The true gospel must legally fulfill God's law....

[Robert]

Would you please directly address my question? 

 

Again, how about those who have not accepted the gospel and died at the age of reason? Were they not delivered from under the law as you were?

 

I have no intention of driving you into a corner; I just want to know your position on this issue. Thanks in advance for your direct response.

 

 

My understanding based on NT text, especially Romans 5:18, is that all men are born saved by grace (see Eph 2:4-6)....Faith can only be exercised when one matures. Then salvation is received through faith (see Eph 2:8). The law then reveals one's condition and if rejected the unbeliever stands under condemnation.  I say this based on John 3:18

 

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only."

 

So until a mature individual accepts the gospel he remains under law.  If he dies while under law he will resurrected to face the 2nd death, the curse of the law.

[Robert]

…13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 

 

 

Be careful with Romans chapter 2.  Paul is not saying we are justified by being a "doer of the law".  You need to back up to Romans 2:12 "all who sin under the law will be judged by the law"....  In order to gain heaven by law you must be perfect, i.e., a doer of the law, not just a hearer. Otherwise the law will judge you harishly for any transgression.  That is because the law is not in the business of forgiveness.  It demands results and any failures are condemned.  Hence "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight."

[LifeHiscost]

Be careful with Romans chapter 2.  Paul is not saying we are justified by being a "doer of the law".  You need to back up to Romans 2:12 "all who sin under the law will be judged by the law"....  In order to gain heaven by law you must be perfect, i.e., a doer of the law, not just a hearer. Otherwise the law will judge you harishly for any transgression.  That is because the law is not in the business of forgiveness.  It demands results and any failures are condemned.  Hence "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight."

To be judged by the law is not a judgement of death to the believer who accepts Jesus as Savior since it is the record of Jesus perfect keeping of the law that is credited to the account of the believing suppliant. Thus the reason for king David being able to say;

 

… 97O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. 98Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine.…Psalms 119

 

…15Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not destroy his resting place; 16For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity. 17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;…Proverbs 24

 

Our ultimate eternal destination has more to do with whether we aspire to be like Christ or we choose to let ourselves succumb to the enticements of the god of this world.

 

…8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us....1 John 1

 

…3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.…

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  

[Samie]

My understanding based on NT text, especially Romans 5:18, is that all men are born saved by grace (see Eph 2:4-6)

. . .

So until a mature individual accepts the gospel he remains under law.

 

I want to know your understanding of how it is to be born saved by grace and yet under the law.

 

My understanding is that, by God's grace given us in Christ before the world began, we were all attached to the Body of Christ on the cross and therefore members of the family of God, with our names in the book of life, the registry of the citizens of heaven. Unless blotted out from the book of life when we die because we did not overcome the evil of sinning while alive, we all are heaven-bound.

 

That, to me, is the gospel, pure and simple.

[Robert]

To be judged by the law is not a judgement of death to the believer who accepts Jesus as Savior since it is the record of Jesus perfect keeping of the law that is credited to the account of the believing suppliant. 

 

If you are not under the law then the law cannot touch you....It cannot judge you.

[Robert]

I want to know your understanding of how it is to be born saved by grace and yet under the law.

 

I didn't state we are born under law.  I said because of the gospel mankind is born under grace, but when he matures and rejects his need of Christ then he comes under law.

[Robert]

I want to know your understanding of how it is to be born saved by grace and yet under the law.

 

My understanding is that, by God's grace given us in Christ before the world began, we were all attached to the Body of Christ on the cross and therefore members of the family of God, with our names in the book of life, the registry of the citizens of heaven. 

 

 

When you say "we" do you mean the whole human race or just the believer?

 

 

 

Unless blotted out from the book of life when we die because we did not overcome the evil of sinning while alive, we all are heaven-bound.

 

That sounds like we are under law to make it to heaven.

[Samie]

I didn't state we are born under law.  I said because of the gospel mankind is born under grace, but when he matures and rejects his need of Christ then he comes under law.

So mankind is born under grace and will remain under grace UNTIL one rejects Christ. It appears that there is no need of preaching Christ to those who don't know Him yet, otherwise when they reject Him they come under the law, whereas before the preaching they were under grace.

 

Could you please elucidate?

[Samie]

When you say "we" do you mean the whole human race or just the believer?

 

Yes, all mankind - those descended purely from Adam & Eve.

 

That sounds like we are under law to make it to heaven.

Not quite. Because God's grace had been given us in Christ before the world began. We live under grace. Not under the law.

 

Because of God's grace, our names were already written in the book of life; that makes us all heaven-bound. By God's grace. Not under the law. Those who refuse to overcome evil with good while alive deliberately decided to be under the law; they are the ones to be blotted out from the book of life when they die.

[phkrause]

Yes, all mankind - those descended purely from Adam & Eve.

Who else could we be descended from?????

[LifeHiscost]

If you are not under the law then the law cannot touch you....It cannot judge you.

…9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."…Romans 14

 

And what is it that you perceive is the determining judgment factor prompting all to bow and give praise to God?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[joeb]

I don't know that I agree with the idea that the Papacy kills people eternally while something like death from ISIS is only temporary. 

 

Here's why....  The Papacy cannot force anyone to not follow their conscience, and even more importantly, they cannot stop the Holy Spirit from teaching anyone what is true about God.  Yes, the Papacy can influence, threaten, etc... but they cannot make anyone choose to not follow God.  To know that this is true look at the martyrs who chose to be burned at the stake before they chose to believe, and follow, a lie.  Even the devil cannot do that.  The only person who make that decision is the individual himself.  God is going to make sure that everyone understands the issues at stake here, and only by not following what they know to be true can anyone be lost. 

 

I'd say that family is/can_be a greater influence on choices than any other.  I know people, adults, who do what they cannot help but know is wrong just because they are afraid to cross one of their parents, or so conditioned to mindlessly following what their parent says, that they yeild up control of their own consciences to their parent. 

[joeb]

About the idea that Robert puts forth in the opening of this thread....   l agree that God must follow His own legal standard in  the plan of salvation.  Everything He does must do that.  Why?  Take a look at what He is accused of by the devil.  His character is under attack so everything He does must be just or the devil could rightly point out His legal problems. 

 

That I agree with.  I do not agree with what Robert posits as the answer.  Study, for yourselves, what Ellen White calls the law of inheritance.  In the Hebrew of the OT it is known as ga'al.  It is the legal framework, put forth by God, that the plan of salvation is based upon.  In it the closest relative of someone who has lost his/her inheritance, for any reason, can pay their debt and restore to them what is legally theirs.  If you do a very careful word study using a tool such as Strong's Concordance on redeem, Redeemer, redeemed, etc... you will find that it is all based upon this concept. 

 

I spent months studying this from both the Bible and SOP and the evidence for this is overwhelming.  There are literally hundreds of texts, and hundreds of SOP quotations, in support of this.  Nothing need be taken out of context or even come close to being twisted in order to understand this.  It's a fascinating study and I would recommend that you do it. 

 

Understand why Robert is wrong.  Don't take my word for.  Study this subject closely for yourself for truth and error start out nearly indistinguable but when you reach their logical ends they are miles apart. 

[Robert]

…9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."…Romans 14

 

And what is it that you perceive is the determining judgment factor prompting all to bow and give praise to God?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Judgment seat of God is not the same as being judged by the law

[Samie]

Who else could we be descended from?????

In, the Old Testament, the phrase "sons of God" is from the Hebrew  ~yhil{a/h'( ynEÜB. (Bünê hä|´élöhîm).

 

This phrase was used when God asked Job:

 

NKJ Job 38:4-7   4 " Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.  5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?  6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,  7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

There were already "sons of God" who shouted for joy before Adam was created! They could not possibly be descended from Adam & Eve. Who could they be? Let's consult the Scriptures:

 

NKJ Job 1:6-8   6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.  7 And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."  8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job . . ?

 

The "sons of God" were before the Lord, yet Job who was a perfect and upright man, was not among them. Instead, it was Satan who was with them. The logical conclusion could only be, that these "sons of God" are angels. They were the ones who shouted for joy when God created this earth. There was a schedule where they were to present themselves before the Lord, and because Satan was also an angel, it is no wonder why he was with them.

 

Here comes what some of these "sons of God" did.

 

NKJ Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,  2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

 

These evil angels intermarried with women from the Adamic race and had children with them:

 

NKJ Genesis 6:4   There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.. . .

 

These sons and daughters of evil angels are offspring of demons. There is no plan of redemption for the demons. Their destiny is the lake of fire (Matt 25:41). Their names were not written in the book of life (Rev 17:8). These evil angels did not perish in the Flood and could have intermarried with humans again after the Flood.

 

You may not believe, and it is understandable, but I was born in an island where demons have children with humans. I have first hand information from a retired SDA Pastor, who personally knew a woman who had a child fathered by an evil angel.

[LifeHiscost]

Who else could we be descended from?????

Not sure this fully answers that, but it is highly suspect, no fingers being pointed.

 

…43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…John 8

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

The apostle Paul wrote of a battle which is not against flesh and blood (humans), but against spiritual forces of evil:

 

Ephesians 6:11, 12:

 

ESV Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

 

KJV Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. {flesh...: Gr. blood and flesh} {spiritual...: or, wicked spirits} {high: or, heavenly}

NAS a)Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the b)schemes of the devil. For our (a)struggle is not against (1b)flesh and blood, but c)against the rulers, against the powers, against the (d)world forces of this e)darkness, against the (f)spiritual forces of wickedness in (g)the heavenly places.

NIV Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

NKJ Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

NLT Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil. For we(1 )are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

NRS  Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.  For our(1 )struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

[LifeHiscost]

Judgment seat of God is not the same as being judged by the law

If His Law does not define how our Father determines the conduct by which we, the believers, need to be corrected, in His judgment, then what behavioral criteria do you see holy life is revealed and found either satisfactory or unsatisfactory?

 

4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God^a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did....1John 2

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

If His Law does not define how our Father determines the conduct by which we, the believers, need to be corrected, in His judgment, then what behavioral criteria do you see holy life is revealed and found either satisfactory or unsatisfactory?

 

Are you stating that the law will be used in the judgment as a litmus test to see if we are worthy or not?  

[stinsonmarri]

Anyway, I don't want this to get dragged off the topic.  The topic is the gospel.  There's only one, not many.  Roman and most the Protestants churches, including elements of Adventism, preaches "another gospel".

 

I agree, we should be focusing on why we as Adventist are turning away from being obedient to the Law and the Commandments. You see too many of you think is only 1-10, when the ten in the Bible is to the tenth power. The ten is only used three times and never by YAHWEH ELOHIM or YAHSHUA ELOHIM!  I also want to state when we do not keep YAHWEH HOLY NAME we also break HIS Commands. Let me give some Scriptures to back up what I am saying:

 

Because Abraham listened to MY VOICE and heeded MY Charge, MY Commandments, MY statutes, and MY Torah. Gen 26:5

 

And YAHWEH said to Moses, Come up to ME to the Mountain, and be there. And I will give to you the tablets of stone, and the Law (Torah and Statute-Time Laws), and the Commandments (Commands) which I have written, to teach them. Ex 24:12

 

And when HE finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, HE gave to Moses the two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written by THE FINGER of ELOHE. Ex 31:18

 

But as for you, you stand here by ME, and I will speak to you all the Commandments and the Statutes and the Judgments (Verdict) which you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land which I am giving to them, to possess it. Deut 5:31

 

These are the Testimonies, and the Statutes, and the Judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt, Deut 4:45 

 

And Moses said to THE ELOHIM, Behold, I shall come to the sons of Israel and say to them, THE ELOHE of your fathers has sent me to you; and they will say to me, what is HIS NAME? What shall I say to them? And ELOHE said to Moses, EHYAH ASHER EHYAH (I AM THAT I AM); and HE said, you shall say this to the sons of Israel, EHYAH (I AM) has sent me to you. And ELOHE said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YAHWEH, THE ELOHE of your fathers, THE ELOHE of Abraham, THE ELOHE of Isaac, and THE ELOHE of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is MY NAME FOREVER, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation. Ex 3:13-15

 

Do not misuse MY NAME. I am YAHWEH your ELOHE  and I will punish anyone who misuses MY NAME. Ex 20:7

 

And in all that I have said to you take heed. And make no mention of the name of other mighty ones, let it not be heard from your mouth. Ex 23:13 

 

So, then, you should pray this way, Our FATHER who is in Heaven, Hallowed be YOUR NAME. Mat 6:9

 

Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.—In consequence of continual transgression, the Moral Law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. YAHSHUA gave to Moses religious Precepts which were to govern everyday life. These Statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten Commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of YAHSHUA. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These Commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that Law (Ibid., April 15, 1875)

 

You need to find out about the names you are using and where did they come from? Oh, everyone is using the name god in all religions!!!

 

Happy Sabbath, blessings!

[Robert]

I agree, we should be focusing on why we as Adventist are turning away from being obedient to the Law and the Commandments.

 

 

Outwardly obeying rules is not the gospel.  If one is not resting in Christ's finished work of redemption then one's works are automatically legalistic and proof that one as not entered God's rest.

[Samie]

The gospel is everlasting (Greek aivw,nioj aionios - no beginning nor end).

 

If the gospel being preached started at the cross, then it is not an everlasting one. The cross is but the full manifestation of God's grace given us in Christ before time began.

 

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:

 

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 

 

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

 

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

Scriptures tell of the everlasting gospel being preached just before Christ comes again. See Rev 14:6-12. Did you notice the mention of the beast and his image? Now, correlate that with Jesus words in Matt 24:14-31, where in v15 He mentions the abomination of desolation which is the image of the beast. The Master Teacher then went on to tell His disciples that the setting up of the image of the beast or the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events starting with the great tribulation or time of trouble and culminating in the 2nd Coming.

[Robert]

The gospel is the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man and nothing else.....

[Samie]

There's more to it than that, I think. The gospel we preach must include what the life, death and resurrection of the Savior has done, is doing and will be doing for all of us...

[LifeHiscost]

Are you stating that the law will be used in the judgment as a litmus test to see if we are worthy or not?  

Not whether we are worthy, only if we are included among the saved.

 

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."....Revelation 14

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!