does the Bible forbid "Christmas Trees"?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

During the Christmas holiday season, invariably some well-meaning Christian will proffer the idea that Christmas trees are pagan, and, therefore, should not be a part of the Christian holiday.  Most of the argument is drawn from Jeremiah 10 KJV:

 

 

Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

 

 

One of the best dissections of the Jeremiah 10 argument I've seen was written by Dr. Richard Bucher, as follows:

 

"[some argue that] Jeremiah 10 proves that the Christmas tree is a pagan custom and is forbidden by God. Therefore, they argue, all those who decorate a Christmas tree in their home are sinning in God's sight. This is quite the serious charge. Let us briefly examine Jeremiah 10 and the argument based upon it to see if there is any merit to this argument.

"The verses that the concerned readers repeatedly cite are 10:2-4: "Do not learn the ways of the nations . . . For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter." "Aha!" these readers say. "Jeremiah is talking about the Christmas tree!" But closer examination reveals that he certainly is not! 
 

"First, there is the immediate context of this passage. The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the "decorated tree" that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world. 10:8-10 also confirms this, where the wooden idols are contrasted with the LORD, who is the true and living God. Keil and Delitsch, the well-respected Old Testament commentary, confirms this interpretation that the trees in question were idols that were then worshiped (C. F. Keil and F. Delitsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, "Jeremiah, Lamentations," vol 8 (Grand Rapids: William B. Eeerdmans Publishing Company, 1980), 196-199).

 

"Second, when we search the rest of the Old Testament, we find many other examples of trees being planted, cut down, or carved into idols. One of the most common examples of a tree idol was the Asherah, mentioned often in the Old Testament. Asherah was a pagan goddess that was worshiped throughout the Mediterranean world. She was considered to be the goddess of the sea, the consort of El, and the mother of Baal. She was always represented as a tree or pole, either planted or erected, then decorated. There are many warnings in the Old Testament about the Asherah tree. For example, in Exodus 34:12-14, we read, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." From a more thorough study we learn that the Asherah idol was sometimes planted (Deut. 16:21; Micah 5:14), sometimes erected at high places (1 Kings 14:23, 2 Kings 17:10), with altars and incense stands next to them where they would be worshiped (In Judges 6:25, Gideon is commanded by God to "Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it." See also Isaiah 17:8 and Jeremiah 17:2). The Asherah, along with other man-made idols, were often decorated with various cloth hangings (2 Kings 23:7), as well as gold and silver. 
 

"Isaiah 44:14-19 gives a detailed picture of how a tree was cut down and fashioned into an idol - and the absurdity of it all.

"He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. 15 It is man's fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. 16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." 17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. 19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"

 

"From the foregoing, it is abundantly clear that the "decorated tree" to which Jeremiah 10 refers is an idol, very likely the Asherah. Therefore, it is very superficial Bible interpretation and pure silliness to understand this passage as directly referring to the use of a fir tree for Christmas! If, and I repeat, if those who set up a Christmas tree fall down and worship it as a god or goddess, complete with altars and incense stands, then Jeremiah 10 applies here. Or if someone loves their Christmas tree more than God, then such a thing might also be considered spiritual idolatry. But apart from these exceptions, I think it is abundantly clear that Christians who erect Christmas trees are NOT worshiping them as gods or goddesses, nor are they loving them more than their Savior Jesus Christ. They are simply using the Christmas tree as a fun custom, one that can remind them of Jesus who is the branch of David (Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15), the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). One that can remind them of the tree that led Adam and Eve to sin, but more importantly, the tree on which Christ Jesus died to make atonement for the sins of the whole world (Acts 5:30; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24). 
 

"Christians should know that they can use a Christmas tree with a good conscience. It is unfortunate and wrong when well-meaning Christians call something sin that is not sin, and enslave the consciences of their fellow believers with imaginary sin! Shame on such Christians! Those who continue to believe that the Christmas tree is pagan and sinful, even after having their conscience correctly informed, should not use them. For it is not right to sin against conscience. This is regrettable, however, since there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a Christmas tree."

[Gregory Matthews]

Well said.

[Gregory Matthews]

As to celebrating on the day dedicated to the alleged birth of a pagan god:  Every day of the year is the alleged birth day of a very large number Hindu gods and goddesses.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

lol  every day seems to have a "Saint" attached to it, as well...

[aka]

Catholic Calender December, 2014 

 

 

Roman Catholic Saints Calender December 2014

 

1
Blessed Charles de Foucauld

2
Blessed Rafal Chylinski

3
St. Francis Xavier

4

5
St. Sabas
more...

6
St. Nicholas
7

St. Ambrose

8
Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception  (Please note: According to RCC v.Mary conceived on the 8th of December. Baby Jesus arrives on Dec. 25, eh?)

9
St. Juan Diego

10
Servant of God Bernard of Quintavalle

11
St. Damasus I

12
Our Lady of Guadalupe

13
St. Lucy
14

St. John of the Cross

15
Blessed Mary Frances Schervier

16
Blessed Honoratus Kozminski

17
Lazarus
18

19
Blessed Pope Urban V

20
St. Dominic of Silos

21
St. Peter Canisius

22
Blessed Jacopone da Todi

23
St. John Kanty

24
Christmas at Greccio

25
Solemnity of the Nativity of the Lord

26
St. Stephen

27
St. John the Apostle

28

Holy Innocents

29
St. Thomas Becket

30
St. Egwin

31
St. Sylvester I

 

[8thdaypriest]

I personally think it is dangerous to replace the thing appointed by Yahweh - Sabbath, Passover, Pentecost, Yom Kippur, Tabernacles - with something of pagan origin - Easter, Halloween, Christmas (Winter solstice).  I realize folks are celebrating the birth of Jesus, but is it not a subtle way to pull them away from the LORD's appointed times?

 

It is most probable that Jesus Christ was born at Sakkot (Tabernacles).  He may have been conceived around Dec. 25th, but we don't know that for sure. 

 

Rehoboam set up Temples for the 10 Tribes at Dan and Bethel.  He appointed a priesthood.  He told them they were worshiping Yahweh.  He also changed the Feast Days to 1 month after the ones held at Jerusalem.  The LORD promised to bring these festival days to an end. 

 

Sunday keepers say the same things - that they are worshiping the LORD, and why does the day matter. 

 

Respectfully

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Gregory Matthews]

The Bible does not speak against worship on Sunday any more than it speaks against worship on Wednesday/Thursday--Remember the Prayer Meetings.

 

What the Bible does is to speak of a time dedicated to God--the 7th day.  What it speaks against is the attempt of humans to replace the day determined by God with a day not determined by God.

 

In our worship we are not limited to what God has commanded.  IOW, we are not limited to worshiping God only on the day that he commanded--the 7th day.

 

At those times of worship, we can remember the major events of Christian faith--even when we may not know the exact day/month/year in which they occurred.

 

The SDA denomination has never said that it is wrong for people to worship on Sunday.

 

Even Ellen White spoke of having religious meetings on Sunday.

 

Teach Others to Give Bible Studies.--The same interest is still manifested in the meetings in Stanmore [Australia]. During the coming week, there is to be a baptism. Since the camp meeting I have visited Stanmore often, and have spoken eight times on Sabbath and Sunday afternoons. The interest is wide and extended. Brother Wilson and wife, Brother Starr and wife, and Brother Haskell and wife are all working in the mission, educating workers to give Bible Readings.--19MR 171 (1898).{DG 103.2}

 

Ah, so EGW personally had meetings on Sunday.  Interesting.

[CoAspen]

The Bible does not speak against worship on Sunday any more than it speaks against worship on Wednesday/Thursday--Remember the Prayer Meetings.

 

The SDA denomination has never said that it is wrong for people to worship on Sunday.

 

 

Those thoughts should encourage some thinking about our traditional views of Sabbath keeping and the meaning there of. We have had those discussions often before but not sure any conclusions, etc have ever been reached. My mind did take some wondering, out of the box, thoughts after first read of your post. Still thinking about it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries of the GC/NAD endorse more than 500 clergy for work as chaplains in various positions.   Many of those conduct services on Sunday on a regular basis.  But those chaplains do not keep Sunday as the Sabbath.  Rather they keep the 7th day, as commanded by the Bible, as the Sabbath.

 

Yes, I have preached on the Sabbath of the  Bilble and other distinctive doctrines in Sunday services  that I have conducted. 

 

I have been asked to come to Sunday keeping congregations and in their adult Sunday Schools and/or from the pulpit  talk about what Seventh-day Adventists believe and why.  These were worship services.  The  people had come to worship.  I came to worship with them.  If it is a sin to worship God on Sunday, I could not have gone to those congregations to talk to them about Seventh-day Adventists, what they believe, why and how they became a denomination.

 

Again the Biblical position is that God has set aside the 7thd day for worship.  One can worship on any day, but they cannot replace the one day that God has set aside with another day of their choosing.   When I went to other congregations on Sunday, I also worshiped in a SDA Congregation on the day before--Saturday.

[Ron Amnsn]

I believe Jeremiah 10 is speaking of idols, not christmas trees.  Yet so many christ-mass traditions come from dubious or tainted sources, I seriously doubt that we will have christmas trees in the New Jerusalem.

 

Nothing in the Christian tradition in any way that I see involves worshipping the Christmas tree as an idol.

 

There is a christmas carol that comes very close to worshiping the christmas tree:

 

O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree,
Your branches green delight us!
They are green when summer days are bright,
They are green when winter snow is white.
O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree,
Your branches green delight us!

O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree,
You give us so much pleasure!
How oft at Christmas tide the sight,
O green fir tree, gives us delight!
O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree,
You give us so much pleasure!

O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree
Forever true your colour.
Your boughs so green in summertime
Stay bravely green in wintertime.
O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree
Forever true your colour.

O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree
You fill my heart with music.
Reminding me on Christmas Day
To think of you and then be gay.
O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree
You fill my heart with music.

(Quoted from the Wikipedia article "O Tannenbaum".)

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

O Tannenbaum has nothing whatsoever to do with worshipping idols...  

[Ron Amnsn]

It depends on how you define an "idol" and how you define "worship".

 

The original German version of O Tannenbaum did not even refer to christmas trees-- it was about fir trees, contrasted with the unfaithfulness of a lover.  That could be innocent enough, if the author didn't believe in the "powers" of the trees or venerate "nature" as a god.

 

Idolatry has often involved trees, which were ascribed supernatural powers or venerated as the source of good things.  The English version of the song is certainly addressing the christmas tree and praising it as a source of pleasure and music.  Is that worship?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'

 

It depends on how you define an "idol" and how you define "worship".

 

The original German version of O Tannenbaum did not even refer to christmas trees-- it was about fir trees, contrasted with the unfaithfulness of a lover.  That could be innocent enough, if the author didn't believe in the "powers" of the trees or venerate "nature" as a god.

 

Idolatry has often involved trees, which were ascribed supernatural powers or venerated as the source of good things.  The English version of the song is certainly addressing the christmas tree and praising it as a source of pleasure and music.  Is that worship?

 

so you are one of those who assumes that anything that has its deep origins in anything that isn't sufficiently "Christian" should be tossed out as having evil emanations which can harm you?

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White was also a popular speaker on Sunday mornings in Sunday keeping churches where her topics were on God's love for them and the health message.

[Kevin H]

I'm sorry 8th day priest, but the "history" that Christmas came from pagans is out of date. It comes from a study a few hundred years ago where the scholars were using the best information that they had available to them. They said that December 25 was an important day for pagans and that Christians began celebrating December 25 as the birth of Christ in the fourth century. That Constantine made Christianity a legal religion and to place Jesus' birth on a day that was important to pagans made it easier for Pagans to become Christians.

 

Although the events of the fourth century did indeed bring many things from Paganism into the celebration of Christmas, historians today have more information than our scholars from a couple of hundred years ago had.

 

We now know that it came from inter-testamental Judaism, an attempt of one-ups-manship in the Church/Synagogue split of 135 AD. That the roots of December 25 was not centered on December 25 but that December 25 was the logical conclusion of what happened, and that December 25 was seen as the birth of Jesus in the third century, 100 years earlier than we thought. It was believed by Christians living in the 3rd century AD by Christians who wanted nothing to do with Paganism and were hiding in catacombs.

 

During inter-testamental Judaism Rabbis said that we should expect good things from Passover. Some Rabbis believed that Isaac was born on Passover. Others believed that Isaac was CONSEVED at Passover and born 9 months later. They also believed that it was Passover that Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Mariah to sacrifice him and was stopped by God and they sacrificed a ram caught in the thicket instead. Also, they believed that people who were blessed got to die either on the anniversary of their birthday or conception day.

 

When the church and synagogue split in 135 AD, it was like a divorce with both sides having pain and lashing out at the other to hurt the other. Some truths (such as the trinity) were split in half with the Jews holding one half and the Christians holding the other half of ideas that were oned prior to the split.

 

One of the things that the church did was to say that Jesus was greater than Isaac because Isaac was a type of Jesus. The second century church said that like Sarah with Isaac, Mary became pregnant with Jesus on Passover. (They sided with the Rabbis that saw Isaac's conception as Passover rather than his birth). And that being blessed by God, Jesus got to die on Passover the anniversary of his conception and while Isaac went to be sacrificed on Passover, the anniversary of his conception, so Jesus was the true sacrifice who was sacrificed on Passover, the anniversary of his entering Mary to be born as a baby.

 

For the next several years the second century AD church celebrated the feast of the Annunciation on Passover. It was Passover that was celebrated with the idea that Jesus' actual birth was 9 months later. Thus in the second century AD you find the roots of the birth of Jesus being in the December time period, because they believed that Isaac was born at that time and that Isaac was a type of Christ.

 

After a while that century the church stopped using the Jewish calendar and started to use the Roman calendar. That year, in the Western churches and synagogues was held March 25. In the Greek churches and Synagogues they said it was April 6. Until this time they celebrated the feast of the Annunciation on what ever day Passover landed on. After this time the western church celebrated the feast of the Annunciation every March 25 and April 6 in the eastern churches.

 

As you see so far little though was given to December 25 by these people who were focused on Passover. They were not saying "December 25 is important to the Pagans, so let's take there day for the birth of Isaac or the birth of Jesus. Yet if you add 9 months to Passover you get to the December time frame. Thus we have about 100 years of celebrating the feast of the Annunciation first on Passover, then every March 25 or April 6.

 

In the third century they added 9 months to March 25 and came to December 25 (or in eastern churches they added 9 months to April 6 and came to December 6, the Orthodox Christmas).

 

So we have a few hundred years of Jews believing that Isaac was either conceived or born on Passover. And we had 200 years of Christians believing that Jesus was the antitype of Isaac and that since the type Isaac was conceived at Passover so did Mary become pregnant with Jesus at Passover and 100 years of Christians adding 9 months to March 25 to see his birth as December 25 before Constantine makes Christianity a legal religion.

 

At the best it would be that December 25 was a day that both the church and pagans held in common. However some historians are arguing that while there is evidence of different December holidays dealing with say the solar solstice, that none had specifically December 25 until after Christianity became a legal religion that the pagans turned their attention to December 25 and pretended that they always kept it. If these historians are right then we did not get December 25 from the Pagans but they got it from the Christians.

 

Also, the feasts of the land: Passover, Yom Kippur etc. are the pagan feasts dealing with the agricultural cycle of that piece of Geography. It was not celebrated where their agricultural cycles were different. It was the Canaanites who kept them first long before Abraham. Thus the Jews got them from the pagans.

[Gregory Matthews]

On the one hand, just about everything can be associated with pagan rituals.  If you think about it, the act of conception can be associated with pagan fertility rites!  so, should that mean that no one should ever participate in an act of conception?  Well, such would soon bring an end to overpopulation issues.

 

Sorry about that folks, but I could not help myself and I had to post this.  [Well, actually I am not sorry about posting it.]   

[Ron Amnsn]

 

so you are one of those who assumes that anything that has its deep origins in anything that isn't sufficiently "Christian" should be tossed out as having evil emanations which can harm you?

 

Those are your words, not mine.  What are "evil emanations"? 

 

I am more interested in whether something is Scriptural than whether it is "Christian" because the church of the Roman empire intentionally brought elements of pagan worship into their church and "Christianized" them in order to make pagans feel welcome in the church.  When the Israelites brought pagan worship elements into God's Temple, God said he hated their feasts and the Israelites were sent into exile.  God has called His people to be holy. Is anyone interested in what holy looks like in modern life?  Jesus drove the merchants from the Temple, not because their religious commerce had evil emanations, but because it didn't belong in the Temple, even though it had evolved there for supposedly "good" reasons. 

 

As Gregory has pointed out, we do many things that pagans do (such as brushing our teeth and walking in the woods). If the act of conception had originated with pagans, we might do well to avoid it. But the Scriptures tell us that God invented the act of conception and actually commanded us to be fruitful and multiply. But God also instructed that acts of conception, even between a man and his wife, were to be kept very separate from worship services.  The pagans distorted God's gift of sex and included immoral sexual activities in the worship of their gods.  We don't need to avoid the gifts that God gave us.  But when those good things are distorted and brought into worship, where they don't belong, why wouldn't we want to be discerning?  God created both sheep and wolves, yet Jesus admonished us to enter through the narrow gate and to walk the narrow way that few people find, while avoiding the false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but are actually ravenous wolves.

 

Jesus said "I am the truth", so we should expect that celebrations that honor him would be truthful.  But when we look at christmas, how much truth is there?  It is celebrated at the wrong season, on a date chosen for the wrong reasons. It includes "santa", a mythical being with supernatural abilities  who get's to decide whether you've been bad or good (judgement), and we sing about these qualities of his.  And some people put out milk and cookies to "feed" this god-like being who is the source of good things.  This santa imposter acquired these attributes and traditions within the past century or two, so we can't blame him on ancient pagans or dark unknown origins. He is a god of our own making, and our culture has successfully exported him all around the world, instead of spreading the actual gospel of Jesus.

[Ron Amnsn]

Also, the feasts of the land: Passover, Yom Kippur etc. are the pagan feasts dealing with the agricultural cycle of that piece of Geography. It was not celebrated where their agricultural cycles were different. It was the Canaanites who kept them first long before Abraham. Thus the Jews got them from the pagans.

 

Where is the documentation for this, Kevin?  If you believe that humans evolved from cave men and apes, then the idea that the pagans invented God's feasts before Abraham would be plausible.  But if the Bible is true (which it is) then all humans would be descended from Adam and Eve and all their descendents would carry with them fragments of the truths that God taught at creation. We know from the story of Cain and Abel that God was particular about the details of worship. (Although there is no record of God teaching those details to Adam's family, that teaching apparently occurred because Cain was expected to know already,  Cain also showed knowledge of certain requirements of the Law of Moses, which weren't recorded in Scripture until centuries later.).  Genesis 1:14 tells us that God had "appointed times" (mistranslated as "seasons") in place from the beginning, marked by the sun and moon.  So who are you going to believe, the Word of God, or the archeologists who often want to show that the Bible is false?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

 

"santa", a mythical being

 

**gasp**  he's MYTHICAL???  

[aka]

Horrors!

St.Nic is mythical .....  imagine that!

[Gregory Matthews]

History reveals that St. Nick actually existed, as probably most know.

[aka]

     

 

 

(in edit mode:  Oh dear, it started again. I can't see the uploaded pic of mine)

[Lauralea]

Ther is nothing in the Bible to my knowledge that forbids Christmas trees. Does the public at large overcommercialize Christmas? Many do. Do some lose sight of Christ in all the hubbub? Yes but we do not have to.

[Sojourner]

Why is it that people that oppose Christmas Trees and the Christmas holiday as Pagan always accept the public holiday from work? 

[Ron Amnsn]

**gasp**  he's MYTHICAL???  

 

Horrors!

St.Nic is mythical .....  imagine that!

 

History reveals that St. Nick actually existed, as probably most know.

 

How much does the historical saint Nicholas have in common with santa claus?  Not much.