Are Adventists to warn of the coming apostasy?

[Robert]

“Seventh-day Adventists have been given a work of the most solemn import—the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels messages.  There is no other work of so great importance.  They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention.” 9T 19

[Robert]

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation and tribe and language and people. 

 

1st message:

 

7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come; and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

2nd message:

 

 8 Then another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." 

 

3rd message:

 

9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, crying with a loud voice, "Those who worship the beast and its image, and receive a mark on their foreheads or on their hands, 10 they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

[Robert]

In a nutshell

 

The 1st message is the restoration of the gospel. It is the preaching of the everlasting gospel as preached by the Apostles.

 

The 2nd message warns of Babylon's fall.  This message specifically points out the sins of Babylon.  It is a message that exposes the whore of Babylon.

 

The 3rd message is a stern warning to those who remain in Babylon.  Those who receive her mark of authority will come under the curse of the law.  They will suffer the second death.

 

Slowing this message down is what Ellen White refers to as "the superficial, conservative class" within Adventism:

 

“The work which the church has failed to do (present the 3 messages of the angel of Rev 14) in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us.”  {Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, 463.2}

[Robert]

In a nutshell

 

The 1st message is the restoration of the gospel. It is the preaching of the everlasting gospel as preached by the Apostles.

 

 

This is going on now within the church.  The gospel is what Christ, as the Son of God and the Son of Man, did in order to legally redeem the fallen, human race from under law to under grace.  The gospel, therefore, doesn't made void the law, it answers the law in the doing & dying of Christ.  

 

What does the law demand?  The sinners death.  "The person who sins must die".  "In Christ" our old life from Adam (the life we all share) died in Him on the cross.  Hence the justice of the law has been legally satisfied.  So "in Christ" we stand perfect in the doing & dying of our Savior.  We are complete in Him.  

 

As we rest in His finished work, of which the Sabbath is a sign, we begin to reflect Christ more and more....This is the fruit of receiving the gospel.

[Robert]

The 2nd message warns of Babylon's fall. This message specifically points out the sins of Babylon. It is a message that exposes the whore of Babylon.

What does the gospel do?

It places the glory of man in the dust....Let me quote Ellen White:

"What is justification by faith (receiving the gospel by faith) ? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself (i.e., saving him in Christ Jesus alone). When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Those whom heaven recognizes as holy ones are the last to parade their own goodness." [The faith I live by, p 111]

What's the problem with Babylon?

She gives glory to herself just like Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon did in the OT:

Dan 4:30 "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the glory of my majesty?"

Christ tell us that all the Scribes and Pharisees did was "to be seen by men". They loved to bring glory to themselves.

Then you have the falling away and the establishment of the Papacy. Who is getting the glory, God or man?

So the 2nd message is give glory to God our Savior, not men.

Even within the SDA church there's an element of Babylon:

"Men are in the habit of glorifying men and exalting men. It makes me shudder to see or hear of it, for there have been revealed to me not a few cases where the homelife and inner work of the hearts of those very men are full of selfishness. They are corrupt, polluted, vile; and nothing that comes from all their doings can elevate them with God, for all that they do is an abomination in His sight." [Through Faith Alone Part 2, A general manuscript written by Ellen G. White circa 1890]

[Robert]

More on 2nd angel's message:

 

http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels3.htm

[Gregory Matthews]

Warning people of apostasy who have not been converted to Christ is ineffective.

 

In the times in which we are living, we cannot assume that anyone has been converted to Christ.

 

People who have been converted to Christ and also matured in their faith, may already have developed their understanding of apostasy and not need to be again warned.

 

First things must come first.

 

The Holy Spirit does not always lead first into apostasy.

[Robert]

The warning, Gregory, are to those in Babylon....Re-read Rev 14:6-10

[Tom Wetmore]

I think we greatly misunderstand what is meant by Babylon.  The call out of Babylon is equated to the call out of exile, to return home.    It is call, not to apostates, but a call to God own people to end their exile and go home to the Promised Land. 

[Robert]

The context states that it is a call to to accept "the everlasting gospel" and to leave those institutions that preach "another gospel".

[Robert]

Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor. 2 He called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul bird, a haunt of every foul and hateful beast. 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxury." 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you do not take part in her sins, and so that you do not share in her plagues; 5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed. 7 As she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, so give her a like measure of torment and grief. Since in her heart she says, "I rule as a queen; I am no widow, and I will never see grief,' 8 therefore her plagues will come in a single day— pestilence and mourning and famine— and she will be burned with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who judges her." 9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning; 10they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas, alas, the great city, Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come."

[LifeHiscost]

First things must come first.

 

The Holy Spirit does not always lead first into apostasy.

I'm satisfied the Holy Spirit never leads into Babylon (confusion) as per God's answer to the prayer He asks us to pray.

 

13And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.....Matt 6

 

And I also believe when reading Revelation 14:6-10, if we leave out verses 11 and 12 a major portion identifying  the believer is missing.

 

11The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

12This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus....Revelation 14

 

OTOH I also believe if one is not introduced to Jesus as a Friend first, the growth of grace can be problematic, to which Gregory alluded.

 

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil....Hebrews 5

 

The last revealing the importance of staying close to the Word on a daily basis.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Rev 18:7 As she glorified herself...

What is the similarity between actual Babylon & symbolic Babylon? Look at Babylon's king:

Dan 4:30 " Is this not great Babylon, which I have made for the living-place of kings, by the strength of my power and for the glory of my honor?

What does the believer, resting in the finished work of Christ, do?

Gal 6:14 "But may it never be that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world."

Phil 3:3 "For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh."

Notice that the believer (not the apostate) glories, not in himself, but in Christ Jesus. The believer has no confidence in himself.

What does Paul mean by placing no confidence or glory in one's self? Context:

Phil 3:4 If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more:

5 circumcised on the eighth day, (glory in his circumcision, according to the law)

a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews (glory in his lineage)

as to the law, a Pharisee; (glory in his position)

6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; (glory in his killing in the name of God)

as to righteousness under the law, blameless. (glory in his law performance).

Saul, turned Paul, came out of Babylon. He repented....He placed no confidence in his attainments, but instead counted them all as dung, that he might be found "in Christ". That's the gospel.

So the gospel demands we say with Paul, "may it never be that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"

[Robert]

"...our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone. We shall make the apostle’s confession our own. “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing.” Romans 7:18. “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Galatians 6:14." (Ellen White)

Now contrast the Papacy with Paul.

Here's Paul: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing.” Romans 7:18.

The Papacy: "Holy Father"; "His Holiness"; "Vicar of Christ"

Where is pride and where is "no confidence in the flesh"?

[Robert]

"While they (the Scribes and Pharisees) claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature; and as the Saviour showed the contrast between His own spirit and methods and those of the rabbis, His teaching is equally applicable to the people of all time.

In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue. At the same time they paraded their acts of charity before the people in order to attract their attention and gain a reputation for sanctity." [Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing, 79,80]

[Tom Wetmore]

It is not just about the Papacy....

[Robert]

It is not just about the Papacy....

True.....

 

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:1, 2, 4.

 

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations (plural) that constitute Babylon...." GC 603

[Robert]

"You know, we have an advantage. We have history behind us: the history of Nebuchadnezzar, the history of the fall of Babylon, the history of the Jews. And yet we are making the same mistake. The world is making the same mistake. We are not learning. We have to go through the same thing all over again. But it is my prayer that we will not be among those who will join Babylon.

 

So it is possible to be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church and be part of Babylon. Where there is self, you belong to Babylon. So please don’t say that I am an Adventist and out of Babylon. Be careful. Where there is self, there you have Babylon. That is why we must humble ourselves and say “Lord, in me, that is in my human nature, there is nothing good. Nothing good. But thank God in your Son I have everything. I have salvation, I have power, I have peace and it is not ‘I.’” (J. Sequeira)  http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels3.htm

[Robert]

Tom has a point....Remember, according to Ellen White, many SDA will join Babylon...and many in Babylon (including those in the Roman Church) will come out.

 

Now, instead of focusing on the Papacy, I'll turn to the SDA church (now I'm in trouble):

 

“The people of God (here EGW is writing to SDA) are represented in the message to the Laodiceans as in a position of carnal (which is another word for fleshly) security.  They are at ease, believing themselves to be in an exalted condition of spiritual attainment.”   [3T 252]

 

"You have left your first love. Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people." [Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1904]

[Robert]

"We (i.e., SDA) may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness." [sC 29]

[Tom Wetmore]

Rather than trying to identify a specific "who" symbolized by Babylon, my study of Revelation has tried to focus more on the "what" of the characteristics that distinguish Babylon to its downfall.  Once understood, those can be seen corporately in some organizations, but also just as easily present individually.  That should be our own focus to be certain our own character does not hold those same faults.

[Robert]

It is not just about the Papacy....

 

 

Babylon is more than just the Papacy....Babylon includes apostate Protestantism.

 

However, the anti-Christ is another subject.  Sure "the anti-Christ" is part of Babylon, but SDA teach that the Papacy is the anti-Christ.  That you can't get around.

 

Here's Sequeira:  "We as a church uphold what is known as the “Historicist” position.  This is the position that was promoted by the Reformation; so we are of the Reformation line, in terms of interpreting Daniel and Revelation.  The other two are “Preterist” and “Futurist,” and then there’s a third one called “Idealist.”  Now let me explain each one of them quickly.  Let’s start with the Historicist.

 

The Reformers believed that both Daniel and Revelation were books that revealed the history of the world and the Christian church beginning at the time of the writers, i.e., with Daniel, about 600 years before Christ, and with John, about 100 years after Christ.  They begin there and they give a continuous account of history, ending with the last day events.

 

If you follow this school, this line of thought, it interprets the little horn of Daniel and the Antichrist of Revelation as being the Papacy and the fulfilment of these two symbols.

 

Now you can imagine that the Roman Catholic church did not like this.  So how did they counteract this interpretation?  They came up with two different schools of thought.  The Preterist teaches that all the prophecies of Revelation and Daniel were fulfilled within a short period of time of the writers.

 

For example, by the second century B.C., all the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled.  By the third century A.D., all the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled.  Which means that the papacy was not included in the prophecies; so the Preterist view helped the Catholic Church to escape from being identified with the Little Horn and the Antichrist.

 

The Futurist, which is also a Roman Catholic interpretation of the prophecies, says that some of the prophecies were fulfilled in Daniel’s and John’s time, and others will be fulfilled at the end of church history, and in between that time there is a gap.  And, of course, that in-between period is the history of the Roman Catholic church; that is not included, they say.

 

Now, I can understand the Roman Catholics trying to use these two schools of interpretation to defend themselves.  But the tragedy is that gradually the Protestant churches have accepted these views, so that today there is no denomination that upholds the Historicist view except the Seventh-day Adventist Church.  We are the only ones, as a denomination, that upholds the Historicist interpretation of Daniel and Revelation.

 

Most Protestants now take the Futurist and Preterist interpretation.  And this gap theory, which includes, for instance, the 70 weeks, they say 69 weeks were fulfilled in Daniel’s time, the 70th week will be fulfilled at the end of time, and there’s a gap.  Those who believe in the rapture teach that, the Dispensationalists teach that.  So we are kind of unique.  But if you look at these two books, you will see that they are historical.  The Historicist is a very clear approach.

[Robert]

Babylon is more than just the Papacy....Babylon includes apostate Protestantism.

 

"The fallen denominational churches are Babylon. Babylon has been fostering poisonous doctrines, the wine of error. This wine of error is made up of false doctrines, such as the natural immortality of the soul, the eternal torment of the wicked, the denial of the pre-existence of Christ prior to His birth in Bethlehem, and advocating and exalting the first day of the week above God's holy and sanctified day. These and kindred errors are presented to the world by the various churches, and thus the Scriptures are fulfilled that say, `For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.' It is a wrath which is created by false doctrines, and when kings and presidents drink this wine of the wrath of her fornication, they are stirred with anger against those who will not come into harmony with the false and satanic heresies which exalt the false sabbath, and lead men to trample underfoot God's memorial." [TM 61]

[Robert]

Jack states the following:  "We as a church have identified the beast as the papal system, not necessarily the Roman Catholic Christians, but the system, and the image as apostate Protestantism in the U.S. But the thing I want you to notice is that both these powers, both these agents have received power from the dragon who is defined in Revelation 12:9 as Satan, the serpent.  

 

Therefore the beast and the image of the beast are Satan’s agents on earth who in these last days will be used by Satan to oppose the everlasting gospel and persecute those who accept and proclaim it. So that’s what the beast and his image is."

 

The question, then, is what is "the gospel"?

 

All denominations teach a hybrid of the Papal's gospel of "the immaculate conception".  It is even taught among SDA.  John states that anyone who teaches a false of gospel is anti-Christ.  Let's review this:

 

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." 2 John 2:17

[Robert]

What does Paul state of those who preach "another gospel"?

 

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!