Is Liberty safe?

[Gail]

How much freedom is good for people?

[LifeHiscost]

How much freedom is good for people?

Good question. If we take eternity into consideration, total freedom would be my response since those in the Kingdom will be basking in the love and light of a beneficient Father who even releases those who don't get there from their less than happy existence, whereas those who have learned to color within the lines find there greatest happiness in that experience.

OTOH freedom here in this world is largely an illusion based on whether we get all we strive for.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.John 8:32,36 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

Of course it isn't, however since God is love his character requires freedom for his creatures. The Great Controversy is where the universe decided whether they want freedom with the law of self sacrificing love, or if they want to live for themselves and use external control psychology on others.

[Gail]

I was just thinking of how much of a risk that is, for anyone, really, to allow those under his/her care absolute freedom. But love trusts, doesn't it?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But love trusts, doesn't it?

And since I've heard, trust being an attribute of the Godhead, we are told in the last days God would withdraw His Spirit from off the earth, we see reflected in earth's society all over the world the results of that withdrawal.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Tom Wetmore]

Since from a spiritual standpoint perfect love is at stake, absolute freedom is essential. Any restriction or barrier or inducement to free choice makes perfect love more difficult and in doubt. Do I love to avoid God's displeasure tha might get me punished or do I love him to gain his approval and a possible reward? Can I love him even if I receive neither punishment nor reward? What if no matter what I do, I get both or only reward or only punishment?

Jesus said that God takes care of both the just and the unjust, those love him and those who don't. And the impossible question of why do bad things happen to good people should tell us that evil is indiscriminate. And we see all around us bad people living long and successful lives. None of us is untouched by evil and none of us get out of this alive. But all of us still have life.

Maybe God is trying to tell us something different than we have thought all along. Maybe the indiscriminate fate that does not seem to accurately correlate with our behavior and our real attitude toward God is saying simply that God loves us no matter what and that is what he wants in return. God loves us regardless of whether we "punish" him by withholding our love or "reward" him with our love.

I have pondered whether I can trust/love God enough that if in the end he tells me I cannot live for eternity that I can accept that and be at peace and still die loving/trusting him?

Free choice = perfect love.

[Gail]

Great post, Tom, and it evoked the thought that perfect love invites love in response. Because it is making itself vulnerable by granting that complete freedom, love will accept it and respond in gratitude and not betray the trust.

[joeb]

How much freedom is good for people?

This is a loaded question for many people. Why? Because many people mistake license for freedom.

People want the license to do drugs. People want to the license to act any way they want sexually. People want the license to be extravagant.

That is not freedom, but that's what many people see as "freedom".

[Gail]

So, what is the difference between freedom and license? Adding responsibility to the license = true freedom? What makes the higher ground?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

" gain his approval and a possible reward?"

There are many who see working for reward or approval as making a person, at the very least, a second rate Christian. I find that somewhat distrustful of God's acceptance of man in his fallen condition. Else why would He hold out reward in Revelation to the seven churches for "job well done", seemingly as incentives, along with many other places such as rewards for the keeping of His commandments, whether the Ten or statutes and ordinances?

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So, what is the difference between freedom and license

True freedom involves risk - no doubt. True freedom in Christ is principled freedom based on the law of love. If our acts of freedom are motivated by selflessness and love, that is true freedom. If our freedom is unprincipled and selfish or destructive, it is license.

[joeb]

Quote:

So, what is the difference between freedom and license

True freedom involves risk - no doubt. True freedom in Christ is principled freedom based on the law of love. If our acts of freedom are motivated by selflessness and love, that is true freedom.

Quote:

If our freedom is unprincipled and selfish or destructive, it is license.

JoeMo,

I think you did a good job of making the difference between license and freedom pretty clear, especially in what I bolded. I have a little to add, but only way of clarification, not in a change of ideas.

I think this is true for kinds of freedom. To live in liberty takes dedication, vigilance, the desire/ability to recognize that your freedom ends where the other guy's nose begins--so to speak. In other words, freedom requires self-discipline and self-restraint. To give one's self up to self-indulgence in all its forms isn't liberty or freedom, and it's license and self-indulgence that many people want to call freedom.

Self-indulgence only destroys people, communities and nations. Real liberty builds and strengthens people, communities and nations.

[Gail]

If one lives only to indulge oneself, isn't that not an addiction or a chain rather than freedom?

[Liz]

I would call it an addiction, and not true freedom. Especially when the object of your addiction pulls you away from every one and everything that you loved previously.

No one wants to be around someone who is so self-centered.

[Kevin H]

In the 18th century there were two revolutions based on two different views of freedom. The American Revolution based on freedom through good laws, and the French based on freedom through no laws. Interestingly the later became the most strict and formed into communism.

Also, the Great Controversy is based on either freedom based on the law of self sacrificing love in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other, vs. freedom from law.

[Aliensanctuary]

We can see what a mess this world has been in since Earth was colonized. Humans cannot be trusted with freedom, because, without fail, they have abused it, and instead, chose and practiced evil. Either Self must die, we must become powerless slaves of tyrannical masters, or both.

[Gerr]

Freedom is for responsible people. That's why irresponsible people are restricted behind bars.

[Gerr]

So, what is the difference between freedom and license? Adding responsibility to the license = true freedom? What makes the higher ground?

There is a paradox here. License, i.e. action without moral restrictions, actually leads to abject slavery, whereas obedience to moral restrictions leads to freedom.

[Gail]

We can see what a mess this world has been in since Earth was colonized. Humans cannot be trusted with freedom, because, without fail, they have abused it, and instead, chose and practiced evil. Either Self must die, we must become powerless slaves of tyrannical masters, or both.

Bingo!

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

So, what is the difference between freedom and license? Adding responsibility to the license = true freedom? What makes the higher ground?

There is a paradox here. License, i.e. action without moral restrictions, actually leads to abject slavery, whereas obedience to moral restrictions leads to freedom.

Like so many of God's ways- they are opposite to where man naturally tends to go. Great observation, Gerry!

[Gail]

So now, getting back to the OP (the French say, Retournons à nos moutons, Let's return to our sheep)-

In what context is freedom safe in human hands?

We have seen the results of the American and the French revolutions: in America you have multinational companies that are based there but exploit environment and people to grow ever richer, yet medical care and education are progressively becoming out of reach to more of its citizens;

And in France it became, as Kevin mentioned, socialist. So freedom is not total freedom for either because of the limits imposed by immorality.

[LifeHiscost]

And in France it became, as Kevin mentioned, socialist. So freedom is not total freedom for either because of the limits imposed by immorality.

Just to give fairly recent, past experience of social engineering by the fallen race, it would seem to me, only the promises of the Word can be trusted for total freedom __________

http://news.yahoo.com/rare-diary-gives-details-life-under-khmer-rouge-060924806.html

It takes time to make anything, except perhaps when our Father speaks them into existence, and even the best of born again Christians are a work in progress.

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" 2 John 1:31-32 KJV

[joeb]

Just to give fairly recent, past experience of social engineering by the fallen race, it would seem to me, only the promises of the Word can be trusted for total freedom __________

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" 2 John 1:31-32 KJV

I would absolutely agree with you, LHC. Only in the power of the Word can we find the ability and desire to live with the rights of others always in mind, and, only in the power of the Word can we find the power to restrain ourselves from hurting others.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Only in the power of the Word can we find the ability and desire to live with the rights of others always in mind, and, only in the power of the Word can we find the power to restrain ourselves from hurting others.

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."Eph 4:1-6 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[lazarus]

In the 18th century there were two revolutions based on two different views of freedom. The American Revolution based on freedom through good laws, and the French based on freedom through no laws. Interestingly the later became the most strict and formed into communism.

?? Curious perspective, but then.......

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.

Napoleon Bonaparte.