"Twin Studies and Homosexuality"

[Robert]

In the meantime, while we are waiting for Christ's return, hopefully we are experiencing God's imparted righteousness. Therefore a mature Christian should be experiencing a life where sin is not practice.  Now, I did not say a life where there is no sin, but rather a life where sin in not justified and therefore practiced.

As to homosexuality there is no doubt that this perversion is related to our fallen human natures.  If one is predisposed to homosexuality the only remedy is to "walk in the Spirit" and not fulfill the lust of the flesh.  That means that a mature believer should not be endorsing homosexual marriage and sex. To endorse such is to justify sin or imperfection.  If we justify sin as a lifestyle then we are rejecting God's appraisal of sin through His law.  To reject the law's condemnation of these sins is to reject one's need of Christ righteousness, both imputed and imparted.

[LifeHiscost]

34 minutes ago, Robert said:

 "sin in the flesh" is sin and disqualifies you of heaven. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert said:

I'm entering this debate a bit late....

Temptation is not sin, but the mechanism in you, i.e., "sin in the flesh" is sin and disqualifies you of heaven. 

    There need to be teachers who are thoughtful, considerate

of

their own weakness and infirmities and sins, and who will not be oppressive and discourage

the

children and youth. There needs to be much praying, much faith, much forbearance and courage, which

the

Lord is ready to bestow. For God

sees

every trial, and a wonderful influence can be exerted by teachers, if they will practice

the

lessons which

Christ

has given them. But will these teachers consider their own wayward course, that they make very feeble efforts to learn in

the

school

of Christ

and practice Christlike meekness and lowliness

of

heart?

The

teachers should be themselves in obedience to Jesus

Christ

, and ever practicing his words, that they may exemplify

the character of

Jesus

Christ

to

the

students. Let your light shine in good works, in faithful watching and caring for

the

lambs

of the

flock, with patience, with tenderness, and

the

love

of

Jesus

Christ

in your own hearts.

{CE 154.1}

  

The true follower of Christ will make no boastful claims to holiness. It is by the law of God that the sinner is convicted. He sees his own sinfulness in contrast with the perfect righteousness which it enjoins, and this leads him to humility and repentance. He becomes reconciled to God through the blood of Christ, and as he continues to walk with Him he will be gaining a clearer sense of the holiness of God’s character and the far-reaching nature of His requirements. He will see more clearly his own defects and will feel the need of continual repentance and faith in the blood of Christ. {FW 53.4}

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Corinthians 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

[Bravus]

Quote

As to homosexuality there is no doubt that this perversion is related to our fallen human natures.

This is not a true statement as it stands. If revised to read 'I have no doubt' it may well be accurate. There are discussions ongoing on this forum right now, however, that demonstrate that there is considerable doubt, at least until the belief is placed on a far more secure Scriptural foundation than has so far been in evidence.

[CoAspen]

Homosexuality (from Ancient Greek ὁμός, meaning "same", and Latin sexus, meaning "sex") is romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender. 

When using the word it would be best for clarification in discussion as to which meaning is intended.

Cancer and other diseases are related to the fallen human nature and would not be considered as making a  person perverted.

Still a lot of dodging going on, as always happens.....Would be nice to read some direct answers to DG original postings.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Quote

In the context of this forum then, and the OP, how would you suggest we decide whats right or wrong?

 

If in this forum people decide to discuss what is right and what is wrong, I would expect that the basis of that discussion would lie in a Biblical understanding of what is right and wrong.

.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Quote

 That means that a mature believer should not be endorsing homosexual marriage and sex.

 

I am not certain as to exactly what you mean by endorsing homosexual marriage.

But, it is on Biblical grounds that I support laws that make it possible for homosexuals to marry persons of the same gender.

How is that position Biblical?  It is Biblical in that it is founded in the nature of God.    Back in Eden, God gave humanity the right to chose how their life would be lived.  I therefore believe that God gave homosexuals the right to chose whom they should marry.  I will and I  do support that right as a legal right in our society.

NOTE:  Do not expand my comment well beyond what I have said.

1)  Clergy should have and do have the right to chose whom they will provide marriage ceremonies for.

2)  I am not advocating a right to rape others--either children or adults.

3) I could name a lot of other things that I am not advocating.

 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, David Geelan said:

This is not a true statement as it stands. If revised to read 'I have no doubt' it may well be accurate. There are discussions ongoing on this forum right now, however, that demonstrate that there is considerable doubt, at least until the belief is placed on a far more secure Scriptural foundation than has so far been in evidence.

So you believe that God created men and women with homosexual tendencies and that it is natural?

[Robert]

1 hour ago, CoAspen said:

Cancer and other diseases are related to the fallen human nature and would not be considered as making a  person perverted.

I said that homosexuality is a perversion.  Cancer and other diseases are a result of the fall.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

 

I am not certain as to exactly what you mean by endorsing homosexual marriage.

But, it is on Biblical grounds that I support laws that make it possible for homosexuals to marry persons of the same gender.

How is that position Biblical?  It is Biblical in that it is founded in the nature of God.    Back in Eden, God gave humanity the right to chose how their life would be lived.  I therefore believe that God gave homosexuals t he right to chose whom they should marry. 

 

Yes, God created free-will beings made in His image and after His likeness,  but He also warned them that "“You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” (Gen 2:16,17)

So "yes" homosexuals can marry if they so desire, but they too can suffer the consequences of practicing this sin as a legitimate lifestyle.  According to Scriptures "Whoever practices sin is of the devil" (see 1 John 3:8).  Practicing sin and sinning are not the same.  I sin many times during the day because I have nature that enjoys sin.  It's not easy to "walk in the Spirit", after all human nature is very deceptive.  

The question is what do I do when God's Spirit convicts me of my sins - do I repent or do I justify my sins?  Do I admit to Christ my sins?  If not, then I'm taking the position that I'm not a sinner.  If I'm not a sinner then I don't need Christ's righteousness.  If I reject Christ then I must stand before God's law in my own righteousness, which is as filthy rags. 

So again, sure, the Christian who has homosexual tendencies may justify marrying another of his own gender, but in so doing he is following the dictates of his flesh.  To live for the flesh as a lifestyle if very dangerous (see Romans 8:5-8).  In fact it will eventually lead to apostasy. 

[Robert]

5 minutes ago, Robert said:

"Whoever practices sin is of the devil" (see 1 John 3:8).

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh....

We are not under law because we sin and are imperfect, fallen children thanks to father Adam.  But, at the same time, just because we have delivered from under law we are not to use this as an excuse to live for the flesh as a legitimate lifestyle. 

Instead, Paul admonishes us to "walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 

God's Spirit is not going to lead us to enjoy sin, even though in reality we are falling short of God's agape.  

To live for the flesh as a lifestyle is to practice sin.  

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

[Bravus]

52 minutes ago, Robert said:

So you believe that God created men and women with homosexual tendencies and that it is natural?

I have not advanced that view, since I don't think that we are at that point in the discussion yet. 

I am seeking to carefully, thoughtfully discover what the Bible actually says and means about homosexuality. I'm not willing to simply speculate beyond that evidence base until it has been established. 

[Bravus]

Quote

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Doesn't 'contentions' just mean fighting and arguing? Are those fighting and arguing in these discussions guilty of this, and therefore not able to inherit the kingdom of God?

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We all need a Saviour, none of us can earn heaven in our own right. That does not mean we continue in known sin - the process of sanctification proceeds. But anyone who claims to be living in sinless perfection right now is not spending enough time looking into the mirror of the Word to recognise his/her remaining pockets of sin.

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

I have not advanced that view, since I don't think that we are at that point in the discussion yet. 

I am seeking to carefully, thoughtfully discover what the Bible actually says and means about homosexuality. I'm not willing to simply speculate beyond that evidence base until it has been established. 

Look, I don't desire to pick on homosexuals.  Heterosexuals have problems too....Fornication, for example.  Adultery....

[Robert]

11 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Doesn't 'contentions' just mean fighting and arguing? Are those fighting and arguing in these discussions guilty of this, and therefore not able to inherit the kingdom of God?

David, apparently you glossed over my responses.  Sinning isn't the issue.  We are all guilty of sin.  Its what we do, when convicted of sin, that makes the difference.  This is not to say we shouldn't strive to walk by the Spirit and hence not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

[Robert]

14 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We all need a Saviour, none of us can earn heaven in our own right. That does not mean we continue in known sin - the process of sanctification proceeds. But anyone who claims to be living in sinless perfection right now is not spending enough time looking into the mirror of the Word to recognise his/her remaining pockets of sin.

I agree....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

7 minutes ago, Robert said:

  Sinning isn't the issue.  We are all guilty of sin.  Its what we do, when convicted of sin, that makes the difference.  

That's been my whole point. 

And who does the convicting?  It's not me nor anybody else...it's the work of the Holy Spirit.  I really don't understand why so many feel they need to do His work.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The Holy Spirit works through our fellow human beings quite a bit. Thats pretty basic. I would be interested to see an example from you, taken from this topic, where someone has done this.

Where someone has done what???

It really truly is not anyone's job to CONVICT someone of their sins.  

[CoAspen]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

I said that homosexuality is a perversion.  Cancer and other diseases are a result of the fall.

You also said homosexuality is a result of the fall....if that is a perversion why not cancer, etc?

You failed to define how you are using the word  'homosexuality' .......is it being a homosexual, having tendencies or sexual activity?? Which are you calling a perversion?

[Robert]

27 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

You also said homosexuality is a result of the fall....if that is a perversion why not cancer, etc?

You failed to define how you are using the word  'homosexuality' .......is it being a homosexual, having tendencies or sexual activity?? Which are you calling a perversion?

Homosexuality is a product of the fall. It is not how God designed the human race. These tendencies come from one's human nature as does the sexual activity. Human nature is the problem. 

[Bravus]

6 minutes ago, Robert said:

Homosexuality is a product of the fall. It is not how God designed the human race. These tendencies come from one's human nature as does the sexual activity. Human nature is the problem. 

Evidence, not just assertion, please.

[Robert]

1 minute ago, David Geelan said:

Evidence, not just assertion, please.

Matt 19:4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

[Robert]

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 

Again, here the Bible is speaking of practicing sin as a lifestyle.

[Bravus]

If providing evidence for our assertions is not required, then I can simply assert that God created homosexual people and is totally cool with them and wants them to be married and happy, and there's nothing anyone can say to the contrary.

If we abandon evidence, nothing means anything: and certainly no-one can be told they are incorrect about anything.

[Bravus]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 

Again, here the Bible is speaking of practicing sin as a lifestyle.

How many times do I need to make this point before it's understood? You have *assumed* that 'sexual immorality' means 'homosexuality', when that has not yet been established!

[Robert]

16 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

How many times do I need to make this point before it's understood? You have *assumed* that 'sexual immorality' means 'homosexuality', when that has not yet been established!

Romans chapter 1 speaks of those who know of God, but have rejected Him.  What's their problem? "They know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (verse 32) 

What's the reason God abandons sinners to their own vile passions?

Because they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (verse 18) and they "exchanged the truth of God (see verse 20) for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (verse 25)

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions.

For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful....