To What Degree?

[cricket]

For which of the following positions in the Adventist church should a college/university degree be required?

• Lower Division Sabbath School Teacher
• Upper Division Sabbath School Teacher
• Sabbath School Superintendant
• Organist/Pianist
• Audio/Visual Technician
• Church Treasurer
• Church Secretary
• Associate Pastor
• Pastor
• Pathfinder Director
• Choir Director
• Deacon
• Deaconess
• Elder
• Church Clerk
• Women's/Men's Ministries Leaders
• Conference Ministerial Director
• Conference Communications Director
• Trust Services Director
• Evangelism Coordinator
• Community Services Director
• Educational Superintendant
• Conference Youth Director
• Conference Vice President for Administration
• Conference Vice President for Finance
• Conference President

Furthermore, to what degree of accredited education must the division, union and world leaders recieve before they are worthy of being our leaders?

[:"brown"] Matthew 7:28-29 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.[/]

[Gregory Matthews]

One cannot make a world-wide standard that applies everywhere, at all times. That is why the SDA Church has an organizaiton that is called the Division. Each Division develops its own standards. To a greater, or lessor, extent, each Union within the Division, and each Conference within the Union develops its standards.

Common sense should prevail. In the NAD, a Conference VP for Finance should have soem formal financial training. Just an example. It just may well be that in every situation, a Conference VP for Finance should have some formal training. But, there may be situations where the amount of formal training, for some positions, could differ from the amount required in other situations. E.G. In developed countries where public charities (such as churches) are required to adhere to laws relating to financial, and tax matters, the formal training would likely differ from other situations in which such laws did not exist.

[darlene]

I believe that a degree needs to be available for people holding the church office of Single Adult Ministries Coordinator. Why? Because this important church office needs someone who knows how to work this people group which now make up 50% of the church membershp. This person needs to know how to feed and nurture the single adult and train those who work with them.

[Dr. Shane]

A degree? Well if they are going to be an accountant, lawyer or health care provider, I understand. Otherwise why not just have a testing or interviewing process? What degree did E.G. White have again?

[Bravus]

A degree, I'm afraid, says almost nothing about someone's fitness for a job - except possibly that they have enough stick-to-itiveness to finish something that takes a few years. I'd say what we should do is a much better job of interviewing, including requiring people to do some of what they'd be doing in the job and really observing them in action. Virtually every church-related job is mostly about people and relationships (hmm, make that every job), and being better at measuring that in interviews and other ways is much better than requiring more and higher degrees, IMO.

(Having said all that, a degree can help someone like an Education Director have some cred when all those s/he is leading are required by the state to have degrees. Same may apply in other fields.)

[aldona]

If it was a requirement to have a degree in order to serve in the positions mentioned, then the only person in our church who would have a job would be the pastor.

We have a small church with only about 60-70 members. Maybe 10% of those have any kind of college or university degree, and none of those degrees are relevant to the positions they hold at church.

Examples: My degree is in medicine, and I serve as pianist and church bulletin editor. My husband's degree is in applied physics, and he serves as organist and Youth Sabbath School teacher. Another guy has a degree in information technology, and he is one of the elders. One lady has a degree in psychology, and acts as church secretary and treasurer. (and there are a few others).

The rest of the folks are just regular working-class people who mostly never went to college.

And what about those parts of the world where the average church member would be lucky to complete elementary school, let alone set foot inside a college? Surely we cannot set one worldwide standard that doesn't take account of different places and circumstances.

aldona

[Beryl]

I agree, Aldona. When Jesus called His disciples, I can only think of one who probably had the equivalent of a degree at that time -- and he wasn't the best example of how a disciple should treat his Master!

The disciples came from a range of backgrounds -- fishermen, "sons of thunder", a zealot, a tax collector for the "enemy", -- Wow! just think of the reaction if this was a report from your Nominating Committee!! But God knew their hearts, and, despite all of their failings, He left the fledgling church in their hands, because He knew that He was still in charge.

God will still lead Nominating Committees -- if they will let Him.

Beryl

[Naomi]

just adding my :2cents:, and not being original. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

One statement which one of my professors said that "stuck" is "We can teach you 10% of what you need to know to function in the real world. The other 90% you'll have to learn when you are in it "

Naomi

[Nicodema]

Experience and talent in the requisite skill set areas are far more important than whether someone spent 4 years of their lives paying someone to teach them what they could learn themselves hands-on in 2.

Just my opinion.

[cricket]

Of the church-positions I've posted, are there any that are not filled by the nomination process?

[Bravus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Experience and talent in the requisite skill set areas are far more important than whether someone spent 4 years of their lives paying someone to teach them what they could learn themselves hands-on in 2.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Gotta call you on this one just a little bit. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As I noted above, I think there are much more important things than qualifications. But I do think that, in a good degree at least, you learn things that you can't learn just by experience. Oh, I know, there are some really bad colleges, professors and programs out there, but any decent degree should be challenging you with different contexts and perspectives, whereas learning in practice tends more to just perpetuate the way things are already done in your field... So my comments above shouldn't be construed as saying degrees are useless, just that there are more important criteria for a job than degrees, and that degrees by themselves won't tell us about those things.

[cricket]

Quote:

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...but any decent degree should be challenging you with different contexts and perspectives, whereas learning in practice tends more to just perpetuate the way things are already done in your field...

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Aha! The catch-22. While in the "field", a student can learn only what the co-workers know; while in the classroom, a student can learn only what the instructors know.

Often I have heard my husband say, "these young people coming in to work with their college degrees think they know everything. It is so frustrating when trying to get them to understand how the real world works. We spend so much of the first year of work getting them to understand that this is not a classroom."

[Gregory Matthews]

Not directed specifically to Bravus:

There are several factors here.

In Industrial Psychology there are so-called "gates." In the construct of a "gate" one is advanced from point A to point B simply be passing through that gate. It is not by any demonstrated quality of behavior, but by some objective outside acomplishment.

Let me illustrate:

I am an ordained SDA minister, who is employed by the Federal hospital (USA) as a hospital chaplain. In order to obtain this position, there were a series of gates that I had to pass through. One of those gates was a specific professional academic degree. A second one was a certification of specific training. And, there were other objective gates. Without those degrees and certificates, I could not have been considered for this position.

Most SDA ministers, and most military chaplains have not passed through the gates that I have passed through, and therefore would not be considered for a position such as I have.

Folks, there are times when, in order to do God's work, one must be recognized for taking certain academic and training programs. That is simply a reality.

One can argue as to whether or not those gates are appropriate. The reality is that they exist. If you want the position, you must meet the standards.

[Dr. Shane]

I am thinking first of the position of a pastor. Should a degree be required? I would think there would be a test that could be made and graded to show if a person has the knowledge to be a pastor. Not only the Biblical knowledge but the human relationship skills, etc. I would also think the interview process could include a sermon presentation, etc. The same could be true of various conference positions.

Obviously some jobs that require state certification such as CPA, lawyers, medical and teachers are going to require a degree.

[Bravus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Aha! The catch-22. While in the "field", a student can learn only what the co-workers know; while in the classroom, a student can learn only what the instructors know.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, sorta... in a *good* classroom they should learn what the instructor knows, plus what those the instructor has read know, plus what the student him/herself reads, plus some of what the other students in the class know...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Often I have heard my husband say, "these young people coming in to work with their college degrees think they know everything. It is so frustrating when trying to get them to understand how the real world works. We spend so much of the first year of work getting them to understand that this is not a classroom."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Two quick points in relation to this:

1. I didn't mean to dismiss the value of practical experience either: college and university instructors ought to have some, and ought to renew it pretty regularly, for a start, and should have a healthy respect for practitioners and a humility in the face of their practical wisdom and knowledge, and they should pass this on to their students.

2. I think sometimes universities and colleges take an unfair rap for the natural know-it-all-ness of youth! They don't think they know it all because they have a degree (although that's how they might phrase it), they think they know it all because they're young!

Oh, and one more...

3. This is sometimes - and I'm definitely not saying this is the case for your hubby, Q - an issue that arises where the practitioners are a little insecure and defensive, and feel the need to cut the high-falutin' graduate down to size by proving that they don't know anything practical... In a really healthy relationship, everyone would recognise that they have something to learn from everyone else, and the new stuff from the degree would be fruitfully melded with the practical wisdom...

And Gregory, I agree that sometimes there are gates. I think that in the church we should minimise these, and focus more on the people: I guess what I'd say is that we should be sure that a degree is *necessary* for a position before we require one, but that even if it is, we should realise that it's *necessary* but not *sufficient*.

[cricket]

3...the problem in my husbands industry is that the "new" stuff comes from the industry--not from the universities.

[Bravus]

Ahhh.... I understand (but see also where I said the profs need to be using their sabbaticals to get back out into industry and 'do it' again to get caught up!)

[cricket]

Right. I agree with the idea, it's a good one. Even so, there are some industries where that just won't work. With some industries, it is necessary to be "hands on" all of the time. Even as little as 6 months away from the job can mean 6 months or more of catching up on advances in technology.

Now, if someone will tilt that screen just a little, I might be able to make a tangential slide and get back on topic.

(Sorry I brought in the topic of my husband's job...)

[Bravus]

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No worries at all - s'fun! Hope the original question has been/is being explored satisfactorily... with a side order of 'Education, huh? What is it good for?' <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Robert]

[A bit late]

It doesn’t matter how much Greek and Hebrew a Pastor has under his belt, if he isn’t preaching the gospel it’s a total waste of time.

Remember this quote? “Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.”

By the way…I know a little Greek and a little Hebrew. The Greek guy runs a sea-food market and the Hebrew a clothing store….Ha, ha, ha….

[Bravus]

LOL - love it!

[Neil D]

Quote:

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For which of the following positions in the Adventist church should a college/university degree be required?

---

[Mexicasn accent-on] Degree?? We no need som steenkin' degree!

[/accent]

[Dr. Shane]

Let's refrain from the racist remarks, please.

[Bravus]

That one's a quote from the movie 'Blazing Saddles' ('We don' need no steenkin' badges!'), and is not meant as a comment on Mexicans' education or desire for education, I'm sure.

I recognise the source of your concern, and the potential for misunderstanding, Shane... hope clarifying this helps to also address that concern.

[Neil D]

I thought it sounded ok.....

No racial intent intended....