For those who do not drink Alcohol.

[Kountzer]

My dad was alcoholic dependent.  He died from alcoholic complications.  I didn't grow up with him though. Him and my Mom divorced when I was five. Not that many alcoholics on my Mom's side of the family. They have problems, but alcoholism not one of them.  It was from this side of the family that I found the adventist church. 

 

I would say family influence and the church were nurturing influences that keep my from drinking. That plus I have this consciousness developed from reading and listening to people like Malcolm X.  It's hard to explain. I know I am already behind in a lot of ways so I want to be sober and vigilant.  

I am more selective in what I read. I do value Ellen White and what she had to say as a prophetess.  

 

Alcohol is one of the many traps that are out there though.

[LifeHiscost]

But we cannot in good conscience throw away our God-given free will.

Christ died to preserve that free will.

 

 

And of course, any or all have the right to choose to ignore that right for the safety of a higher wisdom than our own.

 

20And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.   2 Chron 20

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[TruthSeeker123]

Oh...I get it...

We're better than all the others because we have "The Truth."

 

There is an almost-unspoken judgment.  It's the reason I don't attend church.

 

Besides finding the taste undesirable and being unwilling to subject my body and mind to the side effects of drinking alcohol, I choose to abstain because my conscience will not allow me to. What I said was not a judgment on anyone, Ted. I was merely sharing my thought process. Integrity is very important to me.

I have an uncle (and many cousins) who drinks and is an elder in the SDA church. I was surprised when he drank a Savannah Dry at a family gathering at his home on Sunday afternoon. And though shaken by it, I came to the realisation that ultimately it's between him and God. The Lord will show whose opinion/belief is right.

But for me, I choose to conform on this point. What have I got to lose? And my conscience won't allow me to. That's where I stand. (If I am wrong the Lord will show me.)

[LifeHiscost]

 

But we cannot in good conscience throw away our God-given free will.

Christ died to preserve that free will.

Maybe not throw away, but how about give it away for the sake of the wisdom that doesn't come from declaring our independence.

 

8All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" Exodus 19

 

And all on earth are suffering the affects of unrestricted freedom of choice to this day. Until we have a nature that isn't swayed so easily by the carnal, we have the choice of accepting the will of God or suffering the enslavement of the accuser of the brethren.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Windsor]

Sojourner, I would also add to what you said in response to Windsor that at the last supper, there was wine. There seems to be a fairly common Adventist misconception that to consume alcohol is a sin and that Sinless Jesus would therefore not have consumed any. Presumable knowingly drinking one drop of alcohol would have made him a sinner. The time of year in which the Passover occurs suggest it quite unlikely that there would have been ripe grapes to have had freshly squeezed grape juice. Even if it had been recently squeezed even earlier that day, with no refrigeration, the juice would have already begun to ferment, and thus have at least a small amount of alcohol. But the reality was that the Passover supper included real wine. Jesus shared the cup and said, "I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until..." That most clearly indicates he was drinking it then and there.

And, Windsor, it appears for a reading of all the gospel accounts that Jesus was offered the sour wine twice while on the cross. The first time he refused. But read the eyewitness account of the apostle John, the only gospel writer to have stayed at the cross. The second time John says that Jesus said he was thirsty, they soaked a sponge in the cheap sour wine gave it to him and he took it.

It is a bit hard to avoid the clear reading that he had alcohol twice within the 24 hours prior to his death on the cross. And as I pointed out earlier, he seemed to see no need to deny the accusation against him in comparison to John the Baptist, that He was a glutton and drunkard because He ate and drank with sinners. Again, a clear reading of that account and Jesus' own words, he said John did not drink and that because He (Jesus) did drink, His critics accused him of being a drunk. He acknowledges the drinking and eating, but simply highlights the foolish conclusion that that implied he was a drunkard and a glutton in comparison to John's asceticism.

I am not at all surprised by your post. Your consistent anti Adventist posts (while claiming to be faithful to the church) are one of the

reasons I quit visiting here.

"Because of his association with sinners, Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a winebibber; but the very ones who made this charge were themselves the guilty ones. Satan’s method of misrepresenting the character of God is to attribute to him his own characteristics, and thus do wicked men falsify the messenger of the Lord. Those who accused Jesus, and who had said that John had a devil, knew that they were bearing false witness; but they were filled with jealousy, because, though they had so long been the acknowledged leaders of the people, they were set aside, and the people thronged to hear the words of another."

[JoeMo]

I am not at all surprised by your post. Your consistent anti Adventist posts (while claiming to be faithful to the church) are one of the

reasons I quit visiting here.

When can we get a "don't like" or "thumbs down" button?  Why is it that when people cannot respond effectively to an issue that they devolve into personal insults and character assassination?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I am not at all surprised by your post. Your consistent anti Adventist posts (while claiming to be faithful to the church) are one of the

reasons I quit visiting here.

 

[LifeHiscost]

Oh...I get it...

We're better than all the others because we have "The Truth."

Not better than, just better off in freedom than.

 

32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.".....John 8

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Lauralea]

Some research on ancient practices regarding preservation of juice by Dr. Samuel Bacciocchi found below. It shows the technology was available to preserve juice by contemporaries of Christ and the early Christians. Dr. Bacciocchi also provides evidence the Jews were familiar with the processes and did employ them

 

biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html  Please copy and paste this if you would like to read the chapter by Dr. Bacciocchi. 

The Preservation of Grape Juice by Boiling

Moisture and Heat. The fermentation of grape juice can be prevented by reducing sufficiently its moisture content or by heating the juice at high temperature. The reason for this is that the growth of the yeast germs, which are the fermenting agents, slows or stops entirely when the moisture content of the grape juice is heated at 150º to 180º F. At such a temperature most of the ferments are destroyed. Both of these results are achieved by boiling the grape juice.

By boiling, the water of the grape juice evaporates, yeasts and molds are destroyed, and the sugar content increases, thus inhibiting yeast growth. This method of preserving grape juice unfermented by carefully boiling it down to a syrup was commonly and successfully used in the ancient world. When desired, the syrup would be drunk diluted with water. Several sources confirm this practice.

Ancient Testimonies. The most celebrated Roman poet, Virgil (70-19 B.C.), in his Georgics, pictures a housewife thus "She boils down by the fire the moisture of sweet must, and skims off with leaves the wavy froth of the simmering caldron."3

 

Preservation by boiling was well known to the Romans by the second century A.D. Roman women of that era did not drink fermented wine.

"Polybius, an historian of the second century B.C., tells us that "among the Romans women are forbidden to drink [fermented] wine; and they drink what is called passum, which is made from raisins, and tastes very much like the sweet wine [gleukos] of Aegosthena or Crete. This is what they do to quench their thirst. But it is almost impossible for them to drink wine without being found out." 67

[Kountzer]

i like being aware. Aware of danger, aware of what's going on in the world. I like being aware of spiritual stuff.  Often times I am groggy because of insomnia. I've been dealing with insomia since i was 12.  I inherited the problem. I could tell some horror stories of what my Mom had to deal with.  My biological dad was an alcoholic.  

 

So I stay away from alcohol, from 'smoke' as well.  I hate being pimped by convenience stores.  I hate the smell of tobacco.  Don't have to worry about me stealing cigarillos.  They're a waste of time, health and money.  

 

Also, I have this defiant, independent streak going.  I like keeping the sabbath, when the world goes the other way.  I also like not drinking when 'they' say I should.   So, I don't drink.

[Gerr]

Greetings all, 

 

I wanted to raise a query with those people in here that choose not to consume alcohol. 

 

Do you not drink alcohol because the SDA asks you not to as a member, or do you have other reasons or motivations not to drink alcohol? Did you formerly drink alcohol before becoming involved in the SDA? 

I was "vaccinated" against alcohol early on.  During my childhood, I used to see two aunts of mine (they were spinster sisters) drink some alcohol after a hard days work. It could be rum, gin, or some other alcohol.  Often they would mix it Coca Cola.  One day, I tried the vodka that they had just drank from.  That mouthful burned from the time it hit my mouth until it hit my stomach.  I never tried alcohol again except for basi, which is a Filipino wine from the fermentation of sugar cane juice.  It tasted very good when I tried it just after 5-7 days of fermentation, but I didn't like the taste after it was fully fermented.  Wines available today still gives me the same burning/bitter taste as that first taste of vodka.  My aversion to alcohol is further reinforced  by the knowledge of what it does to the body especially how it lowers one's inhibitions, plus all the negative things the Bible has to say about it.  

 

I tried tobacco twice.  Both times it made me very ill.  I never touched it again either.

[Gerr]

Sojourner, I would also add to what you said in response to Windsor that at the last supper, there was wine. There seems to be a fairly common Adventist misconception that to consume alcohol is a sin and that Sinless Jesus would therefore not have consumed any. Presumable knowingly drinking one drop of alcohol would have made him a sinner. The time of year in which the Passover occurs suggest it quite unlikely that there would have been ripe grapes to have had freshly squeezed grape juice. Even if it had been recently squeezed even earlier that day, with no refrigeration, the juice would have already begun to ferment, and thus have at least a small amount of alcohol. But the reality was that the Passover supper included real wine. Jesus shared the cup and said, "I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until..." That most clearly indicates he was drinking it then and there.

And, Windsor, it appears for a reading of all the gospel accounts that Jesus was offered the sour wine twice while on the cross. The first time he refused. But read the eyewitness account of the apostle John, the only gospel writer to have stayed at the cross. The second time John says that Jesus said he was thirsty, they soaked a sponge in the cheap sour wine gave it to him and he took it.

It is a bit hard to avoid the clear reading that he had alcohol twice within the 24 hours prior to his death on the cross. And as I pointed out earlier, he seemed to see no need to deny the accusation against him in comparison to John the Baptist, that He was a glutton and drunkard because He ate and drank with sinners. Again, a clear reading of that account and Jesus' own words, he said John did not drink and that because He (Jesus) did drink, His critics accused him of being a drunk. He acknowledges the drinking and eating, but simply highlights the foolish conclusion that that implied he was a drunkard and a glutton in comparison to John's asceticism.

Do you think that when Jesus picks up the cup again that will be fermented?

[phkrause]

Do you think that when Jesus picks up the cup again that will be fermented?

Just saw a sermon by a evangelist, It Is Written I believe, that mentioned that the Grape Juice represented the pure blood of Jesus. So if it really did have alcohol in it, it could not represent the pure blood of Jesus, since alcohol is not pure.

[bonnie]

Just saw a sermon by a evangelist, It Is Written I believe, that mentioned that the Grape Juice represented the pure blood of Jesus. So if it really did have alcohol in it, it could not represent the pure blood of Jesus, since alcohol is not pure.

From what has been said here there is absolutely no reason not to have alcoholic wine at communion service. I can't see any reason why SDA's cannot drink alcohol in moderation, just not to excess. Weddings receptions should be able to serve wine as well as any festive get together of SDA's.

It is probably time to admit we have had it all wrong and give the go-ahead from the denomination to be able to drink moderately

[LifeHiscost]

It is probably time to admit we have had it all wrong and give the go-ahead from the denomination to be able to drink moderately

That suggested conclusion is part of the omega apostasy included in the prophetic instruction about the end time events.

 

http://www.formypeople.org/En/index.shtml

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Lauralea]

Alcohol is an addictive drink. About 1/4 of people will either become alcoholics binge drink or have other serious alcohol related problems. So suppose there was pill you could take to relax and it was legal but 1/4 of your family would become addicted. Would you take it or not, and why? Also it causes homicides, suicides and even 2 drinks make one more likely to cause a car crash. Women who drink 3 drinks a week raise their risk of breast cancer by about 20% and it doubles with more alcohol.

 

If we take a drug with a high risk of dependency and abuse, we cannot assume we won't become addicted. And if we don't someone else may. In fact, given enough people, someone else will. If we have 100 people at a social gathering who imbibe out of a guest list of 200 the odds are some will make poor subsequent choices. Drunk driving arrest? Accident? Former problem drinker falling off the wagon? all are possibilities.

[Kountzer]

From what has been said here there is absolutely no reason not to have alcoholic wine at communion service. I can't see any reason why SDA's cannot drink alcohol in moderation, just not to excess. Weddings receptions should be able to serve wine as well as any festive get together of SDA's.

It is probably time to admit we have had it all wrong and give the go-ahead from the denomination to be able to drink moderately

If you want to drink alcohol do so.  The sda police are not going to track you down.  it's all about choices.

[Tom Wetmore]

And the health and societal considerations is why we should not abandon our position on this as a denomination. But to be effective today in promoting that positive healthy lifestyle we need to be careful to not overstate the basis on which we take that position making illogical leaps that it is totally supported by the Bible. In that regard, it is not unlike our efforts to promote vegetarian diet. One is hard pressed to find much support from Scripture for that either. Taking strained Biblical interpretations ultimately has an adverse impact on or credibility as a church and leads some to the confusing and wrong perspective that these are moral/salvific matters.

[bonnie]

With Jesus as our perfect example we should have wine at communion service. Wine could safely be served at a wedding reception.After all that was the first miracle Jesus performed

[Lauralea]

Since he created and immediately served it and the Greek word for wine Oinos does not distinguish between fermented wine and grape juice, there is no reason to assume it was fermented.

[LifeHiscost]

 But to be effective today in promoting that positive healthy lifestyle we need to be careful to not overstate the basis on which we take that position making illogical leaps that it is totally supported by the Bible. In that regard, it is not unlike our efforts to promote vegetarian diet. One is hard pressed to find much support from Scripture for that either.

16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin....James 4

 

16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise....1 Cor 3

 

http://en.paperblog.com/myth-debunked-do-vegetarians-live-longer-568952/

 

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God....1 Cor 10

 

Let the Spirit lead.

 

After reading what is commonly called the Lord's prayer, I concluded since death wasn't what heaven was going to include, to live accordingly, the killing of animals to sustain my life wasn't the best choice.

 

2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,...... Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.....Luke 11

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[bonnie]

Since he created and immediately served it and the Greek word for wine Oinos does not distinguish between fermented wine and grape juice, there is no reason to assume it was fermented.

I agree,but it seems to be the opinion that Jesus did in fact produce alcoholic wine .Most here seem to believe that there was alcoholic wine served at the last supper.

With Jeus as our example there shouldn't be any reason not to do likewise. Jesus was certainly aware of this..... the health and societal considerations, when he gave His blessing  to it's use at the wedding and the last supper,along with drinking it Himself. From that if you believe that we have nothing to fear

[Lauralea]

I am not at all sure most posting here would think that. I also know that those who drink do carry health risks of cancer car accidents and other things. It is not a question of fear but of wanting to make the best health choices.

[Tom Wetmore]

16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin....James 4

16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise....1 Cor 3

http://en.paperblog.com/myth-debunked-do-vegetarians-live-longer-568952/

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God....1 Cor 10

Let the Spirit lead.

After reading what is commonly called the Lord's prayer, I concluded since death wasn't what heaven was going to include, to live accordingly, the killing of animals to sustain my life wasn't the best choice.

2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,...... Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.....Luke 11

God is Love! Jesus saves!

No need to worry about context, I guess, when all you are doing is trying to prove a point...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Since fermented wine is the type that takes time to create, wouldn't it be more reasonable to think that was the product of Jesus' miracle? The cultivation of vineyards in the Galilean area of Cana was probably doing very well, as the soil in the area is rich in basalt and limestone, which make for excellent wines.

 

If it was merely fresh grape juice that was made from water, what would be the miracle?  Servants could have simply pressed more (if the time of year was such that the vineyards were ripening)...