Can one be an adventist and NOT believe that Ellen White was a prophet

[Chief of Sinners]

Can one be a Seventh Day Adventist and yet repudiate the claims to Ellen White's to her prophetic powers? 

Are there other Seventh Day Adventists facing this spiritial dilemma? How do they reconcile this dilemma? 

 

[Bravus]

It's a great and interesting question. I don't have a strong view, but I'll be interested to see the discussion.

[Gregory Matthews]

An interesting, important and valid  question.  The short answer is that one can be a Seventh-day Adventist and not believe that EGW as a prophet of God. However, there are those who will immediately disagree with my statement.  The problem arises due to misunderstandings of the so-called 28 Fundamental Beliefs and the so-called Baptismal Vow.

My position, as I have practiced it, is that the Baptismal Vows define the minimal requirement for entry into the SDA Church.  In regard to this matter, the historic Vow, as it continues to exist today, says:  "Do you believe [I believe] the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?"  This statement requires that one believe that there is a valid "gift of prophecy" that  will exist in the church of God at some unstated point in end time.   It does NOT require a belief in any specific person.  E.G.  It does not require a belief in EGW as a manifestation of that gift.  This set of Baptismal Vows consists of some 13 statement of belief.

In recent times an alternative see of Baptismal Vows has  been produced that has been reduced to three (3) simple statements.  This set of three does not contain any explicit statement on this issue, as is contained in the 13.  My personal position is that this alternative set does not require a belief in EGW as a prophet.  However, others challenge me on this and believe that it does contain an implied statement of a required belief in EGW as a prophet.  My response to that is that  if this is so, it is only the alternative set that requires it and the so-called thirteen does not.

In any case, the problem arises due to the so-called 28 Fundamental beliefs.  This is a statement which is longer than that of the Baptismal Vow and it says, in part:  "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy.  This gift . . . was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. . . . the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." If this fundamental belief is a standard by which membership in the SDA Church should be measured, then a specific belief in her is required.  But, tyhta is not how I understand the so-called 28.  [NOTE: In its original formulation it was 27 fundamental beliefs.   An additional one was added later to make 28.]

The editors of the 27, which was published in 1988, said:  "We have not written this book to serve as a creed, a statement of beliefs set in theological concrete."  IOW, it was not published, in my thinking in an attempt to define the standard by which one should be determined to be a member of the SDA denomination.  Rather, it was published to put into print the most commonly held beliefs of SDA members.  Certainly, most SDA members believe that EGW was a prophet, even if they disagree on exactly what that means.  

So, in brief, the above is my personal understanding:  The belief in EGW As a prophet is not required to be a member of the SDA denomination.  Further, there is no clearly defined belief as to what it means to say that she is a prophet.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In the current numbering of the s-called 28, the one on The Gift of Prophecy is number 18 (It was number 17, in the 27).  There is a proposal to be voted at the upcoming General Conference to change # 18 to read:  "The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy.  This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.  They also make clear that the Bible is the standard  by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

This is an important change in that it removes an extended sentence that caused some people to believe that the writings of EGW were either equal to those of the Bible or that her writings in fact were superior to the Bible.   IOW this proposed changes strengthens the idea that the Bible is the ultimate judge of all, to include the writings of EGW.

 

NOTE:   When I quoted the above proposed change, I did not include the Biblical texts that are also included in the proposed change.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is also a proposed Resolution on the Bible that is up for a vote at the upcoming General Conference.  It is a document that extends for some 42 lines of written material, including spaces between paragraphs.  An important statement is made in lines 36 - 38:  "We also urge pastors and preachers to base their sermons on the biblical text and to make of every sermon an occasion to uphold the authority and relevance of God's word."

 

[Stan]

What would need prophet defined better.

 

Some of the prophets of old were rascals at times.  Yet they were still prophets.

[JoeMo]

I believe that EGW had the NT gift of prophecy.  I also believe that she did NOT have the gift of prophetic interpretation; and that she (maybe at the encouragement of some of the other pioneers) added some color to her visions by interpreting them in light of the culture of the times and of her peers.  For example, she interpreted the main issue of her visions of the last days as "The Sabbath"; when it may have actually been more general than that - like "who do you worship - the God of heaven or the god of this world?"  I know that some of you will respond that the Sabbath is a central issue of who we worship; and that's fine - it is also my personal belief for myself.  But I don't see Sabbath vs. Sunday or the papacy as the antichrist as EGW sees it. IMO she was mistaken or misguided in how she interpreted her vision.

So I guess what I'm saying is that EGW was indeed inspred by God and exercised the gift of prophecy.  Was she infallible in her interpretation? No.  Are her writings even close to being equal to scripture?  Absolutely not.  But hey - that's just my jaded opinion.  Are some of her writings right on? YES!  But I must go with the Bible first.  Where her writings are not in accordance with my understanding of scripture, I discard them. It's kinda like eating chicken - I eat the meat and discard the bones.

[8thdaypriest]

In my experience - NO - one cannot be an SDA, if one does NOT believe that Mrs. White was an inspired prophet of God.  WHY? 

Because folks will find out about your disbelief, and they will begin to shun you - because they want you to leave.  

Of course, you can always simply keep your doubts to yourself, rather than make any waves.  But that means one cannot question any doctrine which Mrs. White endorsed.

Which means one cannot question some of the MOST fundamental doctrines - like the doctrine of the Trinity, or the doctrine of an Investigative Judgment that began in Heaven in 1844, wherein Jesus will examine the records to decide just which persons He will save?   

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, I cannot challenge your experience.  You went through it and I did not.

However, I can challenge your understanding of denominational policy, even if people do not always practice it.

 

Here in the U.S. the majority of SDA Congregations would likely, in my thinking, be willing to accept as a member a person who did not accept EGW as a prophet.

 

However,. with the rise of fundamentalism, there  is a growing voice in the SDA Church who would want to change that and make a belief in her as a prophet a requirement for membership.  I acknowledge that.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Stan, I think, would like for me to clarify what I meant when I suggested that some might need clarification as to what is meant by accepting EGW as a prophet.

I will suggest that the issue falls into two areas, and that many of us are contaminated by our thoughts as to what is generally meant in society today when we call someone a prophet.

All top often we consider a prophet to be one like Jean Dixon, who tells people what will happen in the future.

The Biblical role of a prophet was not primarily telling people what would happen in the Future, although that was a part.  It was first of all to communicate God's message to humans.  that message, even if in part told of the future, had a primary basis of spiritual reform and spiritual nuture. 

Ellen White's work was largely an administrative work in guiding a developing denomination in the direction that God wanted it to go.  A second major part of her work was that of spiritual development, speaking of the love and salvation of God, encouraging people to follow the leading of the Holy spirit.  A minor part was in reproff--reprof mainly of leadership.  another minor role was that of talking about the future.

All to many who reject EGW believe that if they accepted her as a prophet they would need to place her writings above those of the Bible.  This is a false  concept.

 

 

[lazarus]

Can one be a Seventh Day Adventist and yet repudiate the claims to Ellen White's to her prophetic powers? 

Are there other Seventh Day Adventists facing this spiritial dilemma? How do they reconcile this dilemma? 

 

Short answer: Yes. This is nothing to do with theology it just a statement of fact.

I have met many SDA's over the years who are at the very least skeptical about the gifts of EGW but still are active office holders in the church. I do note that you use the word repudiate which is a lot stronger than being skeptical. I have known/know pastors who completely reject the prophetic ministry of EGW but of course do not preach or  teach that. They hold their positions since many in their congregations are indifferent or are also skeptical of her work and ministry. There has always been an element, even in EGW's day who did not accept her work. IMHO the SDA church seems to have edited itself to where it's more controversial beliefs are less central to the everyday message and practice of the church. We have underestimated the impact of Walter Rae and Desmond Ford. We assume that those Pastors and leaders who remained in the church after Glacier View and "all that" embraced the church's teachings.

Incidentally, there are many lay people and leaders who do not accept the IJ. They lead our churches and run our institutions. They have done this for years. They are considered to be SDA's in regular standing.

[Gregory Matthews]

Lazarus is on target.

 

[joeb]

In my experience - NO - one cannot be an SDA, if one does NOT believe that Mrs. White was an inspired prophet of God.  WHY? 

Because folks will find out about your disbelief, and they will begin to shun you - because they want you to leave.  

Of course, you can always simply keep your doubts to yourself, rather than make any waves.  But that means one cannot question any doctrine which Mrs. White endorsed.

Which means one cannot question some of the MOST fundamental doctrines - like the doctrine of the Trinity, or the doctrine of an Investigative Judgment that began in Heaven in 1844, wherein Jesus will examine the records to decide just which persons He will save?   

 

 

If someone shunned you for your stand on Ellen White, shame on them.  I disagree with some  of your prophetic beliefs and your stand on Ellen Whites inspiration, but I would never shun you for it.  I'd "argue" with you about it, but it would never go beyond that.  But then I "argue" with a lot of people.  It's just me being always ready to give a reason for what I believe in. 

[whbae]

What kind of question is this?  Of course, not.  When one joins a fraternity club or any kind organization one swears to abide by the rules set up by that organization.  There is no difference for any church.  If you want to join the  church whether be catholic, methodist, or SDA, you must believe and abide by the doctrine set up by the church.  You may call yourself anything but you may not join that organization.  SDA church believes that Ellen White was a prophet, a lesser light.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Whbae:   The beliefs required to be a SDA are listed in the  Baptismal vows.  They are listed in the Church Manual and they were decided by a vote of the General Conference.  Those are the official rules of the organization.  They are not rules that you have decided.

 

Further, you appear to clearly misunderstand the SDA Church.  It is not an organization that is united in doctrine.  Rather , as denominational officials have described it, the SDA Church today consists of five (5) distinct groups of people--people who have differing beliefs and life styles.

The beliefs required to join the SDA Church are actually minimal.

 

 

[Bravus]

It's probably worth noting a couple of things:

1. Belief that there is a gift of prophecy and that Ellen White was one prophet does not mean she is the only prophet or that there will never be another*.

2. The gift of prophecy does not confer inerrancy in all things: a prophet is not what the Pope claims to be. How many times, in the Bible, did God correct prophets? Many.

* The fact that most of those who set themselves up as modern-day prophets are crazy notwithstanding.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Bravus

[whbae]

Nonsense!

[8thdaypriest]

If someone shunned you for your stand on Ellen White, shame on them.  I disagree with some  of your prophetic beliefs and your stand on Ellen Whites inspiration, but I would never shun you for it.  I'd "argue" with you about it, but it would never go beyond that.  But then I "argue" with a lot of people.  It's just me being always ready to give a reason for what I believe in. 

​Thanks joeb. 

In 1997, when I decided that I believed only in God our Father, and His literal son - Jesus the Christ, I actually had some folks turn around with their backs to me, rather than say hello at church.  I was told that I could not teach Sabbath School any longer.  I was told that I was welcome to attend, but I was to remain quiet and stop asking controversial unsettling questions.  I LEFT.  Haven't been back since.  This was a fairly large congregation - not a little country church.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, Rachel, it sounds tome like your case is a bit more involved.

 

 

There is a time and place for everything.  In the Church that I attend, the adult Sabbath School classes will take about anything, but some more than others.  People are different and they have different spiritual needs.

 

 

[Sojourner]

I agree with what Joe said above, my own thoughts are that Ellen White exersized the Gift of Prophecy as described in the New Testament on a number of occasion along with others in the same time period. I feel that all Spiritual Gifts are for the church today when they are needed to be called upon. I also note that the reason the SDA does not have a creed is because it remains open to change if G-d calls us to it, if that happens through current members exersizing the same gift of prophecy - so be it.

[LifeHiscost]

One only needs the Word to identify the anti-christ of the last days. There is only one theology which fits this idea.

 

'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law....Daniel 7

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

Some of the prophets of old were rascals at times.  Yet they were still prophets.

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Bravus]

Nonsense!

​Well, that's a detailed and cogent argument...

[Gregory Matthews]

Bravus:  The  one word response that you quoted from Whbae was simply a cogent one word evaluation of his knowledge, understanding and position.  He should be commended for simplifying it to one word.  MOst os us writing her would put such into many words.  But, he got it right with one word.  

 

 

 

   

[D_Bishop]

Ellen White was either a prophet or a false prophet.  I believe she was a prophet.  Personally I would not join a church that follows the writings of someone I consider a false prophet.