What was the "yoke of bondage" ?

[Ron Amnsn]

Today - in the United States at least, newborn infants are most often circumcised - usually on day one or two, before being sent home.  Does THIS physical circumcision COUNT ?  Would such a man later be admitted to the Temple court  (assuming the Temple is rebuilt)? 

 

That depends on who you ask.

 

It is not done on the eighth day, so it doesn't exactly match the instructions God gave. But that is also true of any circumcision done after the eighth day, such as an adult convert to Judaism would receive.

 

It certainly wouldn't meet the requirements of those who insist that Gentiles be circumcised according to the man-made traditions of Jewish "oral law".  If a person circumcised on day one or two were to convert to Judaism later in life, the rabbis would require them to be circumcised.  In cases where there is already no foreskin, I've heard that modern Jews make a small cut to draw blood.

 

I think if you asked the apostle Paul or Abraham, I think they would say that a person who was circumcised as an infant but not on the eighth day would "count" as circumcised, if the person desires to honor God's covenant, similar to Ishmael's circumcision which was not done on the eighth day.  But if a person does not desire to honor God's covenant, their circumcision is the same as uncircumcision. (Romans 2:25)

[Ron Amnsn]

WHEN the entrance veil - 80 feet high, and 3 inches thick - with a glorious depiction of "the heavens" on it - was torn from top to bottom, by God the Father Himself,

THAT was the end of that system.    Jesus yelled it out.  "It is finished!" 

 

What God has done, cannot be undone.  Just because the Levites hung up a new veil, doesn't mean that veil is not STILL torn in the eyes of God. 

 

The Most Holy Place was dark and empty - no Ark, no Law, no glory - just like the heart of its rulers.

 

That's what man-made traditions have taught for centuries.  But when we go to Scripture to try to confirm that teaching, as the Bereans would have done, we can't find that interpretation of the tearing of the veil taught anywhere in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament.  The only thing that Scripture says is that the veil was torn from top to bottom (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45) and that the veil represented the flesh of Jesus (Hebrews 10:20).  That's the meaning that the Scriptures themselves give to the tearing of the veil.  Everything else is man-made doctrine, most of which contradicts what is written in Scripture.

 

In your description of the tearing of the veil you depict the veil as if it represents the heavens, but Hebrews 10:20 says the veil represents the flesh of Messiah. 

 

You say that the "It" of "It is finished!" represents the sanctuary services and priesthood described in the Law of Moses, but Jesus taught that nothing would disappear from the written Law until everything is fulfilled and heaven and earth pass away.  As you know, there are several prophetic things depicted by the sanctuary services that have not yet been fulfilled, such as the Feast of Trumpets, the final judgment, and the Feast of Tabernacles.  And there are many prophecies in the Old and New Testaments that are not yet fulfilled.

[Ron Amnsn]

The Most Holy Place was dark and empty - no Ark, no Law, no glory - just like the heart of its rulers.

 

What you describe after the tearing of the veil as "dark and empty" was no different than before the veil was torn.  The Most Holy Place of the second Temple had never contained the Ark of the Covenant.  Yet the Scriptures describe Jesus as being zealous for the Temple.  Why shouldn't we have the same attitude as Jesus?

[8thdaypriest]

You say that the "It" of "It is finished!" represents the sanctuary services and priesthood described in the Law of Moses, but Jesus taught that nothing would disappear from the written Law until everything is fulfilled and heaven and earth pass away.  As you know, there are several prophetic things depicted by the sanctuary services that have not yet been fulfilled, such as the Feast of Trumpets, the final judgment, and the Feast of Tabernacles.  And there are many prophecies in the Old and New Testaments that are not yet fulfilled.

There are prophecies of the "new earth" and prophecies of the Kingdom of Messiah, so - you're saying that EVEN AFTER the "heavens pass away with a great noise" at the Second Coming, there will STILL be animal sacrifice because the prophecies of the "new earth" have not yet been fulfilled?? 

 

I don't buy that EVERY SINGLE PROPHECY of Scripture has to be fulfilled. 

At the very least - when the "heavens pass away" at the Second Coming, THAT would be WHEN the Law (as it pertains to sacrifices) can be declared fulfilled, and changed. 

 

And I was saying that the veil of the Temple had a glorious portrayal of the "universe" or the "heavens". 

The "heavens" portrayed on that veil, were torn. 

[Ron Amnsn]

What WAS a "sign of righteousness" before Christ came to circumcise us, BECAME "nothing" but a "mutilation" of the flesh AFTER Christ replaced that physical rite with His own circumcision of our heart and (one day soon) circumcision of our flesh. 

 

You've said that before.  Saying it again doesn't make it true.

[Ron Amnsn]

During the period from Abraham to Christ, physical circumcision was "the seal".

 

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith"  (Rom 4:11 KJV)

 

Since Christ, the anointing of the Spirit is now the seal.

 

"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13 NIV)

 

The verse in Ephesians doesn't actually say what you have asserted.  The NIV takes a verb "you were sealed" and morphs it into a noun "a seal".  But even if the NIV was actually an accurate translation, you would have to stretch the NIV considerably to make it say that the Holy Spirit replaces circumcision as the seal of God's covenant.  That interpretation conflicts with other things Paul said and wrote.

[8thdaypriest]

Ron,

I believe the Sinai Covenant was rendered OBSOLETE, when the betrothed "husband" died on that cross. 

 

The LORD had to make a NEW betrothal covenant with His redeemed people (everyone who would believe in the Son of God). 

 

Romans 7:1  “Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
    2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
    4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead” (NAS).

    That first marriage covenant really is obsolete.  It was rendered obsolete when the “husband” of Israel died.   The “new covenant” is a “new” marriage covenant.
 

 

Under the NEW Covenant of Marriage, the LORD will write His Law on our hearts. 

Under the NEW Covenant, we have a NEW remedy for sins. 

 

Nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated almost word for word in the Apostolic Writings. 

The Sabbath was created BEFORE sin, and will remain AFTER win is no more (Isa. 66:22-23).

 

If the commands concerning sacrifice are to be "written on our hearts", that would mean they will be continued forever.  (At least the "whole burnt offering" and the "peace offering".)

I don't believe all that DEATH will be continued forever.

DEATH is thrown into the "lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14).  It will NOT continue forever. 

"There will be no more death."  (Rev. 21:4)  I don't think the LORD is referring only to the death of people. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Robert]

That first marriage covenant really is obsolete. 

 

 

No, it is alive and well.  Unless one accepts his death "in Christ" he remain under the old covenant.

[8thdaypriest]

No, it is alive and well.  Unless one accepts his death "in Christ" he remain under the old covenant.

Hmmmm. 

So - you're saying that those Israelites who did NOT (or do NOT) enter in to the New Betrothal Covenant with the risen glorified Christ, remained/remain under the Sinai Covenant? 

 

And every Gentile, who has not entered into ANY covenant, remains under WHAT? 

Remains under the Eden Covenant - "You will surely die" ??

[Robert]

Hmmmm. 

So - you're saying that those Israelites who did NOT (or do NOT) enter in to the New Betrothal Covenant with the risen glorified Christ, remained/remain under the Sinai Covenant? 

 

And every Gentile, who has not entered into ANY covenant, remains under WHAT? 

Remains under the Eden Covenant - "You will surely die" ??

 

 

Why make things hard?  Paul is very, very clear especially in Romans & Galatians.  I'll give you Romans 3:9-19

 

9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they (the Gentiles)? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin. 

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; .....

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those (both Jew & Gentile) who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

 

Now, who is "under law"?  Answer:  "All the world", i.e,  the human race consisting of Jews and Gentiles.  Everyone, outside those who have not reached the age of accountability, who reject the gospel are "under law".

[Robert]

Here's another:

 

2 Cor 3:7 ....the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones (the ten commandments)....

14 But their (the Jews) minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant  (the terms of the law) the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 

15 But to this day (i.e., sometime after the cross) whenever Moses is read (i.e, the book of the law), a veil lies over their heart; 

16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 

 

 

So the Jew who has rejected Christ remains under the ministry of death, but the Jew who believes on Christ goes from under law to under grace.

[8thdaypriest]

 

Why make things hard?  Paul is very, very clear especially in Romans & Galatians.  I'll give you Romans 3:9-19

 

9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they (the Gentiles)? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin. 

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; .....

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those (both Jew & Gentile) who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

 

Now, who is "under law"?  Answer:  "All the world", i.e,  the human race consisting of Jews and Gentiles.  Everyone, outside those who have not reached the age of accountability, who reject the gospel are "under law".

 

I agree Robert.  Thanks

So - What (in your opinion) was the "yoke of bondage" that the Jerusalem Council did NOT want to put on the Gentiles who were turning to God, thru Christ?

[Robert]

 

So - What (in your opinion) was the "yoke of bondage" that the Jerusalem Council did NOT want to put on the Gentiles who were turning to God, thru Christ?

 

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 

 

 

Salvation is through grace, not works.  In this context the Apostles and Elders had circumcision and the book of the law in mind.  The book of the law is the first, five books of the OT, which includes the Ten Commandments.  

[Robert]

Does this mean the law of Ten Commandments is meaningless?  No. What it means is the law is no longer binding in matters of salvation.  We are saved by Christ's doing & dying plus nothing else.  However, as we rest in His finished work (of which the Sabbath is a sign) we grow more and  more in harmony with the law of Ten Commandments.  Therefore the law is a standard for Christian living.....

[Robert]

 

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 

 

 

Salvation is through grace, not works.  In this context the Apostles and Elders had circumcision and the book of the law in mind.  The book of the law is the first, five books of the OT, which includes the Ten Commandments.  

 

 

Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died (i.e., in the humanity of Christ, see Rom 7:4) to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e., the demands of the law).

 

 

What law is Paul writing about?

 

 

Verse 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." 

 

 

What law states "you shall not covet"?  The moral law.

 

 

Why have we been delivered from under law?  Because we are "falling short" of its spiritual demands. See Roman 3:23.  While the law is "holy, just and good" to be under law means the curse.  This can be seen in Gal 3:10

 

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

 

The law does not grade on the curve.  Either you are 100% compliant or you are under its curse, which is the 2nd death.  That's why we had to be delivered.

 

Now, just because we aren't under the law doesn't mean we sin as a lifestyle.  This is covered in Gal 5:19-21.  Why?  Because we have God's Spirit in us.

[8thdaypriest]

Robert,

I think you put it very well.  I've been saying for a couple of years now, that the Sinai Covenant was a Covenant of Marriage, and as such, it was rendered "obsolete" when Yeshua died. 

The betrothed "groom" DIED.  And the bride DIED (that's those of us who are) "in Him".

 

There is a study on my website titled "Two Covenants".  The HR and Messianic  movements say that it is a "Renewed" Covenant, NOT a "New" Covenant.  I disagree completely. 

 

If YOU become a Jew, and thereby ENTER IN TO the Sinai Covenant, then you are "cursed" (especially if you deny Jesus Christ in the process).  

That is WHY I believe the current nation of Israel is doomed.  The state religion is Judaism, which requires one to deny Jesus Christ as Messiah or Son of God.  

That state actually BLOCKS Christian websites.  They confiscated my book, when my friend mailed it to her niece over there.

 

I agree that the Ten Commandments are the standard of Christian behavior.  They are the promise of what HE will write on our hearts. 

 

The Sabbath was declared "holy" (the LORD's) BEFORE sin entered, and will be the day for gathering and worship AFTER sin is no more.

The only thing the commandment said was "remember" the Sabbath, by resting on that day, as the SIGN that you remember HIM also.

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin." (Rom 3:9 NKJ)

 

"But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Gal 3:22 NKJ)

 

ALL were "under sin".  SOME have entered into the "New Covenant".  (They are betrothed to Yeshua.)

 

Where I differ with most on this forum, is in my belief that "probation" (the period during which a person may come to Christ)

will be continued for those who, because of age circumstance, or disability,  did NOT have the opportunity to CHOOSE Christ. 

 

Those who died in ignorance (who could not choose) will be resurrected at the 8th millennium as "the rest of the dead".

The redeemed from the "first resurrection" will become "priests of God and of Christ".

They will teach and govern those who are resurrected "second".

 

One must HEAR, before one can BELIEVE. 

One must believe before one can "BE BORN AGAIN". 

 

After ENTRY into the "New Covenant, folks have still to "learn the ways of the LORD". 

The rebellious spirit still within, struggles against the WILL of God (For example: The Sabbath, or dietary restrictions, or sexual restrictions). 

 

The Battle of Gog and Magog is a rebellion of those from among the "rest of the dead" who refuse Christ. 

 

Details of my view, with supporting Scriptures are on my website.

[Robert]

ALL were "under sin". 

 

 

No, it doesn't state the past tense.  All are (present tense) under sin.  Sin being defined by our bent-to-self (i.e., self-love).  

 

Romans 3:23 states that all have sinned and that all are continuing to fall short of God's agape love.  To be a sinner under law means death so Christ legally delivered the human race from under law to under grace by assuming our corporate, fallen humanity into Himself (i.e., His Deity).

 

For thirty something years He lived a perfect life and because our corporate humanity was in Him we were made righteous.  But because He took our polluted fallen life that life, our life, had to take the curse.  Hence we died to the law in humanity of Christ.  See Rom 7:4/6:6

 

This is the gospel, but sad to say very few denominations are preaching "the everlasting gospel".  Instead they preach an unethical gospel.  Clearly most gospels being preach throughout Christendom are polluted with Roman's heresy of the immaculate conception.

[8thdaypriest]

I believe that Jesus WON the right to forgive any human being.  THAT is what He WON by His "perfect" life and death. 

 

He recovered "dominion" of the earth which Satan "stole" by deception - which resulted in the disobedience of Adam.

(Disobedience LOST the "dominion".  Perfect obedience REGAINED the "dominion")

 

Dominion of earth includes every human being made of "earth dirt".  

This is WHY "all judgment is committed to the Son".  

 

Jesus promised to "save" any human being who would "believe" in Him as the Son of God.  

So yes - we are absolutely "saved" by grace, through faith.

 

Where most "believers" miss the big picture, is in believing that they are only saved from the consequences of sin (i.e. - the "curse").

 

But the "saving" is NOT just being moved from earth to a wonderful heavenly place.

The "saving" is about being "changed" - in heart. 

The "saving" is about being "saved" from sinning, as well as from the consequences of sins committed.

That process of change is included in the "saving". 

 

How much of that process we complete in this life, will vary from person to person. 

The point is that we must begin the process - of being changed by HIM. 

Perfect circumcision of the heart is a process that will not be complete until 1000 years+ AFTER the Second Coming.

 

I do NOT BELIEVE that Jesus will instantly plug in a "perfection chip" at the Second Coming. 

THAT would be mind manipulation.  God NEVER uses that option. 

[Robert]

I believe that Jesus WON the right to forgive any human being.  THAT is what He WON by His "perfect" life and death. 

 

 

You mean He didn't have the right to already? He had to earn it?

 

 How did His death, instead of yours, answer the demands of God's law?

[Robert]

So yes - we are absolutely "saved" by grace, through faith.

That would mean that Christ's doing and dying is meaningless until the sinner accepts. The fact is that Christ has saved (past tense) the human race in Himself, but many refuse that salvation.

Let's look at Eph 2:4-9

God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses (i.e., unbelieving sinners), made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Notice, please, that while you were a sinner God saved you 2000 years ago in Christ Jesus. You were saved by grace! Nothing in verse 5 about faith. So Christ saved you 2000 years ago. You can add nothing to His legal justification of you through the gospel. Yes, hopefully you have received the gospel through faith, but your faith didn't make it so. You were already saved in Christ....That is why infants, who die before the age of accountability, will be in heaven. What saved them...their faith? No, they couldn't comprehend such things.

Go to Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

Christ, has legally justified "all men" by His doing & dying so that all men are born "saved by grace".....Then when men reach the age that they can comprehend their need of Christ it must be received by faith. Hence justification by faith.

[8thdaypriest]

You mean He didn't have the right to already? He had to earn it?

 

 How did His death, instead of yours, answer the demands of God's law?

Yes - exactly.  He had to earn it AS A HUMAN. 

Humans lost it.

Only a human could win it back. 

Satan based his claim to "dominion" of earth, on his claim that NO HUMAN could or ever would obey the LORD completely.  (See Job as example.)

[Robert]

Yes - exactly.  He had to earn it AS A HUMAN. 

Humans lost it.

 

Well, what do you do with a sin polluted planet?  It's ruined.  It's like taking over garbage.  In the end He will burn it up....Why take over it????

[8thdaypriest]

God's Law said, "Dominion" of earth was given to "mankind" ON CONDITION of obedience.  (Gen. 1:26-28, and Psa 8:3-8).

Man disobeyed.  Man (along with his entire dominion) would DIE.  (Earth is in the process of dieing.)

 

Jesus will be given "dominion" at the judgment which will take place in Heaven (I believe in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement types) on the final day of this AGE.

Jesus has NOT YET been given "dominion".

 

Daniel 7:9-10 “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days [God the Father] was seated . . . Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.  The court was seated and the books were opened.”  

    Daniel 7:13-14  “I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven!  He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.  Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed”  

 

When Jesus receives "dominion" He will share it with redeemed human beings.
 

[8thdaypriest]

Well, what do you do with a sin polluted planet?  It's ruined.  It's like taking over garbage.  In the end He will burn it up....Why take over it????

In order to heal and restore it. 

 

Mankind is "sin polluted" just like the planet.  But HE can heal and restore men too.