For those who do not drink Alcohol.

[LifeHiscost]

No need to worry about context, I guess, when all you are doing is trying to prove a point...

Like I said, let the Spirit lead.

 

…2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.…2 Timothy 4

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Tom Wetmore]

I think that cuts both ways...

The Adventist ear needs to be tickled with what maintains consistency with our teaching, even if it isn't consistent with the facts. Who is turning away their ears to myths?

As long as one believes that alcohol consumption is a moral issue, any amount has to be a sin. So the myth is created that Jesus living in the first century as a Jewish man had to have successfully avoided any amount of alcohol in order to live a sinless life. So every aspect of reading and interpreting Scripture has to be consistent with that and support the myth that Passover was celebrated with only fresh grape juice, that the Greek word that only means "intoxicate" used in Scripture to describe the effect of the kind of wine Jesus created has to mean something else. It also ignores a plain reading of Jesus' own statements, and descriptions of events that indicate he most likely partook of even weak or diluted fermented wine as was the common practice of the day. It also perpetuates the myths that the common method of preserving grape juice among the Jews had to be some way that didn't involve fermentation. It simply has to ignore a lot of inconsistent evidence in order to maintain consistency with the moral question. And any attempt to point out contrary evidence is met with denial and even maligning anyone who dares to suggest anything of the sort.

It reminds me of the elaborate extra-Biblical narrative that surrounds many false doctrines we lambast that are held by other churches. Do you see the problem for us in promoting our beliefs using the very same methods we rail against?

[Tom Wetmore]

I have encountered the very similar pattern for those who maintain that eating meat, even clean/kosher meat, is a sin. Those people maintain that those living in the end of time that are saved at the second coming will be vegetarians, that they must be to be aimlessly perfect. It takes off on the misumderstood statement of EGW about perfectly reflecting the character of Christ at the end of time. I have even had such people argue that Jesus didn't eat meat. Yes. You read that correctly. Point out unequivocal evidence fromScriptuee to the contrary and it really messes with the whole idea of eating meat is a sin. Then the myth building begins to explain that he really didn't eat it, jus pretended to take the fish he asked for after his ressurection, or that he grilled fro his disciples breakfast. Or that it wasn't sinful then, even though it is now, or at some indefinite time in the future. What ever happend to God's unchageable law!?!? If it was not sin for Jesus back then, it is not sin for us now. How fair is it for God to require more of us than he did for his own Son, or any other generation for that matter?

[bonnie]

. What ever happend to God's unchageable law!?!? If it was not sin for Jesus back then, it is not sin for us now. How fair is it for God to require more of us than he did for his own Son, or any other generation for that matter?

I don't really care who drinks alcohol or not. That isn't my problem with those that believe Jesus drank/produced alcoholic beverage. 

With this....What ever happend to God's unchageable law!?!? If it was not sin for Jesus back then, it is not sin for us now..........

yet I don't see those that believe alcohol in moderation is biblical believe we should begin serving such at wedding celebrations or for communion. Why not?

As you said,if it was not a sin for Jesus,then it is not a sin for us

[Tom Wetmore]

Consider the elaborate mythology that surrounds other false ideas and doctrines perpetuated by other churches. State of the dead... The immaculate conception... Original sin... Just to name a few.

As I have said repeatedly, I am not trying to change our teachings or to justify divergent behavior or lifestyle, mine or anyone else's. I am just trying to get people to more carefully consider the basis and rationale for what they teach and practice. If you build on a shaken foundation, the whole house can't withstand testing. There is plenty of information and evidence, far more convincing to people today, of the merits of the lifestyle and diet teachings of Adventism, without using poor Bibilical study and interpretation methods to support them.

[bonnie]

Consider the elaborate mythology that surrounds other false ideas and doctrines perpetuated by other churches. State of the dead... The immaculate conception... Original sin... Just to name a few.

As I have said repeatedly, I am not trying to change our teachings or to justify divergent behavior or lifestyle, mine or anyone else's. I am just trying to get people to more carefully consider the basis and rationale for what they teach and practice. If you build on a shaken foundation, the whole house can't withstand testing. There is plenty of information and evidence, far more convincing to people today, of the merits of the lifestyle and diet teachings of Adventism, without using poor Bibilical study and interpretation methods to support them.

Other false ideas are not relevant.

Did Jesus as our example produce/drink alcoholic beverage? You seem to believe He did. Jesus cannot be wrong, so why wouldn't the church change it's teaching?

Most that I know that believe alcohol consumption is biblically wrong, don't consider our Example a shaky foundation

[JoeMo]

Tom says: "  I have even had such people argue that Jesus didn't eat meat."

 

I was at a meeting once where people were proclaiming the sinfulness of meat; and someone pointed out that Jesus ate meat. Those holding the meeting responded that people back then did not have the light that we have now.  That's when I left.

 

I have to agree with everything Tom has pointed out is His previous several posts.  At the non-Adventist church I go to, they have a choice of wine or grape juice for communion.  Nobody cares which line you get into.

 

IMO, the Bible condemns drunkenness; it does not condemn all consumption of alcohol.  I personally don't believe it would have been possible for Jesus to avoid consuming at least diluted alcoholic wine at feasts and festivals, especially if He was eating with big shots or the "sinful" masses.  He accepted wine at the crucifixion.

 

If you think having a beer with your burger or wine with your pasta is wrong,  don't do it.  Personally, I'm having a nice cabernet with my roast lamb at Christmas dinner.

[Lauralea]

 "They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." Matthew 27:34 in regard to Jesus at the crucifixion. (Vinegar can be wine that has soured.)

[CoAspen]

Well.............not sure what that has to do with the topic......but I wouldn't drink it either! Vinegar! no way!!

 

[Tom Wetmore]

 "They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." Matthew 27:34 in regard to Jesus at the crucifixion. (Vinegar can be wine that has soured.)

 

Read John's account (the only gospel writer at the cross).  He indicates that Jesus took the offered sponge of sour wine.  A carefully reading of all the gospel accounts seem to suggest that Jesus was offered the sour wine twice.  The first time he declined. The second time he took it.  There is some evidence that the practice was not so much to quench thirst, but that the sour wine ( exact translation not clear... could be vinegar, could be old cheap wine [grog] consumed by the soldiers.  It was diluted and/or mixed with spices to make it palatable) was apparently mixed with gall, a natural substance that was used as a pain killer.   

[Joshua-]

I grew up in a non-denominational christian family. I developed a desire for drugs and alcohol at about the age of 13.

 

I've been addicted to drugs and alcohol most of my life. When I became interested in spiritual things I had far more conviction than ever that I needed to leave those things behind, the conviction was always there but it was very background and I usually put it entirely out of my mind by getting intoxicated.

 

I remember at first when I made the choice to stop, it was hard, for weeks even. All of the people I knew did drugs and drank, so I had to stop hanging out with them entirely. It was hard. I lost everyone in my life that I cared about and it was hard to even look at a bottle of alcohol without being tempted-- I'd have to avoid those aisles entirely at the grocery store so I wouldn't see them and be tempted.

 

Then I was given the book Desire of Ages and all of the childhood black and white memories of the stories of Christ suddenly were presented in full color- I began to fall in love with the "matchless charms of Christ". I began to understand Righteousness by Faith. I remember a few months into it I had the weirdest realization that I had been walking by bottles of alcohol or even seeing people drink and was entirely unaffected-- one day it just dawned on me "How weird! I haven't had a single thought about drinking in forever even though I was physically right next to alcohol!"-- it was almost like the stuff was just invisible to me physically and mentally.

 

A few years ago hard times hit me. I stopped studying, stopped praying, and eventually decided 100% to abandon the post that God had set me in and return to my old ways. Now I'm an alcoholic and on drugs again. Several arrests later and I'm starting to think maybe I made the wrong choice. Heh, just kidding. I knew it was the wrong choice when I made it, but the alternative of crying and sighing for the abominations done in the midst of the people of God is too much for me to handle. I really can't imagine going back to being a servant of God.

[JoeMo]

Joshua,

Thanks for posting this. I truly appreciate your candid honesty.  I have struggled with alcohol and drugs off and on myself since I decided to become a believer 45 years ago.  One thing I have learned is that God has never abandoned me during those times.  He has always been there calling me --- calling me.  I have come to believe He wants to have a relationship with me - in good times and bad times.  In response, I WANT Him here with me - in good times and bad.  He knows me and all that I do or don't do anyways.  Why not welcome His presence all the time?

 

He wants to have the same relationship with you - in good times and bad.  He just wants YOU - that's all.  He'll deal with your issues and weaknesses as He sees fit after you return to the family.

 

The prodigal son didn't come back to the family because he had repented of his ways.  He came back because he was hungry!  The father didn't care - he had his son back.  So it is with your heavenly Father.  He doesn't care what drives you back to the family; He just wants you back in the family!

[LifeHiscost]

The prodigal son didn't come back to the family because he had repented of his ways.  He came back because he was hungry!  The father didn't care - he had his son back.  So it is with your heavenly Father.  He doesn't care what drives you back to the family; He just wants you back in the family!

As one Christian Adventist described to me, God will use any means He can that will entice you back into His care  However, once there He will not leave you in that condition. And I agree.

 

…21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;…Luke 15

 

…6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.....Luke 15

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Lauralea]

Read John's account (the only gospel writer at the cross).  He indicates that Jesus took the offered sponge of sour wine.  A carefully reading of all the gospel accounts seem to suggest that Jesus was offered the sour wine twice.  The first time he declined. The second time he took it.  There is some evidence that the practice was not so much to quench thirst, but that the sour wine ( exact translation not clear... could be vinegar, could be old cheap wine [grog] consumed by the soldiers.  It was diluted and/or mixed with spices to make it palatable) was apparently mixed with gall, a natural substance that was used as a pain killer.   

Ellen White says he refused it because it would cloud his mind. I agree that using a painkiller when in pain is not a sin.

[whbae]

I do not like the taste of odor of alcohol! I guess everyone has different odor or taste perception.

Some said he is addicted to cheese.  Look up what Mrs. White said about cheese.  It is not only Mrs. White, but also some secular dietician agrees with Mrs.  White's statement.

[LifeHiscost]

I really can't imagine going back to being a servant of God.

At one time I thought the effort was more than I could endure. Then I gradually began to realize that God didn't ask me to do some great thing, for Him or anyone else. He just ask me to come unto Him and He would do all that I needed to be assured for receiving the free gift of eternal life.

 

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.…Matt 11 Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.…John 15

 

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. ...Phil 4

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Ted]

Greetings all, 

 

I wanted to raise a query with those people in here that choose not to consume alcohol. 

 

Do you not drink alcohol because the SDA asks you not to as a member, or do you have other reasons or motivations not to drink alcohol? Did you formerly drink alcohol before becoming involved in the SDA? 

   Ted-sober:  |10552 days

   Ted-sober:  |28 years 10 mons 22 days

 

AA has been my touchstone. Not the church. The church says "Don't do it." AA provides a path to sobriety.

I've seen more honesty in AA than in church. There's no "church face" at AA.

Saying in AA: "I went to church to save my soul.  I came to AA to save my ***."

My last drink was February 3, 1986, the day I was commissioned a police officer.  Drinking and police work don't mix.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't drink because I am an alcoholic.  That is pretty simple.  I agree with the Adventist teaching on abstainance.  I think it goes very well with our health message.  The National Association of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism report that 40% of people that use alcohol will deal with abuse at sometime during their lives.  Approximately 35% of Americans do not drink at all and less than 50% drink on a regular basis.  So obviously there are several reasons beyond religious for not drinking.

 

Statistics actually show that alcoholics live longer even with the fact that alcohol-related illness kill off many them early in life.  Those that it doesn't kill live so much longer that they offset those that die young.  Personally, I think that is because alcohol provides the alcoholic an escape from the stress of life and stress is more deadly than alcohol is.  Of course, there are better ways to deal with stress than intoxication but most people do not employ them.  And while the alcoholic may have a stress-free escape, he or she normally creates a hell in the lives of those around him or her.

 

Given the numbers we have, it is around 20% to 30% of the population that do drink without any abuse issues.  The rest of the population either doesn't drink at all or deals with abuse issues sometime during their life to a varying degree.  I don't understand those folks at all.  These are people that drink but don't get drunk.  These are the people that come home from work and drink just one beer - or maybe just half - and no more.  I have friends like this.  They put just enough liquor in their mixed drink to taste it and will complain if too much is added.  When they do drink enough to get feeling a little tipsy, they percieve that feeling as a red light that it is time to stop drinking.  

 

It seems pretty clear that the Bible allowed the consumption of alcohol but let us not forget something about that era of history.  They didn't have cars.  What was the worst thing that would happen if someone got drunk?  Well, I guess they might go to sleep naked.

[LifeHiscost]

Make no mistake about this.  By Grace alone we are saved.  By faith alone do we except salvation.  The Bible alone contains all that we need to know in reguards to our salvation.  Christ alone, it is through Jesus Christ that we have a mediator between God and man.  Glory to God alone.  Let no one glory in himself. 

Be careful in this.  The Bible has a lot to say about how we should live, don't disreguard this important point.  After all, that is where we get all the other teachings.

And may I suggest it is God's grace that delivers from those habits that risk our destruction. He asks nothing from us that is for our best good to keep.

 

16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise....1 Cor 3

 

1Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.…Lev 10

 

It is my understanding Nadab and Abihu were inebriated when suffering their lack of propriety

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

Other false ideas are not relevant.

Did Jesus as our example produce/drink alcoholic beverage? You seem to believe He did. Jesus cannot be wrong, so why wouldn't the church change it's teaching?

Most that I know that believe alcohol consumption is biblically wrong, don't consider our Example a shaky foundation

Since all Jesus had from the scriptures to speak on when He was here the first time as a Man, was the old testament, and He gave this view;

 

39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify of Me...John 5

 

if alcohol is innocuous for recreational drinking, why would He put this counsel in His Word?

 

1Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.....Prov 20

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

[Lauralea]

I grew up in a non-denominational christian family. I developed a desire for drugs and alcohol at about the age of 13.

 

I've been addicted to drugs and alcohol most of my life. When I became interested in spiritual things I had far more conviction than ever that I needed to leave those things behind, the conviction was always there but it was very background and I usually put it entirely out of my mind by getting intoxicated.

 

I remember at first when I made the choice to stop, it was hard, for weeks even. All of the people I knew did drugs and drank, so I had to stop hanging out with them entirely. It was hard. I lost everyone in my life that I cared about and it was hard to even look at a bottle of alcohol without being tempted-- I'd have to avoid those aisles entirely at the grocery store so I wouldn't see them and be tempted.

 

Then I was given the book Desire of Ages and all of the childhood black and white memories of the stories of Christ suddenly were presented in full color- I began to fall in love with the "matchless charms of Christ". I began to understand Righteousness by Faith. I remember a few months into it I had the weirdest realization that I had been walking by bottles of alcohol or even seeing people drink and was entirely unaffected-- one day it just dawned on me "How weird! I haven't had a single thought about drinking in forever even though I was physically right next to alcohol!"-- it was almost like the stuff was just invisible to me physically and mentally.

 

A few years ago hard times hit me. I stopped studying, stopped praying, and eventually decided 100% to abandon the post that God had set me in and return to my old ways. Now I'm an alcoholic and on drugs again. Several arrests later and I'm starting to think maybe I made the wrong choice. Heh, just kidding. I knew it was the wrong choice when I made it, but the alternative of crying and sighing for the abominations done in the midst of the people of God is too much for me to handle. I really can't imagine going back to being a servant of God.

I just saw your post Joshua. Wow; I have had hard times too but just let dumb things crowd out time with God and let myself get distracted. You know you could always make a lateral move to a different place and make a fresh start where you could feel the basics of God caring about you again.  He is your friend and he doesn't turn his back on his friends. Remember when Jesus told the disciples they were more than servants they were friends. You probably couldn't imagine it the first time, and it happened. Not sure how the crying and sighing fits in although know it will happen ultimately. Right now it sounds more like you need a Friend. You already know where this road goes- it is nothing you will ever need.