The "cleansing" OF THE SANCTUARY

[8thdaypriest]

I noticed that the word translated "cleansed" in Dan 8:14 is NOT the word usually translated "cleansed". 

Daniel 8:14 “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (KJV)  "cleansed" - 06663 צָדַק tsadaq {tsaw-dak'}

Daniel 8:14 is the ONLY place in Scripture where the word tsadaq is translated as “cleansed”.  Strong's gives the definition as “justified’ or “vindicated” or “set right”.  

So - After the 2300 evening/mornings HEAVEN (the true Tabernacle) would be vindicated.  

 A different word is used when the priest makes atonement for a person, so he could be cleansed. 

Numbers 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." KJV

"cleansed" =  03722 rp;K' kaphar {kaw-far'} Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation,

It really puts a whole new slant on Daniel 8:14.    At what point, or at what event, is (or was) heaven vindicated ? 

OR If the word means "set right" then is this pointing to the House of God being restored to it's rightful state?

Also the word "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14 is in the PERFECT tense, meaning the "cleansing" is complete at the end of 2300 evening/mornings. 

[Gregory Matthews]

A little more complicated:  the basic Hebrew word occurs in the "niphal" form of the verb only once in the  Old Testament and that once is only in Daniel 8:14.  You are correct that in the root meaning the word translated to vindicated, justified or to be made right.  but, the question now is whether or not the niphal form indicates a more specialized meaning and whether or not that meaning is best translated as "cleansed?"

Associated with this is the question as to where the translators of the KJV got the meaning as "cleansed?   That is not definitively known.  Some suggest that the translators of the KJV followed the reading of the Greek LXX, or the Latin Vulgate both of which translate as "cleansed."  Regardless, that does not answer the question as to where the LXX and the Vulgate derived that translation.

 

Rachel, you have opened up a question for which we can not positively say we have an answer.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel tells us that the Hebrew word is in the Perfect tense.

Niphal Hebrew words may be either Perfect or Imperfect in their tense.  I am not convinced that Rachel is correct in telling us that it is in the Perfect tense, but she may be correct.  I simply am not certain.

However, Biblical Hebrew, as I understand it, does not always use the Perfect and Imperfect tenses in a rigid manner.  IOW, as I understand it, sometimes the perfect tense is used for events that are in the future and have not yet happened, and the imperfect tense is used, sometimes for completed events in the past.  In any case, we should be careful about being rigid in our appeal to what we think are rules of grammer.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following URL, on pages 8 & 9 discuss the Hebrew word.  It may be of value.  NOTE:  I have not based my comments on this document:

http://personal.southern.edu/~gking/SanctuaryandItsCleansing.pdf

Edited June 26, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[LifeHiscost]

Rachel tells us that the Hebrew word is in the Perfect tense.

Niphal Hebrew words may be either Perfect or Imperfect in their tense.  I am not convinced that Rachel is correct in telling us that it is in the Perfect tense, but she may be correct.  I simply am not certain.

However, Biblical Hebrew, as I understand it, does not always use the Perfect and Imperfect tenses in a rigid manner.  IOW, as I understand it, sometimes the perfect tense is used for events that are in the future and have not yet happened, and the imperfect tense is used, sometimes for completed events in the past.  In any case, we should be careful about being rigid in our appeal to what we think are rules of grammer.

 

One of the biggest boons to individual faith in the Christian faith is to take all His pronouncements as completed, present tense.

  ¹² Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life.^{....1 John 5}

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, here is the problem with your statement that all pronouncements should be taken as in the completed, perfect tense: 

1) If your statement were true, non one who was not alive at the time that 1st John 5 was written could have life in  god's son.  The completed action of the Hebrew, taken literally, ends that application.  In the Hebrew language the various tenses may not have the exact same meaning as they do in English and one should be careful about attempting to do so.

2) Hebrew words may (?) have spelling variations that indicate whether they are in the Perfect or the Imperfect tense.  When they do, one should be governed by the spelling.

[8thdaypriest]

I have been struggling and searching to understand just what the "judgment" means, and the "Day of Atonement" - and also to understand the TIMING. 

At the conclusion of the "court" scene of Daniel 7:9-10, we read that "dominion" is taken FROM Satan (expressed through the Beast's successive "heads") and "dominion" is given TO Jesus.  v. 14:  "THEN to Him was given dominion and glory (honor) and a kingdom." 

Most interesting is that the "saints" have been persecuted for "time, times, and a part" (42 months, 1260 days) leading up to this "court" scene, but when the judgment of the court comes down, "the TIME CAME for the saints to possess the kingdom".   It appears immediate. 

For 3.5 years "the saints" are persecuted by the Little Horn.  THEN the "court" sits, and opens the books.  THEN Christ receives the dominion  THEN (v. 27) "the kingdom and dominion . .. shall be given to the saints."  

In Revelation Cpt Eleven, "The 7th Trumpet sounds, and "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ."  THIS PARALLELS DANIEL and the conclusion of the "court" scene.  The time has come to "reward Your servants, the prophets and the saints".  The time has also come to "destroy those who destroy the earth". 

Revelation 14:7  "Fear God and give glory (honor) to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come."    Revelation seems to be all about the "judgment" - the "court" scene.  It deals with events on earth, leading up to it.  It deals with who the last witnesses will be.   It deals with the destruction of Satan's dominion - after the judgment comes down. 

[8thdaypriest]

What is very clear in Daniel 7, and in Revelation, is that this judgment is ABOUT JESUS.   The "saints" receive honor and share the kingdom BECAUSE they belong to Jesus.  Jesus calls them "mine".   

Jesus HAD the dominion, and also the position of greatest honor as God's only begotten Son.  THEN He descended slowly - to the lowest point of SHAME.   At the "judgment" scene of Daniel 7, this SHAME is finally - completely - reversed. 

I've been reading a couple of books on the concept of honor and shame, as seen thru the Scriptures.  It is really opening my understanding.  The word most often translated as "glory", also means "honor".  

So - what is the MEANING of the "sin offering" and the "burnt offering" - always offered one after the other, by the petitioner?  What did those offerings DO, in relation to covenant?  It's all about covenant.  Those who inherit the kingdom - with Christ, are those who have remained in covenant with Him.  

The "sin offering" SAID, I have broken covenant, but I want to be forgiven so that I can once again be in covenant with YOU Lord.  The "burnt offering" was a renewal of the "blood covenant"   

It's not as if all the sins of every person are not known to the LORD.  Sins did not have to be recorded in the Tabernacle.  What were recorded in the Tabernacle were the NAMES of those in Covenant.  When one sinned, one broke covenant, and was therefore no longer "in" Covenant.  If one sinned, and did NOT humble his heart or repent - then HIS NAME would be blotted out of the Temple record.  This happened to Jehoachin.  

The LORD was always saying, "I will remember my covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."  WHY?  Because Israel had sinned, and was therefore no longer in Covenant.  They needed to be brought back into Covenant.  

[Gregory Matthews]

The focus of the judgment is on God, not the Saints. Rachel is on the right track.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus HAD the dominion, and also the position of greatest honor as God's only begotten Son.  THEN He descended slowly - to the lowest point of SHAME.   At the "judgment" scene of Daniel 7, this SHAME is finally - completely - reversed. 

The "court" of Heaven sits, and Jesus is "cleansed" of SHAME.  He is given HONOR, and "dominion".   The SHAME is transferred from Christ to Satan. 

When an Israelite sinned, that action BROUGHT DISHONOR to the LORD.  (It could also bring dishonor upon His entire family, clan, tribe, or the whole nation.)

Over and over, the LORD does things "for His name" (His honor). 

Ezekiel 36:23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned (dishonored) among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight." (NAU)

The LORD was dishonored BY the actions of "His people".  Their sins heaped SHAME upon the name of their God.  Hence "Joshua" is in "filthy garments".  At this "judgment" the filthy garments are removed (the SHAME is removed) and He is given garments of HONOR. 

I believe the "saints" who are awarded "dominion" under Christ - at the Daniel 7 judgment, are REDEEMED ISRAEL (spiritual Israel) - those who remain in Covenant.  These will "reign with Him on the earth". 

Where I disagree with the Adventist interpretation, is in the TIMING.  It looks to me that the "court" sits at the END of 1260 days of persecution.  That is LAST DAYS - not 1844.

Second:  I don't see this as a judgment of the entire world population.  It is ABOUT Christ, and those who are in covenant with Him (the saints of the Most High).  The only way your name comes up on Yom Kippur, is IF you are (or at one time have been) in covenant. 

"The nations" were NOT judged on Yom Kippur.  Only Israelites - those who had been, or have remained - IN COVENANT, were judged on Yom Kippur.    The "saints" - awarded the "dominion" under Christ - become priests.  Priests FOR whom?  

 

[8thdaypriest]

In the vision of Zechriah, "Joshua the High Priest" is seen in filthy garments.  Those garments are filthy BECAUSE each time we sin, we cast dishonor upon Christ.  I must admit, I had never thought of my sins in that way.  It's like I'm walking with Jesus, and I stoop down to pick up a handfull of dirt - which I throw upon Jesus.  Wow!!  Now that is a strong deterrent to sin - at least if one love's Jesus. 

[JoeMo]

Translations of the word "tsaw-dak" as used in Daniel 8:14 in some other translactions:

NIV: It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

CEB: "For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary will be restored.”

CJB: "Two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state."

CEV: "It will be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings before the temple is dedicated and in use again.”

DARBY: "Until two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings: then shall the sanctuary be vindicated.

ESV: “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

NASB: “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

[LifeHiscost]

Now that is a strong deterrent to sin - at least if one love's Jesus. 

Here's another text that accentuates that.

⁴ For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

⁵ And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

⁶ If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.....Hebrews 6

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[stinsonmarri]

Rachael: Brother Gregory is right that he stated: "However, Biblical Hebrew, as I understand it, does not always use the Perfect and Imperfect tenses in a rigid manner.  IOW, as I understand it, sometimes the perfect tense is used for events that are in the future and have not yet happened, and the imperfect tense is used, sometimes for completed events in the past.  In any case, we should be careful about being rigid in our appeal to what we think are rules of grammar." The ancient Paleo-Hebrew Script of writing was not rigid and has a poet flow to their writing to make it come alive! The word cleanse is exactly right and if you would read the complete message, it will tell just that. For the life of me I cannot understand why Adventist do not realize that Chapter 2 vision and Chapter 7 vision are different. The king was a heathen and was worried about his son who was not like him. Nebuchadnezzar was a brilliant but prideful man. However, YAHWEH saw that if he had the opportunity he could be saved him and eventually, he was!

Daniel vision on the hand delve much deeper into the three empires based on religion and not politics. Babylon was in two stages, Nimrod had it first and the people left off completing the city. Gen 11 I know most think that the Chaldeans lived in Sumer and lower Mesopotamia but that is not true! These were Aram's children and Abraham was a Hebrew and he came from Arphaxad. The Bible let's us know clearly that Abraham came from the Chaldeans Ur and not the Ur of Mesopotamia! Two brothers children lived together in the other's ones area simple!!!! This is important for you to know that the Chaldeans took over the Babylonians who were skilled in Astrology, but they refine and formed a school of the satanic arts and became the Doctorate in this study. This is important to realize that the Babylonians worked with the Chaldeans. But the lion with the eagle wings is the symbol of Nimrod worshiping Satan, and the man with the heart was Nebuchadnezzar's religion or the Neo Babylonian period. This religion, the Persian religion, and the Greece religion were merging back together!

Then the Bible says very clearly that the next beast is totally different then the other beasts. It had on its head 10 horns or nations:

 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.   Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.  Dan 7:7, 19, 20 

This beast had feet that stamped- that's a bear, iron teeth, that is Rome, his nails of brass, Greece, but wait! Then the Bible tells of the Judgment plain and clear and the end of this judgment, the beast was giving over to the burning flame. If you look at Rev 13:1-3 it states the same thing but more as ELOHIM plainly told Daniel. 

Now, ELOHIM took Daniel inside the Heavenly Temple for it to be cleanse or to be justified or to get it right because Satan had polluted it with sin. The Law required that only THE BLOOD THE LAMB in the earthly courtyard (The Heavenly Sanctuary has no courtyard) could come back before HIS FATHER and cleanse the Book of Life. The Day of Atonement was future and Rev 5 shows what Hiram Edson saw the Investigated Judgment. All of the names that were place in it and  the names that will be place in the Book that THE FATHER had in HIS HAND. That YAHSHUA took must be sealed each name will be called and his deeds will be weighed in the balance. If was in the Book but lost his or her way she was removed. If YAHSHUA blood was shed then they are cleanse and remain in the Book. The story of Redemption and Salvation is simple. There is a courtroom session going on and those who are found righteous will be cleanse, those who not, the saints will judge them and YAHSHUA the third time will come and bring their rewards with him which is the executive judgment!

Blessings and happy Sabbath!

Edited June 27, 2015 by stinsonmarri
Corrections

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 12:9  "And he said, 'God your way Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the END.'"

 Daniel 8:17  "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." (NKJ)   Spoken of the Ram/Goat vision of Daniel cpt 8.

Daniel 8:19 "And he said, 'Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.'" (NKJ)

Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." (Dan 12:4 NKJ)

The battle of the Goat and Ram will take place "in the latter time".  I just DO NOT BELIEVE that this prophecy is about ANCIENT Medo-Persia and Alexander the Great.  

And I DO NOT BELIEVE that the "time of the END" began in 1844. 

If Jesus coming before the heavenly "court" (Daniel 7:9-10) is the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type, then He must also banish the scapegoat on that SAME DAY.  I just don't see that EVENT taking place over 175+ years.  Even if you were to say that one day represents 1000 earth years, still - that's not 175+ years (since 1844). 

 

[8thdaypriest]

And as for Jesus looking thru "books" to decide whom He will save, THAT just doesn't wash.  Jesus said plainly, "I am the good Shepherd and I know my sheep" (Jn 10:14).   

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (NKJ)

Jesus knows every one of His sheep.  There is NOTHING TO "INVESTIGATE".  He doesn't need any "record books". 

At the conclusion of the "court" judgment, Jesus is given the "dominion".   He is given AUTHORITY to JUDGE.   He will judge - no one else!!!   The heavenly "judgment" is about judging whether Jesus is "worthy" to receive the dominion, and whether Satan is worthy of destruction.  That's it.  That is the essence of the "judgment" in Heaven. That "court" scene is simply to announce the verdict. 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 9:14  "I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days." 

In Daniel 7, the terrible 4th Beast overpowers and absorbs the 3 other Beasts, to create a One World Government.  The first 3 beasts (lion/bear/leopard) do NOT cease to exist.  We see them emerge in 7:12, AFTER the 4th terrible Beast is "destroyed and given to the burning flame".   The 3 beasts CANNOT be the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. 

The composite Beast is what we see in Revelation 13:1-2. 

The "little horn" ON that terrible 4th Beast is speaking blasphemies and persecuting the saints on earth, WHEN the heavenly "court" sits in Heaven.  That COURT gives Christ the authority to END that persecution.  He does that by coming to earth to execute His judgment upon the Beast (with all its horns and its little horn) and the false prophet.  They are cast into "the lake of fire" AT the Second Coming. 

The final persecution of the "saints" will last for a period of "time, times, and a part" (1260 days, 42 months).   Rev. 13:5, Rev 12:6, Rev 11:2-3, Daniel 12:7  

The prophecy of the ram/goat (Daniel 8) includes the "little horn" (of the terrible 4th Beast) - the SAME "little horn" as described in Cpt 7.   The "little horn" is the one who takes away the daily, and casts down the sanctuary." 

Daniel 8:9 "And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. . . .  11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down." (NKJ)

This LITTLE HORN is an END TIMES power.  The Heavenly Court sits WHILE he is "trampling the saints", and (as the power over the Beast) is ruling the ENTIRE WORLD. 

Daniel 11:31  "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress.  Then they shall take away the daily, and place there the abomination of desolation." 

Daniel 12:11  "From the time that the daily is taken away (by the little horn), and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." 

The LITTLE HORN is "the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:26.  "The people of the prince who is to come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."  "He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering (take away the daily).  And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate." 

The "little horn" is a LAST LAST LAST days power.  The "court" of Heaven sits just at the END of the horn's 3 and a part years of terrible persecution.  The "little horn" was NOT persecuting the "saints" back in 1844. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

The Day of Atonement was future and Rev 5 shows what Hiram Edson saw the Investigated Judgment.

The BIG QUESTION in the minds of the early Advent believers was concerning the 2300 evening/morning.  I believe that Hiram Edson could actually have been shown what would happen in heaven AT THE END of the 2300 evening/mornings.  THAT didn't tell them that the 2300 e/m ended on Oct. 22nd, 1844.  Ellen White had to have her own vision for that (which I do not accept).  It just told them that this would be an event IN HEAVEN, at the END of the 2300 e/m. 

Personally - I believe the LORD was trying to tell them that they got it WRONG.  1844 was NOT the end of the 2300 e/m. 

In Daniel 8:11, the "little horn" takes away the daily and casts down "His sanctuary".  Daniel's question was "How long will this period of persecution last, during which the sanctuary and the host will be trampled underfoot?"  (Daniel 8:13-14).  The ANSWER was, "for 2300 evening morning".  If you compare Daniel 12:11, "From the time that the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days" UNTIL Daniel rises to his inheritance - "at the END of the days".   

Look at Rev 11:2.  "They (the nations) will tread (trample) the holy city underfoot for 42 months."   Here's the SAME PROPHECY.  During this time, the "two witnesses" give their testimony - and are persecuted and finally killed.   

The "little horn" on the Beast will make a treaty, allowing the Temple to be rebuilt on the Mount.   Then the "little horn" will break the treaty, to set himself up - in the Temple - as the object of worship (for the entire world).  Then his people will destroy "the city AND the Sanctuary".  The 10 horns ON the Beast, will finally destroy the harlot. 

To me - it seems the task is to figure out how the 2300 e/m and the 1290, and the 42 months describe essentially the SAME TIME PERIOD.

The Temple Mount must be "cleansed" or "restored to its rightful state", because THAT is the "place of His name" - God's name.  Fire can "cleanse". 

Could it be that the "great harlot" riding the Beast will be Jerusalem?  She is the one termed a harlot in the OT.  She becomes like Sodom and like Egypt, "where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev 11:8).    The "two witnesses" will be killed in her street, and the people rejoice.  She was the "wife" of the LORD, and committed adultery.  She is the "daughter of a priest" who became a whore - the penalty for which is death "by fire" (Lev 21:9)  The punishment for a harlot included burning her "house" (Ezekiel 23:47).  

Rev. 18:24  "And in her was found the blood of prophet and saints, and of ALL who were slain upon the earth."  Just as in ancient times, SHE (Jerusalem) sells her body and soul, for what she thinks will bring her prosperity and fortune.  She becomes the vehicle for the "Beast" with his "little horn" to deceive - even the very elect. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

To me - it seems the task is to figure out how the 2300 e/m and the 1290, and the 42 months describe essentially the SAME TIME PERIOD.

This period ENDS with the "cleansing" of the Sanctuary Mount on earth AND the "vindication" of His name in Heaven above.

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson,

No one is saying that there will not be a judgment.  No one is saying that every human being will not answer for his choices - either for, or against the LORD.  The question is about the judgment of Daniel 7:9-10.  I contend THAT "court" scene is ABOUT JESUS. 

AFTER that scene, AFTER Jesus is given authority to judge all humankind - THEN He will separate His sheep (whom He KNOWS) from the goats. 

[stinsonmarri]

Rachel: This is what you said: "The battle of the Goat and Ram will take place "in the latter time".  I just DO NOT BELIEVE that this prophecy is about ANCIENT Mede-Persia and Alexander the Great."

Well that is your choice but evidently you do not control history and you did read the whole vision. If you had read the entire vision, you would have understood that the end of the vision did stretch out into the latter days. All of the vision was latter to Daniel because it happen after he lived. You on the other hand like to jump around instead of following the vision as it was written.

The visions Daniel see is history of the Ram and Greece at war. Greece wins the battle and after the death of Alexander who conqueror the world but did not live long, because it was his generals that really was more important. These generals fought it out until four split up the empire. Then a notable horn came out of the goat during the time of the four generals.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of Heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to THE PRINCE of the host, and by him, the Continual was taken away, and the place of HIS Sanctuary was cast down. And a host was given him against the Continual by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. Dan 8:9-12

This little horn grew strong and when it did, it took Carthage and Egypt the south, and then the east the largest power was Syria that was taken all the way to the Persian Gulf. Rome also took Israel, the pleasant land and this shows clearly that the little horn came from the north-Italy!

The Roman's from pagan to papacy did take away the Continual. What you need to understand that even Adventist close their eyes to what is the Continual. Well it certainly was not the sacrifice that the Latin's put in and is accepted by everyone. Only one thing is Continual and that is YAHWEH'S Law, it is everlasting!

Then you said: "And I DO NOT BELIEVE that the "time of the END" began in 1844."

Find you have that right, but I know that it is correct because I continue to read all of the entire chapter concerning the vision and also when Gabriel explain the 23 hundred days in various times which stretch to the latter days.

Then I heard a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that one who spoke, Till when is the vision, concerning that which is the Continual and the transgression that lays waste, to make both the Sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot? (HBR) (The Scriptures 1998+)

It is very clear that the vision spanned to give both the Sanctuary and the host (the army of Heaven) or simple the truth to be trample or hidden for a length of time.

And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Dan 8:14 

One angel was asking another angel a question and the other told Daniel that time would take 23 hundred prophetic days.

And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy, also, he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it. Dan 8:19-27 

Gabriel now comes and explains mainly the latter days, which is not as Uriah Smith stated at all! That is why I believe EGW and you don't! We needed to go back and correct what we did not understand. Gabriel does begin with Persia and Greece but he jumps over time to the latter days and speak of a king, who by the way is the eight head of the fourth beast that is also seen by Daniel after the Time of Trouble and in Rev 11, 13, 16, 17 and he is destroyed in Chapter 19. The exact same thing Daniel saw in Dan 7:11, 12. YAHWEH keeps giving the same message in more and more detail that is all!

You said: "If Jesus coming before the heavenly "court" (Daniel 7:9-10) is the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type, then He must also banish the scapegoat on that SAME DAY.  I just don't see that EVENT taking place over 175+ years.  Even if you were to say that one day represents 1000 earth years, still - that's not 175+ years (since 1844). And as for Jesus looking thru "books" to decide whom He will save, THAT just doesn't wash.  Jesus said plainly, "I am the good Shepherd and I know my sheep" (Jn 10:14)."  

It appears that you have all of it totally mixed up based on the earthly service and not the Heavenly. You do not see that they are different!

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a HIGH PRIEST, who is set on the RIGHT HAND of the Throne of the MAJESTY in the Heavens.  A MINISTER of the Sanctuary, and of the True Tabernacle, which YAHWEH pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this MAN has somewhat also to offer. For if HE were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Heb 8:1-4 

THE HOLY SPIRIT signifying this, that the way into the HOLIEST of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Heb 9:8  (KJV), (The Scriptures 1998+)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices, there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb 10:1-4 

Your view of the scapegoat theory has no merit because sinful man tabernacle was not the True Tabernacle pitch by YAHWEH, it was perfect!

You said: "Jesus knows every one of His sheep.  There is NOTHING TO "INVESTIGATE."  He doesn't need any "record books."

Well, I guess the Bible lies then because it said records and it is based those who once were save but had to be remove by a fair and just ELOHIM.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Dan 7:10 

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of ELOHIM sent forth into all the earth. And HE came and took the book out of the RIGHT HAND of HIM that sat upon the Throne. Rev 5:1, 6, 7 

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev 17:8 

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before ELOHIM; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:12 

So you see Rachel I choose to believe the Bible because it is consistent and my faith is the original Seventh Day Adventist message. They did not understand it all as I will say it again, there were errors made, but we must go over the Word and research it carefully and most of all you must understand history. It is HIS-story that has been found throughout time that is correct.

You said: "At the conclusion of the "court" judgment, Jesus is given the "dominion".   He is given AUTHORITY to JUDGE.   He will judge - no one else!!!   The heavenly "judgment" is about judging whether Jesus is "worthy" to receive the dominion, and whether Satan is worthy of destruction.  That's it.  That is the essence of the "judgment" in Heaven. That "court" scene is simply to announce the verdict. To me - it seems the task is to figure out how the 2300 e/m and the 1290, and the 42 months describe essentially the SAME TIME PERIOD.

They are not in the same time period as the vision gives you. The problem is you have to understand ancient Hebrew words as they are certain different types of verbs that are attach with them. Different sometime from our English language so you have to go back and retrace the English language that changes it meaning over time from the Greek or Latin. These ancient people languages were more constant than the English language of today

'Achărı̂yth: From H310; the last or end, hence the future; also posterity: - (last, latter) end (time), hinder (utter) -most, length, posterity, remnant, residue, reward.

‛Eth: time, especially (adverbially with preposition) now, when, etc.: -    + after, [al-] ways, X certain, + continually, + evening, long, (due) season, so [long] as, [even-, evening-, noon-] tide, ([meal-], what) time, when.

Qêts: an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: -  + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. Dan 10:14 

And at that, time shall Michael stand's up Dan 12:1 and that time is giving certain things that are totally different from the other vision of the Judgment time!  It a Time of Trouble that has never before existed on the earth. All the people who will be delivered or saved will be found in the Book of Life and then Gabriel explains clearly, what will take place at this time. Dead people will arise some to shame or destruction, while others for everlasting life. Talks about a group who is wise and this group will finish bringing others in during this time.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12: 4

This is so simple because time has not come to an end yet! Why, because Daniel was shown the Time of Trouble before the short probation time that will come to an end!!!! Gabriel tells Daniel close up your book until the time of the end when knowledge shall increase. Look up above and see what ends means!

Then Daniel sees two angels and THE ONE who is above the water and again a question is asked about how long will this Time of Trouble will last. YAHSHUA lift up HIS HAND and makes an oath to HIS FATHER.

. . .It shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Dan 12:7

Now once again, we as Adventist did not understand this but again the he is the beast, who is a man that will scatter ELOHIM'S people when he arrives. Now follow the message!

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my master, what shall be the end of these things?  And he (Gabriel) said go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the Covenant (Law of ELOHIM) shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. Dan 12:8-13 

 This is what takes place the wicked will not understand but the wise will! Those who will be purified by the wise and them together will understand this time. The 1260 is literal time of 3 1/2 which is also in Revelation Chapter 11! The thirty days after all those who are sealed in the Book of Life, probation ends! But during that short period of time, there are some events that will happen like the seven plagues and the saints hearing that YAHSHUA is on the way with in the 1335 days or 75 days from when the Time of Trouble is close! There is no more salvation once the Time of Trouble is close. The 15 days is told to the saints that YAHSHUA will arrive that is why it is blessed that wait on that time. I will state this again the rest of the events are in Revelation. John was given a deeper or more detail view of what Daniel saw!

You said: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." John 10:27 (NKJ)

This period ENDS with the "cleansing" of the Sanctuary Mount on earth AND the "vindication" of His name in Heaven above."

I am sorry that is not correct because the Sanctuary is not mention at all during this time. You will not find it in this Chapter at all. The atonement is finish once the last group are saved by the wise and both are found in the Book of Life. This will take place during the Time of Trouble and not now! YAHSHUA make it plain that the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. I do not agree with the idea that the Adventist Church is the remnant! EGW saw the remnant, the 144,000 of Israel Daniel's people who will come out of the Advent Church! But many Adventist will be lost and others will suffer persecution and died but the 144,000 will not. Israel is ELOHIM'S name HE gives to all who overcomes. This word Jew the ancient Israel would not accept it because the Roman gave them that name like Afrikan people would was give the n word! They were called Israel and it simply means to overcome! These wise virgins will have their extra oil to finish the Gospel in the worst time to bring all nations, tongues and people back to ELOHIM!  I am an Adventist by faith I accept the original statement of this church which is the following:

In presenting to the public this synopsis of our faith, we wish to have it distinctly understood that we have no articles of faith, creed, or discipline, aside from the Bible. We do not put forth this as having any authority with our people, nor is it designed to secure uniformity among them, as a system of faith, but is a brief statement of what is, and has been, with great unanimity, held by them. We often find it necessary to meet inquiries on this subject and sometimes to correct false statements circulated against us, and to remove erroneous impressions which have obtained with those who have not had an opportunity to become acquainted with our faith and practice. Our only object is to meet this necessity. A Declaration of the Fundamental Principles Taught & Practiced by The Seventh-Day Adventists (1872)

Rachel you have made your choice and only through THE HOLY SPIRIT HE is THE ONE who is able to lead you to all truth. I am not upset with you because everyone must choose for themselves. I will stand up firm about what I choose to believe even if some things I do not agree with the doctrines and traditions that my Church have move toward. I know that this church was given the final message and it is up to them to search for correcting error if they allow THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead instead them on their own. I will not give up on them because I know that many will change and address the same things I have soon! Pray for me as I will for you, but I am steadfast with my faith!

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

stinsonmarrie,

Your post is waaaaaaay to long.  No one is going to READ a post this long. 

[8thdaypriest]

stinsonmarrie,

Thank you for restating the SDA position.   There is something called the dual prophecy.   It can have several fulfillments which "fit" almost, but not quite.  But there can only be ONE true perfect filled-full-ment. 

stinsonmarrie said, "The visions Daniel see is history of the Ram and Greece at war. Greece wins the battle and after the death of Alexander who conqueror the world but did not live long, because it was his generals that really was more important. These generals fought it out until four split up the empire. Then a notable horn came out of the goat during the time of the four generals.

First:  HISTORY tells us that Alexander's empire split into SIX, then down to FIVE, then finally to THREE.  It did NOT split into FOUR kingdoms.  THAT just does not fit history. 

Second:  The goat comes "across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground".  THAT describes AIR power. 

The goat is furious.  Alexander wasn't "furious".  He just wanted to expand his empire.  And he slogged for years, fighting battle after battle along the way - to finally defeat Darius and the Persians. 

In 334 BC, when Alexander crossed the Hellespont into Asia, It took over one hundred triremes (boats with oars) to transport the entire Macedonian army.   LOTS of historical information is available on wikipedia. 

[stinsonmarri]

I do not think it is as long as your several posts which I did answer. If others read it, it is because of THE HOLY SPIRIT and not how long it is. My user name is stinsonmarri and there is not an e at the end. I said very clearly; these generals fought it out until four split up the empire":

Following the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C., his successors competed for his throne. After numerous battles and shifts of allegiance, the empire was divided up among five of Alexander’s generals, as shown in this map. The rivalry for power continued, however, and after the defeat of Antigonus at the Battle of Ipsus in 301 B.C., there were four kingdoms. by Holt, Rinehart and Winston

In Asia, the Macedonian commanders who served Alexander fought each other for power.  Perdiccas and Meleager were murdered, Antigonus rose to control most of Asia, but his growth of power brought the other Macedonian generals in coalition against him.  He was killed in battle and the Macedonian Empire split into four main kingdoms - the one of Seleucus (Asia), Ptolemy (Egypt), Lysimachus (Thrace), and Antipater's son Cassander (Macedonia, including Greece). The rise of Rome put an end to Macedonian kingdoms. Macedonia and Greece were conquered in 167/145 BC, Seleucid Asia by 65 BC, and Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian descendant of Ptolemy committed suicide in 30 BC, after which Egypt was added to the Roman Empire. www.historyofmadedonia.org

It is sad that you are more concern with the length and not the merit of what was written! The only piece you tried to qualified is against the fact there were four generals, in which I provided in few words that their were more but it dwindle down to four exactly as the Bible predicted. This is what your claim was not so and it wasn't! Being a Biblical Historian scholar, it would be my duty to provide historical facts as well as Biblical truth. I humbly ask of you that you will take the time to review your thought on these matters because history holds up the Bible, which is the greatest history book of this world history ever written!!!!!

Blessings!

     

 

[8thdaypriest]

I do not think it is as long as your several posts which I did answer. If others read it, it is because of THE HOLY SPIRIT and not how long it is. My user name is stinsonmarri and there is not an e at the end. I said very clearly; these generals fought it out until four split up the empire":

Following the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C., his successors competed for his throne. After numerous battles and shifts of allegiance, the empire was divided up among five of Alexander’s generals, as shown in this map. The rivalry for power continued, however, and after the defeat of Antigonus at the Battle of Ipsus in 301 B.C., there were four kingdoms. by Holt, Rinehart and Winston

In Asia, the Macedonian commanders who served Alexander fought each other for power.  Perdiccas and Meleager were murdered, Antigonus rose to control most of Asia, but his growth of power brought the other Macedonian generals in coalition against him.  He was killed in battle and the Macedonian Empire split into four main kingdoms - the one of Seleucus (Asia), Ptolemy (Egypt), Lysimachus (Thrace), and Antipater's son Cassander (Macedonia, including Greece). The rise of Rome put an end to Macedonian kingdoms. Macedonia and Greece were conquered in 167/145 BC, Seleucid Asia by 65 BC, and Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian descendant of Ptolemy committed suicide in 30 BC, after which Egypt was added to the Roman Empire. www.historyofmadedonia.org

It is sad that you are more concern with the length and not the merit of what was written! The only piece you tried to qualified is against the fact there were four generals, in which I provided in few words that their were more but it dwindle down to four exactly as the Bible predicted. This is what your claim was not so and it wasn't! Being a Biblical Historian scholar, it would be my duty to provide historical facts as well as Biblical truth. I humbly ask of you that you will take the time to review your thought on these matters because history holds up the Bible, which is the greatest history book of this world history ever written!!!!!

Blessings!

 

 

     

 

stinsonmarri,

Obviously - I READ your long post.  I was just trying to help you - at this forum.  Folks don't tend to read LONG posts in small print.  That's all.