The "cleansing" OF THE SANCTUARY

[stinsonmarri]

Rachael: You said "The goat comes "across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground".  THAT describes AIR power." My, my, it appears that you take a word which is an expression of speech and just run with it! So the goat because he did not touch the ground do not mean you swiftness but air power! I hate to say this is the goat an alien now or a flying ship. Because it has to be, since the next verse shows that the he goat was with choler and the notable horn hit and killed the ram. What was his foot when he stamped on him sometime of gun or what was the ram, us human's? Because you do believe in the chapters that follow, when Gabriel came and explain the two kingdoms and how the event took place!

And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. Therefore, the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. Dan 8:6-8 

Also, I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.  And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those. Dan 11:1-4  

Then you said: "The goat is furious.  Alexander wasn't "furious".  He just wanted to expand his empire.  And he slogged for years, fighting battle after battle along the way - to finally defeat Darius and the Persians. In 334 BC, when Alexander crossed the Hellespont into Asia, It took over one hundred triremes (boats with oars) to transport the entire Macedonian army.   LOTS of historical information is available on wikipedia."

 Alexander’s military genius is undisputed. He improved the fine army inherited from his father, Philip, by the addition of allied forces; he strengthened the cavalry arm, utilized weapons specialists, and employed a corps of engineers; he was invincible in both siege warfare and set battles. His movements were marked by speed; his logistical, intelligence, and communications operations were flawless; and his ability to improvise was unrivaled. HISTORY.com

With his Macedonian forces, Alexander subdued and united the Greeks and reestablished the Corinthian League after almost a century of warfare between the Greek city-states following the Peloponnesian War. Thus, Alexander set the stage for his conquest of the Persian Empire, motivated both by personal ambition and by the Greeks' centuries-old hatred for their perennial Asian foes since the Persian Wars. His campaigns were not only wars of liberation of Greek colonies in Asia Minor but also revenge for Persian depredations in Greece in years past.

When news reached Alexander of Greek naval victories in the Aegean, he sped eastward to the passes of the Taurus and Syria. By the late summer of 333, Alexander was in Cilicia, south of Darius and his armies. At Issus, the two kings met in battle. Alexander was outnumbered, but utilizing the oblique formations he rushed the Persian center line and Darius turned his chariot and fled. The Persian line crumbled. Alexander the Great." Encyclopedia of World Biography

I use Wikipedia but only if there are references from reliable sources! I think the above says it all!

Blessings!

 

[8thdaypriest]

Concerning the vision of “the ram” and the “he goat,” the persecution carried out by the “little horn,” and the "cleansing" (or vindication) of the sanctuary:

Gabriel said to Daniel “at the time of the end shall be the vision” (Daniel 8:17).  “I am making known to you what shall happen (future) in the latter time of the indignation” (Daniel 8:19). 

The Amplified Bible reads “the fulfillment of the vision belongs to events that shall occur in the time of the end” (Daniel 8:17).  Alexander the Great defeated Persia back in 331 BC, which was not “the time of the end.”

[stinsonmarri]

Thinks for you help but I saw noone but me who read the several post you wrote. It appear you became angry sorry that you did! I wrote to you especially and as I said if THE HOLY SPIRIT wants others to read this post they will. My concern is your lack of history knowledge, no offense! I only wanted you to know that I have studied Greece history in college and I am aware of the campaigns of the ancient empires. I became quite skilled on these subjects and they do line up with the Bible. I do not want to insult you but some of the things you present to be honest makes no sense, I am sorry!

Blessings! 

[8thdaypriest]

     Seventh-day Adventists along with many other Christian believers down through the centuries, have explained that the male goat represents the Greek empire. The four horns on the male goat (Daniel 8:8) and the 4 wings of the leopard beast (Daniel 7:6) represent the division of Alexander the Great's empire by his generals (Great Controversy, 1944 edition, p.150–155). 

Here is a little more history.      (See Empires Ascendant by the editors of Time-Life Books, Alexandria, Virginia, p.31-36;  The Times Atlas of World History, revised edition  published by Hammond Inc. Maplewood, New Jersey, copyright 1994 by Times Books Limited, London.)

    The struggle over the empire built by Alexander lasted for two generations, and during that time the empire broke apart. 

The eastern possessions in India and Afghanistan were among the first to go, reverting fully to their local rulers. 

The Greek city-states were soon engaged in their old disputes.  Eventually they sorted themselves into two new groupings, the Aetolian and Achaean leagues. 

Alexander’s top generals fought over the remainder of the empire.   Initially, the plan was to hold the lands in trust for his two legitimate heirs: an epileptic half brother in Macedonia and an infant son named Alexander, born to Roxane.  But this plan was doomed from the start.  The generals proceeded to go at each other tooth and nail, grabbing land, trading territories, shifting sides, plotting assassinations, and betraying friends.  The heirs, and all other close relatives of Alexander were murdered. 

When the first generals died, their sons continued the fight.  Eventually new boundaries were drawn.  Three large kingdoms became dominant: (1) Egypt, ruled by the heirs of Ptolemy the First (2) Macedonia, under the descendants of the general Antiocus, dominated northern Greece; and (3) the larger domains of the Seleucid Kings, who ruled over Syria, Media, Persia, and Mesopotamia.

    The large Seleucid kingdom proved to be ungovernable.  A new warrior tribe rose from obscurity on the Iranian plateau, the Parthians, who began carving out their own imperial sphere. 

Also Pergamum maintained an independence which came to overshadow much of Asia Minor, and further east the kingdom of the Bactrain Greeks broke away from Seleucid control.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

And yes - I will try to take my own advice.  I will attempt to shorten my posts. 

[8thdaypriest]

The “he-goat” of Daniel 8:7  breaks the “two horns” of the ram in one very swift battle. The two kings represented by the horns must both be living at the same time. This has never happened. When Alexander the Great conquered Darius III of Persia, the Medo.-Persian empire had been ruled by kings of the Persian dynasty for over 200 years.  Media had been absorbed by Persia and no longer had a separate national identity.

[8thdaypriest]

The final picture in Daniel Cpt 8, presents a goat with four horns -- and a little horn sprouted from one of the four. 

Traditionally SDAs and others have taught that the goat represents Alexander the Great, and the four horns are the divisions of his empire with the papacy arising out of the Roman horn.  But GREECE never conquered Rome.  So Rome cannot be said to have been one of 4 divisions of Alexander's empire.  Rome conquered GREECE.  It was NEVER part of GREECE, not did it come out of GREECE. 

My concern is with the GOAT.   The goat does not cease to exist.  The goat itself is not split into four parts. 

We are left with a GOAT. 

And so my question:  What or who is represented by the GOAT ? 

My personal belief is that the GOAT represents a coalition of several nations, which will come against the RAM (militant Islam) in the LAST DAYS.  Once the RAM is dispatched, the nations will no longer need the "notable horn", and he will be cast aside (broken without hand).  The coalition will still exist - finally lead/ruled by the "little horn". 

[stinsonmarri]

Rachel as I am aware of how the Grecian empire broke apart, keep in mind that YAHWEH was focusing on the Gentile time to rule! If you would notice that Rome would become the master Ruler and after it fell the religion of the Gentile especially the Greeks took over and has ruled to this day. YAHWEH main goal was to show the body of the beast, Greece who has changed the world and the monotheistic ideology we have today! All believe in the trinity religion that India, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, China,  and Japan have believed for centuries! Nimrod belief system spread out throughout the world with pagan concept of three headed beings. The fascination with Egypt by Greece also has turned the world back to Nimrod, which is what the prophetic history gives. YAHWEH is not interested how Alexander's kingdom broke apart, instead the focus is on HIS Law, Judgment, and Statutes that were constantly been broken. The affairs of men was to show how Nimrod's religion would be revived through time and one man the beast would leave the lost cause away knowing that the papacy lied. The knowledge of this man is that Satan himself gives him the power. He goes against the very one who raised him to gain back the Papacy power as an empire to have the world to worship their false belief that he was both THE FATHER and THE SON. Yet, the whore will get her just reward, he turns and hates her in the final battle of this world history Armageddon that most thinks is the war between the pope and YAHSHUA-wrong! The beast will fight the Pope, the false Jews, the Protestant world and yes most Adventist as well! Where in Jerusalem, where the papacy always wanted and will have sit a little while in the rebuild temple! But the beast will take it and he is the son of perdition, the wicked one Paul talked about and he along with this country and the kings who give him complete allegiance! As they prepare to take the wise virgins and the great multitude, YAHSHUA will fight our battle and the beast, the false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. History points to the main events that concerns truth and justice about the true CREATORS of Heaven that is what I believe in yes, THEY are THREE that work together but THEY are THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS that Adam and Eve were made in THEIR IMAGE. That is my concern and my goal to be with the remnant not as a church, but as one of the 144,000! I must feed my 91 year old mother now, I will respond later!

Blessings!

Edited June 28, 2015 by stinsonmarri

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel as I am aware of how the Grecian empire broke apart, keep in mind that YAHWEH was focusing on the Gentile time to rule! If you would notice that Rome would become the master Ruler and after it fell the religion of the Gentile especially the Greeks took over and has ruled to this day. YAHWEH main goal was to show the body of the beast, Greece who has changed the world and the monotheistic ideology we have today! All believe in the trinity religion that India, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, China,  and Japan have believed for centuries! Nimrod belief system spread out throughout the world with pagan concept of three headed beings. The fascination with Egypt by Greece also has turned the world back to Nimrod, which is what the prophetic history gives. YAHWEH is not interested how Alexander's kingdom broke apart, instead the focus is on HIS Law, Judgment, and Statutes that were constantly been broken. The affairs of men was to show how Nimrod's religion would be revived through time and one man the beast would leave the lost cause away knowing that the papacy lied. The knowledge of this man is that Satan himself gives him the power. He goes against the very one who raised him to gain back the Papacy power as an empire to have the world to worship their false belief that he was both THE FATHER and THE SON. Yet, the whore will get her just reward, he turns and hates her in the final battle of this world history Armageddon that most thinks is the war between the pope and YAHSHUA-wrong! The beast will fight the Pope, the false Jews, the Protestant world and yes most Adventist as well! Where in Jerusalem, where the papacy always wanted and will have sitting a little while in the rebuild temple! But the beast will take it and he is the son of perdition, the wicked one Paul talked about and he along with this country and the kings who give him complete allegiance! As they prepare to take the wise virgins and the great multitude, YAHSHUA will fight our battle and the beast, the false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. History points to the main events that concerns truth and justice about the true CREATORS of Heaven that is what I believe in yes, THEY are THREE that work together but THEY are THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS that Adam and Eve were made in THEIR IMAGE. That is my concern and my goal to be with the remnant not as a church, but as one of the 144,000! I must feed my 91 year old mother now, I will respond later!

Blessings!

Thank you for sharing your view.  Very interesting. 

We both have the final battle happening at Jerusalem.  We both believe that the 10 Horns on the Beast will destroy the Harlot (which you say is "the Pope, the false Jews, the Protestant world, and yes most Adventist as well".  

Personally - I believe the "harlot" will BE Jerusalem (the present nation called Israel).  I believe SHE will defile herself with the Beast, after her eagles wings are pulled off.  

You seem to believe "the BEAST" is one man.  I believe "the BEAST" is a one-world government system, with 10 kings, and a little horn.  Now - the "little horn" might represent one man.  Maybe. He may be the "false prophet" who leads men everywhere to make an image to the BEAST.

You also clearly believe in the "three living beings of the heavenly Trio".  Quoting you:  "THEY are THREE that work together but THEY are THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS that Adam and Eve were made in THEIR IMAGE".

I personally DO NOT BELIEVE that God is 3 divine beings.  I worship only the Father and His only Son.  There is no command in Scripture to worship another divine being called the Holy Spirit. 

So - we are far from agreement on MANY things.  We may simply have to agree, to disagree. 

[stinsonmarri]

Rachael: Thank you for the last comment. You see where we differ is with the fourth beast. It is the horn, which history coincided with Bible that it is the Papacy. Here is where I differ with Adventist as well ts all has to with history and time. I know that YAHWEH chose an ethnic group in each one of Noah's sons. The Canaanites were the first and Melchizedek he was both king and priest of ELOHIM. Not his father before him or his son after would follow ELOHIM like he did. He built Jerusalem and its short name is Salem. Gen 15:16 tells, that time was running out on the Canaanites and YAHWEH was giving the ruling class 430 years, then they were to be wiped out. Israel did not do this and they were next one YAHWEH chose from Shem and in the 2300 days that Gabriel explain they had 490 years and the stoning of Stephen sealed their fate. The Gentile were the next from Japheth and especially with the finding of the country called in the Bible the "wilderness." The colonizing of America started in 1607 and up to this time it is 408 years, but sin is shorting the Gentile's time. The Pope is the whore and the Gentile of Rev 11:1-3 and she has tried with the crusades to take Jerusalem. However, it was a muslim ruler who gave the Catholic rights to worship in Jerusalem and also a lot of land they owned today! This was negotiated by Richard the Lionhearted! The Catholic will have it again with the temple being rebuilt. Jerusalem if you look at Chap. 18 of Revelation is Babylon. She is the one that has killed ELOHIM'S prophets! It will be destroyed for the New Jerusalem will come down and take its place one Mount Olivet be made a plain! The temple is not inside of the city but on Mount Moriah that is also called Zion. It is not the Dome of the Rock it is the rubble on the Southeast side outside the Byzantine wall.

The little horn on the beast became the head that was wounded by Napoleon, which was the Papal Rome Empire that ended. But the wound was healed and the whore is riding the beast who was healed. He is the eighth of the seventh the Papacy but he will leave her. He knows she's being lying and he knows and accept Satan. You see it does not make sense that Satan and his angels were kick down to a perfect earth. That is ridiculous! The Greek word "ge" mean soil or land mass. Satan was kicked out before this world was made and he and the angels left their first estate. Jude 1:7 You do not hear of the other angels except one time, the legion and they were expelled. To keep from returning to prison beyond or through the other side of Orion, they asked to go into the pigs, they killed them and then they to return. Only Satan is the one you hear about, although each of us have both a good and evil angel. YAHWEH only permits so many of them here, if HE didn't they would wipe us out!!!! Well the beast is taken to Satan's kingdom and receive his seat, authority and power! This is part of the mystery that Adventist do take the time and read things through also the exact meaning of ancient words! The beast is giving the earth and he believes that Satan is the rightful ruler of the universe. He is the man in Dan 11 last few verses and he must remove the papacy which is still ELOHIM'S plans. The Bible clearly state all through it that earth is ELOHIM not all the wicked kingdoms of the world!

Finally I believe in THREE because the Bible says there are THREE. Gen 1:2 in ancient languages did not use conjunctions it should say, "and THE SPIRIT ELOHIM moved upon the face of the earth." The Bible also said that HE nevers speaks of HIMSELF but if you do not listen to HIM and HE leaves, you are done!  I believe the Bible completely and I understand it and I do not interpret it as it says not to do, and I don't!

Blessings!

[Naomi]

Thank you Jackson

[BobRyan]

I noticed that the word translated "cleansed" in Dan 8:14 is NOT the word usually translated "cleansed". 

Daniel 8:14 “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (KJV)  "cleansed" - 06663 צָדַק tsadaq {tsaw-dak'}

Daniel 8:14 is the ONLY place in Scripture where the word tsadaq is translated as “cleansed”.  Strong's gives the definition as “justified’ or “vindicated” or “set right”.  

So - After the 2300 evening/mornings HEAVEN (the true Tabernacle) would be vindicated.  

 A different word is used when the priest makes atonement for a person, so he could be cleansed. 

Numbers 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." KJV

"cleansed" =  03722 rp;K' kaphar {kaw-far'} Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation,

It really puts a whole new slant on Daniel 8:14.    At what point, or at what event, is (or was) heaven vindicated ? 

OR If the word means "set right" then is this pointing to the House of God being restored to it's rightful state?

Also the word "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14 is in the PERFECT tense, meaning the "cleansing" is complete at the end of 2300 evening/mornings. 

When you get home from work - then shall the garage be swept - is not the same as "by then the garage will have been swept"

This "made right" and "justified" and "cleansed" etc are all applicable because the saints are "pillars in the house of God" - and the questions regarding salvation are not being answered on earth but in heaven itself where the IJ - separates the truly saved Christian from the "In name only" Christian.

in Christ,

Bob

 

'.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus did not need a judgment to give Him authority. Jesus had that authority after His resurrection, as He Himself plainly stated:Matt  28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The books opened in Dan 7:9-10 are the books containing the records of our deeds, not those of Jesus.

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him."

1 Corinthians 15:27-28  "For He [the Father] has put all things under His feet. But when He says 'all things are put under Him,' it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him [the Father] who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (NKJ)

God speaks of those things which are not yet - as if they already exist.  All things are NOT YET in subjection to Christ.  And Christ has not yet received "dominion".   He will receive the dominion at the conclusion of the "court" scene, described in Daniel 7:9-10. 

NKJ  Daniel 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

If - as you say - Christ was given dominion at His resurrection, then the Daniel 7 court scene took place at that time.  The events on earth, WHILE this judgment sits in Heaven, would suggest otherwise.  The events transpiring on earth, suggest this "court" scene will take place at the very END of this age.   

I believe the "dominion" is taken from Satan, and proclaimed to be Christ's, at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. 

Revelation 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"   

(v. 18)  "The time has come for judging the dead [the wicked raised at the SC], and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18 NIV)

Christ will judge the wicked DEAD, when He resurrects them to face judgment AT His glorious return.  (Daniel 12:2-3)  On that SAME DAY, Jesus will reward His own servants, and those who destroy the earth will be destroyed WHEN the earth is consumed by the 7 wrath plagues (which begin on that SAME DAY).  

AFTER Christ receives "the dominion" THEN He will judge, and He will execute judgment.  I do not believe that the redeemed will decide what punishment each lost person will suffer in the "lake of fire" (an EGW statement).   NO way!!  "All judgment is committed to the Son."  I do believe the redeemed will be able to ask questions, and receive answers concerning just WHY the LORD judged as He did, but it is the LORD JESUS who will judge human beings. 

[Gerr]

To me it doesn't matter whether it is translated "cleansed" or "restored to its rightful state."  Consider what Lucifer did to the harmony in God's sanctuary in heaven when he rebelled.  That caused division and chaos in His sanctuary.  In addition, the sin of Lucifer also polluted God's sanctuary, then add to that the pollution of all the sins of humans  that have been and are being transferred to His sanctuary when they repent.  It takes the atoning blood of Jesus not only to cleanse it but also to restore it to its pristine or rightful state before sin raised its ugly head.

[8thdaypriest]

It is in the judgment that determines who makes up Christ's kingdom. The judgment is not whether Christ is worthy to have a Dominion and have all things "put under Him". Of course all things are not put under Him yet as that must wait till the events on earth are played out , but that does not mean  that the judgment in Dan 7 will determine iwhether Christ is worthy to have dominion.

The judgment is to see who is worhty to be part of His dominion for ever and ever, and that is yet to be fully determined, and will not be fully determined until the judgment ends and "His jewels  are made up" .

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.  3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

You said"that the court scene of Dan 7:9-10 is about Jesus. But the books being opened rcontain the record of our lives.

Are you saying that there are 3 separate judgments at 3 separate times? One judgment is for Jesus, one for the "informed" and a third for children and the "uninformed "?

I'm saying that JESUS - and ONLY JESUS, will judge.  This business of the redeemed saints looking through books and passing sentence on the lost, and determining just how long each one will suffer in the "lake of fire" (per Ellen White) - is UNTHINKABLE. 

Yes - The redeemed WILL need to understand just WHY Jesus did not save their brother, or mother, or cousin.  The LORD will explain, so that the redeemed can have closure, (can judge for themselves that the LORD has been just) and continue to trust in HIM.  But that does NOT mean any redeemed human being will DETERMINE the final end for other persons.  

I have already quoted Scripture references, so I won't print them again here.  I will ask that folks go back to read through this thread.

Here is my understand of the sequence of events:

1.  Jesus was resurrected and ascended to the MOST HOLY PLACE.  He has "entered the presence behind the veil".  Where God is - IS - the MHP.  He anointed "heaven itself, the true tabernacle", just as Moses anointed the earthly wilderness Tabernacle.  This was the presentation of the "Lord's goat".  The LORD's goat - Jesus - was found to be perfect and acceptable. 

When Daniel 9 says "to anoint the most holy", I believe that refers to Jesus anointing Heaven itself with His blood, WHEN He ascended. 

2.  Jesus said clearly that He KNOWS those who are HIS.  He does NOT need to look through any books, to judge.  The final Day of Atonement - will be the day that Jesus goes before the Daniel 7 "court" to RECEIVE THE DOMINION.    When Christ receives the dominion, He will IMMEDIATELY come forth from the Heavenly Tabernacle (just as the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement) to rescue those who "are His" - to remove them from the earth.   Events on earth, where the "little horn" is ruling, and has been persecuting the saints for 42 months, tell us that this is END TIME. 

Heaven has a Book of Eternal Life, just as the Jerusalem Temple had a book of the names of the citizens of Israel.  Anciently, if a person was known to be "cursed" of God, his name would be blotted out of the Book of Citizens in the Temple.  Jesus is the ONLY ONE who can blot a name out.  He will blot those names on the DAY of Atonement, WHEN that He receives the dominion. 

The EVIDENCE from events on earth has already convinced the heavenly "court" that Satan deserves the blame, and Jesus deserves the "dominion".  The DAY of the final "court" scene is simply the DAY when the "court" will PRONOUNCE this judgment. 

3.  On the DAY Jesus receives the "dominion" (when all things are put under Him) He will return in glory to rescue "those who are His".  ALL of the redeemed will be resurrected.  ALL of those who have knowingly REFUSED the Spirit of Christ, will ALSO be resurrected to face judgment (Daniel 12:2-3).  The redeemed will leave earth with Christ, and will go to the City which Christ has prepared - to prepare for the priesthood.  The wicked (those who knowingly refused) will be left on earth.  Earth will be consumed by 7 wrath plagues, and will be finally "burned up". 

Those who lived in ignorance are NOT counted "wicked" by Christ.  The ignorant who died in the past will NOT be resurrected on this DAY, and those still living at the SC will be "slain by the brightness of His coming".  They will NOT have to suffer the plagues of wrath "unmixed with mercy". 

4.  AFTER the 1000 years, the redeemed (now priests) will return to earth with Christ.  Christ will restore the earth to Edenic beauty and life.  NOW "the rest of the dead" - those NOT raised at the SC, will be resurrected.  They will be "nations in the four corners of the earth".  Christ will have "dominion" and will govern thru His priesthood.  These people will be educated in the ways of the LORD.  Many will come to know HIM, and will be "grafted in" to the Kingdom of God. 

Most of those raised AFTER the 1000 years will rebel against the rule of Christ, BECAUSE Satan is loosed and he will deceive them into thinking they can overcome Christ and His priesthood.  They will come up as a great army to overthrow Jerusalem and Christ.  Fire will come down from God, and consume them.  Notice in the Ezekiel account of the Gog/Magog Battle, that the "fire" will also come down on those who live at some distance from the actually Battle scene. 

Ezekiel 39:5  "I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coast lands". 

Satan and his angels are thrown into "the lake of fire" at this Battle.  His name will not come up in the Great White Throne Judgment. 

AFTER the "fire" kills Gog and his followers, the people who are left alive will spend 7 MONTHS collecting the bones, to bury them in "the Valley of Hamon Gog" (Ezek 39:11-16).  A City of Hamonah will actually remain there, as a memorial I guess, to the consequences of rebellion. 

This final ATTACK is not a judgment per se., as in looking thru books.  It is God defending His own City, and His own dominion.  If you are ATTACKING the City of God, then you WILL be destroyed - period.

5.  AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle, will come the "Great White Throne Judgment".  The DEAD are "judged" - once again, this time by the redeemed.  And they ARE DEAD - NOT ALIVE.  This is the final review and closure for the redeemed of Christ.  This "judgment" does NOT determine the fate of these DEAD people.  It is only closure for the redeemed.  They will examine the records one last time.  They will JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES that  the Father and His Son have done everything divinely possible to reach these people who are now DEAD.  They will see that none of these people surrendered to Christ, pleading His blood covering.  The redeemed will conclude that these people should never be resurrected - forever, because they would not benefit, and others would be harmed.  (Sort of like putting a rabid dog to sleep.)    Once the questions of the redeemed are answered by this examination of the records, God will proceed to wipe out - in a special "lake of fire" - His own retained "memory" of these DEAD people.  God retains an essence, a memory, the spirit of each human who DIES.  It is this retained essence, that will be destroyed - once and for all - in the special "lake of fire".   Personally, I believe that God will resorb their energy into Himself.  He is the "fire".  Matter does not cease to exist. 

 

Suffering will be felt by those resurrected to face judgment and execution at the SC.  There is nothing to be gained by raising them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN.

And suffering will be felt by those consumed at the Gog/Magog Battle. 

Those consumed by the special "lake of fire" after the "Great White Throne Judgment" ARE ALREADY DEAD.  They are NOT resurrected again to face this "judgment".  This is closure for the redeemed.   

Edited July 5, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

The New Jerusalem cannot descend to earth UNTIL all sin is cleansed.  The NJ will not descend to earth until AFTER the Battle of Gog/Magog, and AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and "lake of fire". 

WHEN Christ, with the redeemed from the first 6000 years, returns to earth - Christ will also "restore the Temple".  There will be a Temple of Yahweh, on planet earth, AFTER the 7th millennium.  Ezekiel describes this Temple. 

    Ezekiel 37:15-27  The LORD will gather the children of Israel.  Judah and Israel will be joined into one kingdom - never to be separated again, with one King - from the line of David (v.24). The Lord will then make an everlasting covenant of peace with those He has gathered (v.26).  “My tabernacle also shall be with them; . . . The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, WHEN My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

    Here we see Israel returned, and the Sanctuary restored in the midst of  “the nations,” who KNOW (who see - because of this) that the LORD has indeed chosen Israel.

    NOTE:  Ezekiel (a captive in Babylon) saw in vision, the “whole house of Israel”  resurrected, gathered and returned to “the land” (Ezekiel 37:11). Then the prophet was shown “a city,” and “a temple.”  The Temple shown to Ezekiel has never been built.  Yet God’s word will be fulfilled (Isa. 55:11).  Ezekiel’s Temple measures 210 feet high.  The technology for such high rise building did not exist in his day. 

Ezekiel 20:40-44  “All the house of Israel” - “all of them in the land” will serve the LORD GOD “on My holy mountain” (v.40).  “I will accept you as a sweet aroma” (v.41). “I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles” (v.41).  

    NOTE: The “Gentiles” will be “the nations” - raised to life at The 8th Day.  These are the “rest of the dead” who “lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Rev. 20:5).

    NOTE: The words in this passage - “sweet aroma” - refer to the aroma of a sacrificial offering, burning on the .  Thru Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers - forty times - the words “sweet aroma” refer to the smell from something sacrificed. When the LORD says, “I will accept you as a sweet aroma,” - what does He mean?   Isaiah speaks of “all your brethren” brought to the Lord “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD” (Isa. 66:20-22).  In these passages, living persons are presented to the LORD “as an offering.”

    Amos 9:11-12 “‘On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ Says the LORD who does this thing.”

    NOTE: The name translated as “Edom” can just as reasonably be translated “Adam” - meaning mankind.  The remnant of mankind will come to God through Christ, the legal heir to the “House of David”. 

Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-2 speak of "the House of the God of Jacob", and tell of Gentiles going up to that "House" to learn the ways of the LORD. 

Jackson,  I clearly realize that this scenario does NOT fit perfectly with what Ellen White wrote.  But - if you look ONLY at what the Scriptures have to say, this scenario fits very well.  I believe that the early Advent pioneers filled in a lot of prophecy, with what they THOUGHT was correct.  I know you think I am doing them same.  Those who are absolutely committed to EGW, will side with your beliefs, and those who are open to another interpretation will probably give my posts a read. 

Blessings,  Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

What's wrong with serial judgments anyway?  

Were not Enoch, Moses, and Elijah "judged" worthy before they were taken to heaven?  What about those serving as the 24 elders?  Were they not also "judged" worthy.   I doubt any of these individuals believe they are still "on probation".  

Just a note:  King David divided the priesthood into 24 "courses".  The took turns serving by clans, at the Temple, through the year.  So it is probable that there are many more than just 24 of those elders who are serving before the throne of God in Heaven.  It's probably 24 courses. 

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, be careful not to let what you think is "unthinkable" determine your understanding of scripture. Let the Bible be your guide.

1 Cor 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 
 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 

The word judge, can mean governing, as in "judging the tribes of Israel".  It would equate with "reigning".   

2Kings 15:5  "And Jotham the king's son was over the house, judging the people of the land." (KJV)

NKJ Judges 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. (Jdg 4:4 NKJ)  "Judging" here would mean deciding cases, and mediating disputes.

^{Isaiah 16:5 "In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."}

Isa 16:5 is obviously AFTER the Second Coming, during Christ's reign on earth as KING.  He will be "judging".   But judging whom?  If those first resurrected have already been judged, then who is left to be "judged"?  The "nations" ??  

The 24 elders say "you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on earth." (Rev 5:10 NRS).   Who do they reign over?  Who do they judge? 

Everyone from the FIRST resurrection is made a "priest of God and of Christ".  But who do they serve - as priests?  Could it be "the nations" ??

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

 

[BobRyan]

I noticed that the word translated "cleansed" in Dan 8:14 is NOT the word usually translated "cleansed". 

Daniel 8:14 “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (KJV)  "cleansed" - 06663 צָדַק tsadaq {tsaw-dak'}

Daniel 8:14 is the ONLY place in Scripture where the word tsadaq is translated as “cleansed”.  Strong's gives the definition as “justified’ or “vindicated” or “set right”.  

So - After the 2300 evening/mornings HEAVEN (the true Tabernacle) would be vindicated.  

 A different word is used when the priest makes atonement for a person, so he could be cleansed. 

Numbers 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." KJV

"cleansed" =  03722 rp;K' kaphar {kaw-far'} Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation,

It really puts a whole new slant on Daniel 8:14.    At what point, or at what event, is (or was) heaven vindicated ? 

OR If the word means "set right" then is this pointing to the House of God being restored to it's rightful state?

Also the word "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14 is in the PERFECT tense, meaning the "cleansing" is complete at the end of 2300 evening/mornings. 

Rev 13 makes it clear that the saints are represented as in heaven and attack/assault on the saints that we see in Dan 7 is assault accusation against the Sanctuary.

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

 

Rev 3

¹¹ I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

 

The purpose of the IJ is to answer questions - doubts, accusations, define who is a real saved saint and who is merely an imposter. To do it in an objective fashion based on  evidence that appeals to a free will universe -- not an arbitrary decree but a judgment that is based on observed facts ... in books.

 

The future judgment - future to Paul is described this way 'We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body"

 

What's wrong with serial judgments anyway?  

The Daniel 7 and Rev 14 judgment is the same - it determines who are the saved saints.- that results in separating the sheep from the goats Matt 25.

there is another judgment described in 1Cor 6, and Rev 20:1-4 and Rev 2 - where the wicked are judged.

[8thdaypriest]

Bob Ryan said, "The future judgment - future to Paul is described this way 'We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body.'"

Bob, WHEN do you see each one of us standing "before the judgment seat of Christ" ?   Do we stand there each time we say a prayer asking for forgiveness?  Will we stand there at the Second Coming?  Do we stand there at the moment when our name is being considered during the "Investigative Judgment" that you believe is going on now? 

Thanks for your answer.

[JoeMo]

All of us will sooner or later stand before the judgement seat. I don't know what that will look like.  For some, they will indeed all stand; but they may be judged as a group - like the wicked remaining alive at the SC.  For some of the saved, it may be a "one-on One" meeting with Jesus where He shows us what our earthly shortcomings were; and how He forgave and covered us in His blood for every one of those shortcomings because we never gave up on trusting Him; on loving Him.  We will see our total unworthiness and Jesus' total worthiness; and confess that indeed; "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain!"

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan said, "The future judgment - future to Paul is described this way 'We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body.'"

Bob, WHEN do you see each one of us standing "before the judgment seat of Christ" ?   Do we stand there each time we say a prayer asking for forgiveness?  Will we stand there at the Second Coming?  Do we stand there at the moment when our name is being considered during the "Investigative Judgment" that you believe is going on now? 

Thanks for your answer.

In  both Daniel 7 and Rev 14 that judgment has to take place before the 2nd coming. In fact that judgment incomplete is the whole thing that allows persecution of the saints according to Daniel 7

[JoeMo]

I think the most important thing to remember is that we will all be judged whether it is now, at the SC, or at the end of the 1,000 years.  Some of us will be judged "righteous" because we are covered with a garment washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ.  None of us will be judged righteous by anything we did or didn't do.  I hope to be in the first group; but only by the grace of God.

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, you are contradicting yourself.  In the thread titled "One of the Historical markers of the 70 weeks of Daniel" on page 2 ,your post dated 27 April had you saying the following:"I'm with Joe on the 70th week. I believe that last week will be the last 7 years of this age"

Now you are saying the 70th week when the most holy is anointed is at Jesus' resurrection.

Dan 9 is clear, "the anointing of the most holy" takes place during the 70th week  for the Messiah does not come until the 70th week and of course he comes before His crucifixion. So the anointing of the most Holy is during the 70week, and that week cannot as you had previously said come at the close of this present age.

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

 

You're right Jackson.

Can I just say that I am not certain just WHEN the 70 weeks was/or will be fulfilled. 

The whole book was to be sealed until "the time of the end".  I do not personally believe that 1844 was "the time of the end".  I'm not sure we have entered that "time" yet - when all the prophecies will be perfectly understood. 

The anointing of the Most Holy (Place) could be Day of Atonement terminology.   Or it could be the fulfillment of the anointing (by Moses) TYPE - of the entire Tabernacle (including the MHP) when it was inaugurated.  You're saying that Jesus was "the most holy" - and He was anointed at His baptism - with the Spirit.  I just don't find the wording that clear.  

 

Rachel, please keep things in context. Paul is not speaking here about judgment meaning reigning or ruling over. He is speaking about taking people to court to receive a legal judgment. He is admonishing his fellow Christians to not take legal matters between the saints to a worldly court.

 

 

 

! Cor  6:1         Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 

 

 

 

Paul says why go to the world (unsaved) for a judgment when you ,the saints, will be passing judgment on the world (the unsaved).

 

 

 

This meaning of  the term 'judge" is further put in context  by Paul mentioning the saints as "judging angels". Now , we know the angels in question are fallen angels and  are going to be judged for punishment and are not to be subsequently "governed" or "reigned over" by the  saints as you suggest. In fact, Jude clarifies this very manner of judgment.

 

 

 

Jude     1:6       And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

 

 

Rachel, the Bible is quite clear on this subject, Jesus and the saints will be judging the unsaved of both men and angels prior to the execution of their punishment after the 1,000 years.

 

 

 

 

 

If you think it is still "unthinkable' that the unsaved and angels will be judged for the severity of their punishment based upon their deeds, then please read again what scripture says on this subject:

 

 

 

 

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].   12:48           But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

 

 

Not only do the above verses show that there will be degrees of punishment  but that the "uniformed' are not held guiltless as you often plead. Perhaps they are not so "uniformed" as you might imagine.

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Thanks for you input. 

[pnattmbtc]

stinsonmarri,

Obviously - I READ your long post.  I was just trying to help you - at this forum.  Folks don't tend to read LONG posts in small print.  That's all.

I actually find your posts more difficult to read (although I enjoy reading them) because of the (to my point of view) excessive underlining, all caps, in bold, etc.  All of that I find difficult to read and distracting.  It would be much easier for me to read if you emphasized what you wanted emphasized by the words you use and how you construct your sentences.

I'm commenting because you commented on posts which, although long, I found easy to read, because the formatting wasn't messed up, and, if there's any chance you will change how you post things (which I doubt, because people seem to be married to their posting style), I would really appreciate it, because I enjoy reading your posts.