which one to believe is our own thought - not God's or satan's. Satan may implant the temptation to - say - commit adultery. Once I choose todwell on the thought in my head and take it into my heart, it is my mind that fixes on the fantasy, plans out the rendezvous ; and my mind (and other parts of my body) carry out the deed. OR, I reject the thought outright, turn my mind to God, and it's oveLet's say you're correct - that all of our thoughts originate with God or satan. I still choose who to listen to; and that gives me power. Furthermore, once we submit to jesus, satan only has the power over us that we choose to give him.NOTHING can separate me from the love of Christ except myself. That gives me power. My free will is my most omnipotent power base. I can freely choose to ally myself to God and tune into His thoughts and be invincible, or I can choose to align myself to sata and his thoughts, and be lost. I make that choice several times every day. It's still my choice.

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I don't need divine revelation to tell me "2+2=4" or "i before e except after c..." I'm perfectly capable of discerning those truths without supernatural intervention.

I'll just respond to what I bolded to keep my post short and I think it will help you see what I'm trying, so far unsuccessfully, to say.

I completely disagree with you on what I bolded. Jesus + faith + surrender = salvation. Could you have recognized this formula on your own?

As to 2 + 2 = 4, where did the ability do that math come from? Did you create those smarts, or are they on loan to you from God?