The true gospel must legally fulfill God's law....

[Robert]

What do I mean by "the true gospel must legally fulfill God's law"?

 

Ez 18:19 ....'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

The Bible teaches that guilt can't be transferred legally under law.  The law demands that the sinner must die, not the sinless.

 

All false gospels teach that Christ vicariously died in the sinners place and that this constitutes the gospel.  In fact all false gospels have their connection to the Immaculate Conception as taught by Roman.

 

The true gospel must answer the following:

 

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? 

[Robert]

Answer:  "By His obedience to all the commandments of God (the law), Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption."  EGW

 

You see Roman states that you are saved by infused grace.  That's where Jesus comes into you via the Holy Spirit and saves you. Hence salvation through merit.

 

But Paul, as does EGW, teaches that to in order to save the human race Christ did not go "out of Himself to another, but (took) humanity into Himself."

 

That humanity belonged to all of us, corporately, because we all share Adam's fallen life. So we can say that our old life from Adam died when Christ was crucified (see Rom 6:6).  Thus the justice of the law has been legally answered because as far as the law is concerned our corporate life died and therefore we have been legally delivered from under law.  

 

The immaculate conception denies this truth.  Therefore it is "another gospel", i.e., a heresy.

[Scuba]

Many people misunderstand what the immaculate conception means. They think it means Jesus was born without sin. The true meaning is not that Jesus was born without sin, but rather, Mary was born without sin. This is why you will soon see Mary having a position in the Godhead and deserving worship.

[JoeMo]

Many people misunderstand what the immaculate conception means. They think it means Jesus was born without sin. The true meaning is not that Jesus was born without sin, but rather, Mary was born without sin. This is why you will soon see Mary having a position in the Godhead and deserving worship.

Please tell me this is not another subtle bad-mouthing of the RCC and the papacy.  The longer people focus on this, the more likely they will miss the real deal.  Look around you - the threat if not in Rome - it is in the Middle East.  It is time to wake up to this increasingly likely scenario.

[CoAspen]

As long as the focus is on what constitutes a 'threat', we will all be lost. There is only one threat, ourselves! Do we accept Christ as our savior and keep that relationship? All else is Satan's plan for our destruction, get their eyes off Christ!!

[LifeHiscost]

Please tell me this is not another subtle bad-mouthing of the RCC and the papacy.  The longer people focus on this, the more likely they will miss the real deal.  Look around you - the threat if not in Rome - it is in the Middle East.  It is time to wake up to this increasingly likely scenario.

Please tell me how this Word below can be fulfilled while somebody other than God Himself directs the path of mankind?

 

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them....Revelation 14

 

So long as we're satisfied to preach another gospel than that which was preached we will be purposely avoiding God's direction, supplanting it with "ye shall not surely die".

 

…7'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' 8"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." 9He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.…Mark 7 Emphasis theirs'   LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Please tell me this is not another subtle bad-mouthing of the RCC and the papacy.  

 

So let's downplay the warnings in Scripture concerning the Papacy?

[Robert]

 The longer people focus on this, the more likely they will miss the real deal.  Look around you - the threat if not in Rome - it is in the Middle East. 

 

And already the US has diplomatic relationships with the Vatican in fighting this so called threat. What is the Vatican's motive?  Is it out of unconditional love or to cozy up to the most powerful nation in the world so that she can regain her power?

 

"His word [the Bible] has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is."

[Robert]

There is only one threat, ourselves! Do we accept Christ as our savior and keep that relationship? All else is Satan's plan for our destruction, get their eyes off Christ!!

 

Hence the warning of the "man of sin"....The warnings are there because of your inward threat, that is your nature.  

[Robert]

Anyway, I don't want this to get dragged off the topic.  The topic is the gospel.  There's only one, not many.  Roman and most the Protestants churches, including elements of Adventism, preaches "another gospel".

[Scuba]

Please tell me this is not another subtle bad-mouthing of the RCC and the papacy.  The longer people focus on this, the more likely they will miss the real deal.  Look around you - the threat if not in Rome - it is in the Middle East.  It is time to wake up to this increasingly likely scenario.

 

The Middle East threatens with physical death but the RCC keeps people from the true God and that death is eternal.

[Robert]

The true meaning is not that Jesus was born without sin, but rather, Mary was born without sin. This is why you will soon see Mary having a position in the Godhead and deserving worship.

 

Right...Mary's mother's womb (they say) was cleansed of what they term "original sin" (meaning original guilt).  Therefore Mary was born as Adam before the fall (sinless)

[Robert]

Right...Mary's mother's womb (they say) was cleansed of what they term "original sin" (meaning original guilt).  Therefore Mary was born as Adam before the fall (sinless)

Therefore the only humanity that Mary could pass on to Christ, as the Son of Man, was a sinless humanity like Adam's before the fall.  

 

The problem with this heresy is that Christ didn't come to save humanity before the fall, but rather after the fall.  If Christ assumed our humanity before the fall His incarnation was meaningless because it didn't do anything for sinners, i.e.,..those under the law.

 

So Roman isn't preaching the everlasting gospel. And many Protestants are preaching a mere hybrid of what Roman teaches.  Even within the ranks of Adventism this vicarious gospel is being preached. 

 

Then you have some Traditional Adventist that teach the post-fall nature of Christ, but these emphasize that Christ took our nature so that we can keep the law.  Christ never assumed our fall humanity so we could mimic Him and thus win salvation.  

 

Christ took our fallen humanity in order to legally establish the gospel, that is, the frame work of justification by faith.  Only then does Christ become our example.

[Robert]

You see to Roman if Christ took our nature then He is guilty of original sin.

 

 Nowhere does the Bible make one guilty of sin because of Adam.  Yes, we stand condemned in Adam because we share His fallen life, but we are not guilty of Adam's sin.  Guilt always involves volition.....

[Samie]

 

...

 

The Bible teaches that guilt can't be transferred legally under law.  The law demands that the sinner must die, not the sinless.

 

...

 

 

That is why on the cross Jesus ATTACHED humanity - Jews & Gentiles - to Himself making humanity His Body, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, Humanity His Body (Eph 2:11-19; Col 1:18).

 

When the Head died, His Body died (2 Cor 5:14,15; Heb 2:9). And by that death, all sins - past, present, future - were all forgiven and paid for (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5).  When the Head resurrected, the Body was resurrected TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6). Sins currently committed, having been forgiven on the cross, are NOT imputed against us anymore (2 Cor 5:18, 19), because Christ was resurrected for our JUSTIFICATION (Rom 4:25). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17). But the act of sinning is proof that the person had not yet overcome the evil of sinning (Rom 12:21). And only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) where our names were written from the foundation of the world (Matt 18:3; 19:14; Rev 21:27; 17:8), all because of God's grace given us in Christ BEFORE the world began (2 Tim 1:9).

 

When Jesus comes again, He will reward every man according to what he has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Those whose names remain in the book of life will inherit life eternal and ushered into the heavenly courts (Rom 2:5-11; Rev 21:27).

 

I think that's the true gospel (Mark 1:14, 15; Rom 1:16; Gal 1:6-9), in a nutshell.

 

Any objection will be addressed using Scriptures.

[Robert]

That is why on the cross Jesus ATTACHED humanity - Jews & Gentiles - to Himself making humanity His Body...

 

 

Actually He took our fallen humanity, under the law,  into Himself at the incarnation.  That wouldn't be possible if Mary's humanity was preserved from "original sin".  Again, Roman teaches that original sin = original guilt and this is definitely not the case. 

 

Why?

 

Because to legally be charged with sin we must know the law.  As Paul states, "where there is no law neither is there any sin".  This doesn't mean we aren't sinners because we are.  We are just not held accountable for transgression, which is deliberate sin,  until God's law is revealed to us.  This cannot happen until we reach the age of accountability. We must remember that guilt always involves volition.  Therefore infants can't be guilty of sin by birth even though technically they are sinners.  

[Samie]

 

 

Actually He took our fallen humanity, under the law,  into Himself at the incarnation.  That wouldn't be possible if Mary's humanity was preserved from "original sin".  Again, Roman teaches that original sin = original guilt and this is definitely not the case. 

 

Why?

 

Because to legally be charged with sin we must know the law.  As Paul states, "where there is no law neither is there any sin".  This doesn't mean we aren't sinners because we are.  We are just not held accountable for transgression, which is deliberate sin,  until God's law is revealed to us.  This cannot happen until we reach the age of accountability. We must remember that guilt always involves volition.  Therefore infants can't be guilty of sin by birth even though technically they are sinners.  

 

So, do you believe that all sins were forgiven when Jesus died on the cross, and that God remembers our sins no more? If your answer is No, please explain why, in view of these verses:

 

NAS Colossians 2:

13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

NAS Hebrews 10:

16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them," He then says, 

17 "And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

 

But if your answer is Yes, then please explain why you said God will still hold us accountable for sins committed when all sins had been forgiven and God remembers our sins no more.

[Robert]

So, do you believe that all sins were forgiven when Jesus died on the cross, and that God remembers our sins no more? 

 

 

Christ answered the law in both His doing and dying.  In Him I am have a new creation that stands perfect before God and His law.  That redemption happened before I was born.  When I accepted the gospel I accepted my death to the law in the humanity of Christ.  Therefore I  have been delivered from under law.  Hence the law can't touch me because as far as the law is concerned my old Adamic life died in Christ. 

 

As a believer I have placed my faith in the truth as it is in Christ.  As I rest in His finished work He is working in me to bring about a change.  That change is towards holy living. This growth doesn't prove my righteousness, but my faith.  

 

When I sin now I am not sinning against the law; instead I am putting a knife in Christ because it was my sins, your sins, that placed Christ on that cross.  So when I sin I confess it, not to win heaven because I already have it by faith.  Instead I acknowledge my sins because I need Christ to represent perfect in Himself.  If I refuse to confess my sins then I don't Christ's righteousness!  The moment I no longer need His righteousness I apostatize and come back under the law permanently.

[Robert]

In Him I am have a new creation that stands perfect before God and His law.  

 

 

That should read:  In Him I have a new creation that stands perfect before God and His law.  

[Samie]

... When I accepted the gospel I accepted my death to the law in the humanity of Christ.  Therefore I  have been delivered from under law. ..

 How about those who have not accepted the gospel and died at the age of reason? Were they not delivered from under the law as you were?

[Robert]

 How about those who have not accepted the gospel and died at the age of reason? Were they not delivered from under the law as you were?

 

Those who have been enlightened at the age of reason, be it through the written word or nature (see Roman 1:19,20), and have rejected this light will be judged by the law because they willfully remained under law.

 

Since the law of God claims "there is none righteous, no, not even one" the unbeliever will have to take the justice of the law upon himself.  The justice of the law is the 2nd death or God abandonment.

 

That's my understanding.

[Robert]

Those who have been enlightened at the age of reason, be it through the written word or nature (see Roman 1:19,20), and have rejected this light will be judged by the law because they willfully remained under law.

 

Since the law of God claims "there is none righteous, no, not even one" the unbeliever will have to take the justice of the law upon himself.  The justice of the law is the 2nd death or God abandonment.

 

That's my understanding.

 

 

BTW, everyone who perishes does so because of their self-righteous attitude.  Only sinners need Christ.  

 

"Many give a bare assent to truth when they are not sanctified through the truth. They do not in Spirit represent Christ. They are surface workers, and delude themselves with the idea that they are christians. So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation." 1888, p. 796.

[Robert]

"The moment I no longer need His righteousness I apostatize and come back under the law permanently."

 

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away (apostatize), it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

Heb 10:6 For if we go on sinning willfully (continue in unbelief) after receiving the knowledge of the truth (context: Salvation in Christ - see verse 10), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant (Christ's death) by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

[Samie]

Would you please directly address my question? 

 

Again, how about those who have not accepted the gospel and died at the age of reason? Were they not delivered from under the law as you were?

 

I have no intention of driving you into a corner; I just want to know your position on this issue. Thanks in advance for your direct response.

[LifeHiscost]

Those who have been enlightened at the age of reason, be it through the written word or nature (see Roman 1:19,20), and have rejected this light will be judged by the law because they willfully remained under law.

 

…13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,…Rom 2

 

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."....Revelation 14

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!