Moderators Bravus Posted March 17, 2016 Moderators Posted March 17, 2016 The question is not whether I am right or wrong, it is about what has been demonstrated with evidence and argued for, rather than just assumed. Knowledge can be defined as 'justified true belief'. Something can be true but not have been justified... and without the justification - the evidence and argument - we have not tested whether or not it is true. *If* homosexuality is wrong, *then* arguments that assume that are valid. But if the arguments used to establish that homosexuality is wrong assume that that is the case before it has been established, they are circular arguments, and not logically valid. It is true that the moon orbits the earth, but if I use an argument to establish that that already assumes what it sets out to prove, that is a circular argument. This is a matter of logic, not one of theology. Being right (or righteous) doesn't make bad logic good. Quote Truth is important
CoAspen Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 56 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said: Use your words. Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 17, 2016 Moderators Posted March 17, 2016 Green: I am limiting my comment solely to the circular reasoning issue. The evidence lies openly in Jackson's comment. No further production of evidence is needed. If you do not agree: Fine. That is your right. We can disagree. As to: "assumption of sin:" The comment was made in the context of communication, language and persuasion. It was not made in the conter4xt of Biblical theology--at least not that part of it. Therefore to comment on circular reasoning should not carry with it any assumption of sin. Quote Gregory
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 17, 2016 Moderators Posted March 17, 2016 By the way, there is nothing wrong in having assumptions. We all have assumptions. It is O. K. for Jackson to have an assumption of sin. If so, recognize it and acknowledge it. When appropriate recognize that one may, due to the assumptions on has, engage in circular reasoning. Quote Gregory
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 17, 2016 Members Posted March 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Kevin(wrx) said: Read the entire chapter again. Truth is not subjective and Romans 14 does not prove otherwise. Liking that post would be embarrassing LOL .... my posts are not written for you to "like"... Tom Wetmore 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 17, 2016 Members Posted March 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said: I can't "like" what is contrary to scripture. Although you did quote Scripture you twisted the context and meaning to suit your "cheap grace" theology. you mean, you can't "like" what is contrary to *your* interpretation of scripture... that's fine (though you actually have no idea what my interpretations of scripture might be, nor do you have any right to label mine as "cheap grace"...) GayatfootofCross and CoAspen 2 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 17, 2016 Administrators Posted March 17, 2016 Strange how one can be so convinced in their own mind that they assume that all are wrong who reach a different conviction in their own mind too. I have carefully read the whole chapter 14 of Romans numerous times, and I do not see Pam's conclusion from it as being out of harmony with its obvious importance and meaning. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 17, 2016 Administrators Posted March 17, 2016 I am not sure what you are trying to say that I meant or how I understood the chapter. But I do think that you are making unwarranted assumptions about me and how I understand it and what I was saying above in the context of this discussion. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 17, 2016 Administrators Posted March 17, 2016 Did either Pam or I say it was promoting subjective truth? Those are your words. Your own words expressing one of the unwarranted assumptions to which I referred. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Moderators Bravus Posted March 17, 2016 Moderators Posted March 17, 2016 Romans 14: is the objective truth that it is right to eat food offered to idols? Quote Truth is important
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 18, 2016 Members Posted March 18, 2016 **sigh** I only mentioned Rom. 14, because of the the phrase, "be convinced in your own mind".... I never said that Rom. 14 dealt in specifics with homosexuality, or anything else. You've consistently ignored the rest of what I wrote — for what reason, I can only guess. Good day. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 1 minute ago, Kevin(wrx) said: I'm convinced the Bible is true and is clear on who can get married and what is otherwise sin. I'm convinced of only 1 objective truth. We are not saved by grace through what we know but calling yourself a Christian carries some responsibilities with it. Lets break this down to simplify. Only one man and one women can get married and have sex and any other possible combination is sin. If we agree there then we're good. Then don't marry a gay man and you have done your christian duty according to your conscience. And God calls you to love and serve and bless those that disagree with your understanding of the Holy Bible at the same time! May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength.! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
bonnie Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 26 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said: Your making the assumption we can believe and act any way we chose and still be saved. Now your back to cheap grace. Sin is not what we decide it is and obedience is not subjective. The bible is beginning to sound like a buffet menu that you can go thru and sample and pick what pleases you.Leaving anything that doesn't please you on the tray Green Cochoa and phkrause 2 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said: 11 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said: Gay, do you believe sex outside of marriage is fornication? Is fornication an ok activity for a professed Christian? Your making the assumption we can believe and act any way we chose and still be saved. Now your back to cheap grace. Sin is not what we decide it is and obedience is not subjective. Many disagree on the understanding of scriptures since time began. It comes down to how we see God. And the underlying basic understanding of what sin is Anything outside of Not Loving GOD with your all and seeing Others as Priceless as God love for self. Esteeming each other highe than self That is the REAL def. of sin Brought out by the two great commands that JESUS echoed across time and Moses presented as a Promise for The Children OF Israe. Even being thinking u r right is a dreadful thing when absent of selfless sacrificial love as presented on the CROSS I have shared this and I think it goes over heads. I have a number of threads u can look up regarding Priceless GRACE towards all sinners. Esp. The QUEER Sinners. (i can supply those threads upon request) What does one do when Society says you cannot marry?Or when the Church does not recognize your monogamous relationship? is the answer to your question God of Concessions have always been there in time when Straights Divorce without adultery. Or even marrying more than One when the IDEAL( non sin version )is presented at The Garden Of Eden. God wants us to reason together with HIM when it comes to the most private of decisions and hopefully with a BODY of CHRIST we are in relation/connected to. Purity of heart is Sainthood ...married or not. Heterosexuality is not Sainthood. ... We emphasize different things Kevin(wrx). A sign we have JESUS? I pray that to be true. May the JOY OF THE LORD BE YOUR STRENGTH! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 12 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: Now that's very well said!! I have never met a christian who does not cheery pic scriptures.. what to embrace and what to reject either in walk or talk or thought THE LIST IS LONG we are too short BTW Good to see you The Wanderer! I have taken some of your past counsel to heart. May the JOY of the Lord be your Strength! Tom Wetmore 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 uhh.. i think we are misunderstanding each other or its me misunderstanding I said i never seen anyone who does not cherry pick I can elaborate my thoughts on that but i think we are misunderstanding each other 4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: What's "wrong" with "cherry-picking" Scriptures my friend? If we go by that, and just call whatever we disagree with "cherry-picking," then where does that leave us! lol Thats called one step forward and two back, and you don't seem the type to do that!! Maybe you "cherry-picked" Neh 8:10 in your signature. Get my drift? I appreciate what you said re my past counsel. That's what it's all about. try to find something to build on. In my not so humble opinion. lol May the JOY OF THE LORD BE YOUR STRENGTH! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 im going to step away from this thread i knew gay twins so what it doesn't matter if its a choice or not also every (thousands upon thousands) gay i met says they did not choose it. My experience also! It is a mantle not easy to wear! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Moderators Bravus Posted March 18, 2016 Moderators Posted March 18, 2016 Interesting to note that the 'strong' in Romans 14 are those with the less-orthodox position, while the 'weak' are the more-orthodox. Tom Wetmore and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Truth is important
bonnie Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 Does this apply to the poster as well? Then don't marry a gay man and you have done your christian duty according to your conscience. And God calls you to love and serve and bless those that disagree with your understanding of the Holy Bible at the same time! May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength.! Live your life as you believe you should and love and serve those that disagree with you without the constant condemnation of everyone that opposes a gay lifestyle "It is a mantle not easy to wear! " Neither is the "mantle of being labeled unchristian or homophobic because one may actually believe the bible condemns such a llifestyle Kevin(wrx) 1 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 18, 2016 Members Posted March 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, bonnie said: Neither is the "mantle of being labeled unchristian or homophobic because one may actually believe the bible condemns such a llifestyle What is your definition of "lifestyle"? It is my belief that the Bible condemns having sexual relations between two men or two women. It does not condemn being being homosexual. If two men or two women are living together, how does one know if those individuals are having gay sex, other than they themselves telling you, or you viewing it yourself, in person? *Assuming* the worst of people isn't godly, in my opinion. I'm not naive. I know what the possibilities are behind closed doors. But it's not my business to be the investigator of sexual conduct between people. GayatfootofCross, Kevin(wrx), Tom Wetmore and 1 other 4 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators Bravus Posted March 18, 2016 Moderators Posted March 18, 2016 Just a side thought I had: why do we assume the angels in Sodom were male? Angels may well be sexless, since there is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven. We don't even know that they presented as male, I don't think. Tom Wetmore 1 Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted March 18, 2016 Moderators Posted March 18, 2016 'Cherry pick' may be an emotive way to put it, but there are 0 Christians who take every word of the Bible literally and live it all. None of them sacrifice animals, stone people to death for a wide range of offenses or exclude women from the workplace during their period. People will come back and say 'ceremonial law, only for Israel'... and those texts are right near the ones about homosexuality in Leviticus. It's the simple truth: no-one accepts 100% of the Bible at face value. Many will say 'yes, but *my* set of guidelines for choosing which bits I follow are Biblical, *yours* are just what you decide'... but that is itself a disputable matter. Tom Wetmore and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Truth is important
GayatfootofCross Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, David Geelan said: Just a side thought I had: why do we assume the angels in Sodom were male? Angels may well be sexless, since there is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven. We don't even know that they presented as male, I don't think. I did relish the the thought for three seconds then remembered... in Gen 18 it says Abraham saw three men after the meal the two went down to Sodom while Abraham begged for Sodom's People cause that is what LOVE DOES! If it didn't say three men ..we could have started a new Church with a very different narration of the events #a NEW revelation rudywoofs (Pam) and Bravus 2 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
bonnie Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 24 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: What is your definition of "lifestyle"? It is my belief that the Bible condemns having sexual relations between two men or two women. It does not condemn being being homosexual. If two men or two women are living together, how does one know if those individuals are having gay sex, other than they themselves telling you, or you viewing it yourself, in person? *Assuming* the worst of people isn't godly, in my opinion. I'm not naive. I know what the possibilities are behind closed doors. But it's not my business to be the investigator of sexual conduct between people. Not quite sure where this is coming from. I said nothing about two men or two women are living together, how does one know if those individuals are having gay sex, When it becomes an issue for me is when someone tells me(general) how unchristian it is to believe that homosexual activity is wrong. It was a general statement.But as for this....*Assuming* the worst of people isn't godly, in my opinion. What is it you have just done? A homosexual lifestyle usually includes sexual relations I have never condemned anyone for being a homosexual. You would be hard pressed to find that. I do resent the accusation that anyone that disagrees with homosexuality activity as unchristian does get tiresome Nor did I imply that anyone should investigate anyone's private life get tiresome Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 18, 2016 Members Posted March 18, 2016 Bonnie, that's why I asked what you considered to be a "lifestyle".... to clarify. Why is assuming the worst in someone ungodly? Did you think I was assuming the worst about you??? If so, that's not true. The rest of what I wrote was not a condemnation of you. It was merely my thoughts on the topic. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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