For those who do not drink Alcohol.

[phkrause]

Do you remember when major advertising  said, "More doctors smoke Camels". If you're old enough, this may be of interest to you.

 

 

Do you think they had an agenda, like making money? The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

How do we really know that more doctors didn't smoke Camels than others?

[Woody]

LHC - if you lived near Ashland ... (Medford Area) you might have tasted the Lithia water.

It's the worst tasting water I ever did taste .

I was going to paste a link but don't have pasteing privileges since I am on IE.

However - you can Google it.

[Sojourner]

There is a strong misconception here that Christ drank alcohol. This is not the teaching of the Adventist church or the Bible. Did the same God who inspired the words of Solomon ("wine is a mocker"), create more posion for a wedding party? Did the same God who commanded Hannah and Samson to never so much as taste strong drink imbibe it Himself? Did the same God who refused alcohol while dying on a cross accept it at a party? The fate of every human being depended on Christ's perfect obedience to the law. Yet some here teach that He decided to risk falling into sin by loosening His inhibitions through alcohol. That sounds like slander which when speaking of God is actually blasphemy.

 

I would love for you to show me an official document from the SDA that states that they teach that Jesus Christ did not drink alcohol, I researched the SDA at length for several years before becoming a member and never once saw anything along these lines. 

Three points, 

 

The fermentation process is how grape juice is preserved to last for 12 months. There are modern methods to do it now, but this was not so in the first century. 

Jesus said "You can not put new wine in an old wineskin". This is because of the Fermentation process which expands the skin. A sheep's gut will stretch once, but not twice. 

Finally Jesus first miracle was to create wine. A comment is made about the quality of the wine and the best stuff being brought out second rather than first, this is because fermented wine improves in taste as it ages. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

Our local water system was rated the best in the state through statewide testing.

And Oregon has some mighty good water.

 

I thought Mt Hood's little district of Rhododendron was rated the best, as of May 2014.  

http://www.pamplinmedia.com/sp/68-news/222404-83292-rhododendron-water-wins-best-tasting-award

[Tom Wetmore]

Sojourner, I would also add to what you said in response to Windsor that at the last supper, there was wine. There seems to be a fairly common Adventist misconception that to consume alcohol is a sin and that Sinless Jesus would therefore not have consumed any. Presumable knowingly drinking one drop of alcohol would have made him a sinner. The time of year in which the Passover occurs suggest it quite unlikely that there would have been ripe grapes to have had freshly squeezed grape juice. Even if it had been recently squeezed even earlier that day, with no refrigeration, the juice would have already begun to ferment, and thus have at least a small amount of alcohol. But the reality was that the Passover supper included real wine. Jesus shared the cup and said, "I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until..." That most clearly indicates he was drinking it then and there.

And, Windsor, it appears for a reading of all the gospel accounts that Jesus was offered the sour wine twice while on the cross. The first time he refused. But read the eyewitness account of the apostle John, the only gospel writer to have stayed at the cross. The second time John says that Jesus said he was thirsty, they soaked a sponge in the cheap sour wine gave it to him and he took it.

It is a bit hard to avoid the clear reading that he had alcohol twice within the 24 hours prior to his death on the cross. And as I pointed out earlier, he seemed to see no need to deny the accusation against him in comparison to John the Baptist, that He was a glutton and drunkard because He ate and drank with sinners. Again, a clear reading of that account and Jesus' own words, he said John did not drink and that because He (Jesus) did drink, His critics accused him of being a drunk. He acknowledges the drinking and eating, but simply highlights the foolish conclusion that that implied he was a drunkard and a glutton in comparison to John's asceticism.

[LifeHiscost]

How do we really know that more doctors didn't smoke Camels than others?

I give up. How?

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Which just goes to show people often see in the Scripture that which they choose to see, especially if it verifies what has already been concluded. I'm satisfied when meeting the Redeemer of my soul, steadiness of mind will have a telling affect on what He says to me. Not to mention if I'm wrong about alcohol, it will present no impediment to entrance to the city of lights.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

LHC - if you lived near Ashland ... (Medford Area) you might have tasted the Lithia water.

It's the worst tasting water I ever did taste .

I was going to paste a link but don't have pasteing privileges since I am on IE.

However - you can Google it.

I have reason to believe you're correct. We stayed there but a short time and part of the reason is the water was so terrible. I've never tasted any public or private water supply,so vile, even in a public swimming pool, and I understand 1 out of every 4 people who swim in public pools, pee in it. Don't ask me where I got that information. One pastor told me, upon revealing that information, he'd never be able to enjoy a public swim again. LoL

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LynnDel]

Pam, this is where I got my info. It may be two different organizations doing the testing:

 

http://pamplinmedia.com/msp/129-news/216757-75686-county-dominating-water-quality-event

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pam, this is where I got my info. It may be two different organizations doing the testing:

 

http://pamplinmedia.com/msp/129-news/216757-75686-county-dominating-water-quality-event

 

Looks like Rhododendron was "best tasting" for surface water, and CCR is "best overall" (including ground water)  

 

(I prefer ground water!!!)  

[Gail]

There were a couple ways to preserve grape juice that I read about, one is that the Romans incorporated sulfur as a preservative. The grapes were also dried into raisins and rehydrated with water to make "wine" that was acceptable to be used in temple services. They had honey, too, which doesn't spoil. If ancient peoples added that to juice I imagine that could have a preserving action.

They also dehydrated the juice down to a syrup and saved that to be used later. Fermenting was only one way to preserving their grape juice.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There were a couple ways to preserve grape juice that I read about, one is that the Romans incorporated sulfur as a preservative. The grapes were also dried into raisins and rehydrated with water to make "wine" that was acceptable to be used in temple services. They had honey, too, which doesn't spoil. If ancient peoples added that to juice I imagine that could have a preserving action.

They also dehydrated the juice down to a syrup and saved that to be used later. Fermenting was only one way to preserving their grape juice.

 

kinda sounds like prune juice...

[Woody]

My brother used to live in Rhododendron . Can't say I found his water very tasty.

[Lauralea]

As a nutritionist, I am aware concentrated juice with high sugar content would keep for a long time because of the high osmolality (ratio of solutes to water). Also boiling kills germs, and if sealed with wax, it could last and at least have substantially lower alcohol content than wine today. The Jews were admonished to avoid sparkling wine, which was fermented, and to avoid drunkenness. Becoming obviously intoxicated was not accepted in Jewish culture, nor by the Christians. They could not check it for zero alcohol content, but were told to avoid drunkenness and obviously fermented beverages, instead of deliberately fermenting beverages. 

[anto]

I'm grateful to my SDA pastor who told me I had to pledge to give up alcohol completely if I wanted to be baptised. I tried to talk him around, saying I was a very light drinker and had only one or two glasses a month at a party, but he said take it or leave it. Good on you Brett, I found it actually made a noticeable difference to my mental performance when I stopped drinking altogether and I began to enjoy an increased clarity in my study that surpassed anything I'd had before.

I'm a retired nutrition therapist and I don't go along with the medical claims that a little alcohol causes no harm in the body. Empirical studies are not the best evidence when the biochemistry is clearly and unequivocally known - acetaldehyde, a major breakdown product of alcohol in the body, causes oxidation and degradation of body tissues in 100% of cases, regardless what any population study may have seemed to indicate.

Alcohol metabolites also act as exo-neurotransmitters in the brain and interfere with normal brain function to impair judgement. It also has a rebound depressing effect due to disruption of your neurotransmitter equilibrium. This effect can last for several days and, over time, repeated occurrences can tend to make such disruptions permanent.

Good health depends in large part on supporting the liver detox function. In modern life there are enough challenges to the detox system without deliberately putting another toxin into your bloodstream. Overloaded detoxification is a factor in obesity and fatty liver, and less directly but no less problematically on conditions like atherosclerosis, diabetes, cancer, kidney failure, as well as many others where underperforming immune function is involved.

And finally, when you are unable to live without something like alcohol you know you have formed another attachment to the things of the world. Caffeine is another drug that many people would struggle to eliminate from their lives. Not to mention sugar. As much as we all would like to be relying totally on Jesus for our needs and source of lasting peace and joy, I always suspected that attachments to such things would have to detract from my relationship with him.

I could be wrong but I believe life goes better on quite a few fronts without alcohol. Or caffeine, or sugar. I know I sound like a wowser but to me it just seems like good logic. And when you try living without alcohol, after a while you don't miss it (I confess I'm not at that stage with coffee yet). I really like that I can still hold up my end of an intelligent conversation late into the night at a party. My friends have gotten used to my not drinking now and it doesn't bother anyone. And I definitely like waking up the next morning feeling fresh and wonderful, quite different from what it would be like back when I used to drink.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Tom Wetmore
Oversized font... Comes across as shouting in written media

[Miss Jessie]

I just don't drink it. It's not even tempting most of the time. I've never really drank it, although I've tasted it. I have had it in cooking though and cough syrup.

 

I suppose that it does have something to do with how I was raised hearing that the Bible tells us to be sober and avoid strong drink, but I've also grown up and seen things...some of the things that alcohol does to a family. Maybe not even drinking it, but just it being there.

 

But why should it be tempting? I mean, it's bitter and nasty and smells gross. I like to drink sparkling grape juice and sweet apple cider [i think I did have fermented apple cider once, and we didn't know it was fermented until we drank it, but I didn't know the difference, except that it was really bitter, until one of my parents commented on it], and I'll drink them in one of those fancy glasses, and lemonade too. Who needs alcohol?

[LynnDel]

In Ethiopia, when I was a young 'un there, raisins were reconstituted into grape juice for the Lord's Supper.

[Tom Wetmore]

They also did that in Indonesia when we lived there. Tasted awful!

[LynnDel]

Like canned prune juice...

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, that's about right!

[Kountzer]

Occasionally I buy one beer.  I drink less than half of it then pour the rest down the toilet. I do this once every 18 months or so.  Alcohol doesn't make sense to me.  It is like society can't live with it, and they can't live without it.   Society says you must go out and have a drink, or two.  It is like you're not supposed to have fun without drinking alcohol.  They build the bars in convenient locations where you can easily drive to. Then when you leave the police catch you, or you have a terrible accident and kill someone Then they label you an alcoholic misfit.  Weird.  

[Ted]

I drank alcoholically from my first drink, at 16, in 1958. I love alcohol!  I simply don't drink now.

Alcohol caused the breakup of two marriages, plus every job I had.

After I stopped drinking, my job lasted 11 years.  My third and last marriage, almost 25 years.  It was terminated by death.

My sobriety date is February 3, 1986, the day I was commissioned a police officer.  Hangovers and police work don't mix. One night I "interviewed" a woman lying on the street, drunk.  Thought: "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

I lived in Oregon --- with its good water --- and brewed home-brew beer from this marvelous water. ;-)

To get a good view (some might say grip) on the alcoholic personality, subscribe to the Facebook "‎Alcoholics Anonymous quote each day to your inbox" group (Oh, drat! Forget it. It's a closed group. You have to be alcoholic to join, recovering or not.)

AA has good one-liners:

"Easy does it."

"One day at a time."

"Let go, let God."

"Just for this {day|hour|minute|second}." Choose one.

"Sobriety delivers what alcohol promises."

I tend to trust other alcoholics more than church members because of honesty.  On all fronts. They've been there.

[LifeHiscost]

I tend to trust other alcoholics more than church members because of honesty.  On all fronts. They've been there.

Makes just as much reason as "honor among thieves".

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[TruthSeeker123]

I remember the first time I tasted beer. I was in the first grade. After I would go to my sister's daycare mother's house (where we stayed until our parents got us in the evening). Now my daycare mom's husband used to smoke and drink. He didn't work much. Their bin in the kitchen was always full of beer bottles.

So, one day I became curious. I wanted to know how it tasted because he really liked it. I mean he really liked it based on the amount of beer bottles in the bin every day. Therefore, beer must be good. So, I scratched in the bin when no one was around, found a beer bottle with a little beer in and took a sip. It was the worst tasting beverage that ever crossed my lips. I could rinse my mouth out enough and vowed to never drink beer again.

Later I learned from Patrick Holford that our first reaction to food is usually an indication to their goodness. (Obviously there are exceptions to this rule of thumb, like the Hunter's alcoholic apple cider my late uncle used to share with me and his grandson round about that time in my life.)

And the other reason I don't drink alcohol is a matter of integrity. How can I claim to be a member of a church that is clearly against the consumption of alcohol and yet drink a bit of it in private? Also how would I be able to reconcile my belief that EG White is a true prophet with my adherence to a practice she condemns in her "official" writings?

[Ted]

Oh...I get it...

We're better than all the others because we have "The Truth."

 

There is an almost-unspoken judgment.  It's the reason I don't attend church.

 

When I was steeped in Adventism, a professor at La Sierra (he was new at the time) opined, "We must remember that we have the truth, not with a capital 'T', but with a small 't'."

Only God has absolute truth. All other is relative.  Yes, even EGW.  So many members use her writings as a substitute for thought; having a knee-jerk quote to address a situation.

 

Another professor set up this scenario:

A: "What does the Bible say?"

B:   "What do you think it says?"

A: "I don't know."

B:  "OK. Let's see what EGW says [so we know what to believe]."

 

Yes, EGW is inspired.  Yes, her writings are inspired.  Yes, they are to be read carefully.  I would err on the side of conservatism in accepting them, believing them, and living in accordance with them.

 

But we cannot in good conscience throw away our God-given free will.

Christ died to preserve that free will.