Col 2:16,17

[Robert]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 

17 Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ.

 

This is one of the main Scriptural arguments used by some Christian to prove that the Sabbath is meaningless this side of the cross. 

 

 

Here's my counter:

 

 

Notice the following list that Paul terms "a shadow":  

1] Meats

2] drinks  

3] holy day

4] new moon  

5] Sabbath days (plural)

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

1] Meats 

2] Drinks

Lev 23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 

[Robert]

3] holy day

Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth  day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 

[Robert]

4] new moon

Ps 81:1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob. 2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery. 3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. 

[Robert]

5] Sabbath days (plural - not day)

Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. 

In fact if you read the context you will realize that the Jews had many sabbaths.  These pointed to Christ's future work.  They were ceremonial.  

Conclusion:

Paul is referencing the ceremonial laws on meat and drink sacrifices; holy convocations; new moons and sabbaths.  

[Robert]

Paul is referencing the ceremonial laws on meat and drink sacrifices; holy convocations; new moons and sabbaths.  

Paul is not telling the NT Christian that the 7th-day Sabbath from the moral law is a shadow.  After all the Sabbath of creation existed before the entrance of sin.  And the Sabbath as connected to gospel, the seal of justification by faith, is also not a shadow. In fact it points to the day when God rested from His perfect redemption of the human race in His Son Jesus Christ. See Hebrews chapter 4. 

The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith.

Heb 4:9 "There remains a Sabbath-keeping for God's people. 10 For the one who has entered God's rest also rests from his own works, as God did from his."

What type of Sabbath keeping remains?  

 The one connected not so much to the law, but rather the gospel.  Yes, the law points to redemption (see Deut 5:15), but Paul is linking the Sabbath to God's rest, which was His work of redemption "in Christ Jesus".

So the believer who has accepted the gospel (compare to Heb 4:2,3) also, in addition to accepting it, "rests" from his works just as God did from His work "in Christ"!

What's the implication?

God's work "in Christ" was perfect and complete. That's why He rested.

For the believer to rest as God rested means that outward, by keeping the Sabbath, he is stating that I am complete "in Christ" and I can add nothing to God's work "in Christ".  Hence it is a sign of justification by faith. 

The Sabbath, properly understood, is anything but legalistic. In fact not to keep it is a sign of legalism. 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Robert

[brotherly love]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 

17 Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ.

 

This is one of the main Scriptural arguments used by some Christian to prove that the Sabbath is meaningless this side of the cross. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To make the statement that the sabbath is meaningless on this side of the cross by some Christians is a general misrepresentation. I believe this is true on both sides of the debate. The meaning gets lost on a tug of war over a day-not the substance of the sabbath. My eye opening on this subject came from an unlikely source. A Torah only Jewess (no Talmud) who found Jesus. She wiped the floor clean with me even though she observed sun down to sundown to Sat night. It took some time since I believed that those who did not observe Sat. would one day be out to kill me.

You claim....

"The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith."

Nope, Baptism is the sign of the new Covenent. If your words are true, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church

[pnattmbtc]

Nope, Baptism is the sign of the new Covenent. If your words are true, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church

This is rather cryptic. 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 

17 Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ

This is one of the main Scriptural arguments used by some Christian to prove that the Sabbath is meaningless this side of the cross. 

 

Here's my counter:

 

 

Notice the following list that Paul terms "a shadow":  

1] Meats

2] drinks  

3] holy day

4] new moon  

5] Sabbath days (plural)

 

Certainly it is true that in Col 2 - Paul is not calling a halt to "eating and drinking"

[BobRyan]

To make the statement that the sabbath is meaningless on this side of the cross by some Christians is a general misrepresentation. I believe this is true on both sides of the debate. The meaning gets lost on a tug of war over a day-not the substance of the sabbath. My eye opening on this subject came from an unlikely source. A Torah only Jewess (no Talmud) who found Jesus. She wiped the floor clean with me even though she observed sun down to sundown to Sat night. It took some time since I believed that those who did not observe Sat. would one day be out to kill me.

You claim....

"The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith."

Nope, Baptism is the sign of the new Covenent. If your words are true, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church

The Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant - because when you read the New Covenant it has the "LAW of God written on the heart and mind" Heb 8, Jer 31:31-33

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

[BobRyan]

To make the statement that the sabbath is meaningless on this side of the cross by some Christians is a general misrepresentation. I believe this is true on both sides of the debate. The meaning gets lost on a tug of war over a day-not the substance of the sabbath. My eye opening on this subject came from an unlikely source. A Torah only Jewess (no Talmud) who found Jesus. She wiped the floor clean with me even though she observed sun down to sundown to Sat night. It took some time since I believed that those who did not observe Sat. would one day be out to kill me.

You claim....

"The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith."

Nope, Baptism is the sign of the new Covenent. If your words are true, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church

 

Ex 16 "Tomorrow is THE Sabbath"

No manna on Sabbath in the desert -- not paying attention to "the day" was going to cost the people of God a lesson in hunger. 

 

I say that because in the "big picture" -- the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the CCC, and current leaders like R.C Sproul, Andy Stanley - and even older ones like C.H. Spurgeon and D.L. Moody -- they all argue in favor of the Sabbath Commandment still binding on the saints - but they like to think of it as "editable" - pointing it to week day 1 as needed.

[8thdaypriest]

    Isaiah 66:22-23 “‘For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,’ says the LORD, ‘So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD.”

Interesting, that Isaiah says "all flesh" will come before the LORD to worship him, at the New Moon.  And the Sabbaths mentioned - could just as easily be the LORD's "appointed times".  The test does not say these are all 7th day Sabbaths.  The Sabbath of the 7th Day was just ONE of the LORD's "appointed times". 

[brotherly love]

The Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant - because when you read the New Covenant it has the "LAW of God written on the heart and mind" Heb 8, Jer 31:31-33

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Ironic that most will claim the Law of God still implies, but then deny we are in the Kingdom of the Messiah and actually wait for a future kingdom instead of a final consummation of the kingdom.

A kingdom cant exist without laws, so I agree, keeping the laws of the kingdom are important

[8thdaypriest]

         Paul COULD be understood to say “let no one judge you regarding” [the WAY in which you keep] “a festival . . . or sabbaths.”  

             Special offerings of animal sacrifices were commanded for each of the feast (festival) days, for the new moons, and for the seventh-day Sabbath.  The new Gentile believers would not be keeping these days in the old way.   The Gentile converts  partook of bread and wine at Passover, rather than of a sacrificial lamb.  They did not bring animals for sacrifice on any festival day.  They may not have appeared at the Temple in Jerusalem, for the Feasts, believing that Christ now ministered in heaven (the true Tabernacle not made with hands).  Physical circumcision was not required for Gentile converts - but was an absolute requirement for inclusion in the Passover under the First Covenant.  And no uncircumcised male could enter the Temple court to offer sacrifice.  

I see Colossians 2:16-17, saying "let no one judge you" for not offering animal sacrifices, because God nailed the accusations against us, to Jesus cross.  

Here's a few translations: 

Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (KJV)

    Colossians 2:14 “. . . having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.  And He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” (NKJV)

    Colossians 2:14  “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;” (ASV)

    Colossians 2:14 “having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (NIV)

    Colossians 2:14 “having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” (NAS)

    Colossians 2:14 “erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross” (NRSV).

The NAS is my favorite. 

Here's a link to a study on Colossians 2:14 at my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/40fba-A Debt Paid.pdf

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[brotherly love]

This is rather cryptic. 

Not cryptic, but an observation. The early church all the way up to today has never seen the sabbath the same as we do, if this is a salvic issue of a beast, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church despite the words of Jesus that clearly state otherwise.

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by brotherly love

[Robert]

You claim....

"The Sabbath is part of the New Covenant in that it is a sign or seal of justification by faith."

Nope, Baptism is the sign of the new Covenent. If your words are true, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church

Baptism is a symbol of our death and resurrection "in Christ" Going under the water is a symbol of our death to "the old life".  Our coming up out of the water is a symbol of our future resurrection and newness of life.

The Sabbath of redemption points to the day when God the Father rested from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus".  That work is complete and therefore you can't add to that perfect work through merit of any kind.  Hence it is a sign of justification by faith.  

Baptism is not a sign of justification by faith. Baptism is a sign of our death in Christ and our resurrection in newness of life.

[BobRyan]

    Isaiah 66:22-23 “‘For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,’ says the LORD, ‘So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD.”

Interesting, that Isaiah says "all flesh" will come before the LORD to worship him, at the New Moon.  And the Sabbaths mentioned - could just as easily be the LORD's "appointed times".  The test does not say these are all 7th day Sabbaths.  The Sabbath of the 7th Day was just ONE of the LORD's "appointed times". 

"It is just the 7th day Sabbath" because the New Moon Sabbath is mentioned by contrast "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" only works with the 7th day Sabbath as the cyclic companion to the monthly Sabbath.

[BobRyan]

         Paul COULD be understood to say “let no one judge you regarding” [the WAY in which you keep] “a festival . . . or sabbaths.”  

             Special offerings of animal sacrifices were commanded for each of the feast (festival) days, for the new moons, and for the seventh-day Sabbath.  The new Gentile believers would not be keeping these days in the old way.   The Gentile converts  partook of bread and wine at Passover, rather than of a sacrificial lamb.  They did not bring animals for sacrifice on any festival day.  They may not have appeared at the Temple in Jerusalem, for the Feasts, believing that Christ now ministered in heaven (the true Tabernacle not made with hands).  Physical circumcision was not required for Gentile converts - but was an absolute requirement for inclusion in the Passover under the First Covenant.  And no uncircumcised male could enter the Temple court to offer sacrifice.  

I see Colossians 2:16-17, saying "let no one judge you" for not offering animal sacrifices, because God nailed the accusations against us, to Jesus cross.  

Here's a few translations: 

Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (KJV)

    Colossians 2:14 “. . . having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.  And He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” (NKJV)

    Colossians 2:14  “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;” (ASV)

    Colossians 2:14 “having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (NIV)

    Colossians 2:14 “having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” (NAS)

    Colossians 2:14 “erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross” (NRSV).

The NAS is my favorite. 

Here's a link to a study on Colossians 2:14 at my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/40fba-A Debt Paid.pdf

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

I agree that the NASB is perfect for Col 2 it points out that it is  our debt of sin that is nailed to the cross instead of God's Law.

[8thdaypriest]

"It is just the 7th day Sabbath" because the New Moon Sabbath is mentioned by contrast "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" only works with the 7th day Sabbath as the cyclic companion to the monthly Sabbath.

Can't agree with you interpretation Ryan.  Zechariah 14 has those "who are left" going up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.  And that's AFTER the "healing stream" flows from Ezekiel's Temple (Zech 14:8, Ezek 47:1-12).

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (Zec 14:1 NKJ)

[BobRyan]

Zech 9 says that at his first coming - when Christ rides on the donkey into Jerusalem - he also rules the earth - from sea to shining sea.

But in Is 66:23 we have a clear reference to the "New Heavens and New Earth" and we see that both the weekly Sabbath and the monthly new moon Sabbath are kept "by all mankind" forever.

The animal-sacrifice initiated annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 are no longer kept "he takes away the first to establish the second" Heb 10 --- and were never commanded for gentiles.

[pnattmbtc]

Not cryptic, but an observation. The early church all the way up to today has never seen the sabbath the same as we do, if this is a salvic issue of a beast, then the gates of hell have prevailed over the church despite the words of Jesus that clearly state otherwise.

Still cryptic, but getting less so.  Why do you conclude the gates of hell have prevailed over the church?  Because why?  Because we see an issue differently than it used to be seen looks to be what you're saying.  Even if what you're assuming were the case, why would your conclusion follow?  To be clear, what is your assumption? (i.e., what is the condition which, if it is fulfilled, means "the gates of hell have prevailed over the church").  And what is the basis for your conclusion? (i.e. why do you conclude the gates of hell have prevailed). 

[pnattmbtc]

Baptism is a symbol of our death and resurrection "in Christ" Going under the water is a symbol of our death to "the old life".  Our coming up out of the water is a symbol of our future resurrection and newness of life.

The Sabbath of redemption points to the day when God the Father rested from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus".  That work is complete and therefore you can't add to that perfect work through merit of any kind.  Hence it is a sign of justification by faith.  

Baptism is not a sign of justification by faith. Baptism is a sign of our death in Christ and our resurrection in newness of life.

I like your Sabbath comments.  But baptism also seems like a symbol of justification by faith.  You write "baptism is a sign of our death in Christ and our resurrection in newness of life".  That sure sounds like justification by faith to me!

[brotherly love]

Baptism is a symbol of our death and resurrection "in Christ" Going under the water is a symbol of our death to "the old life".  Our coming up out of the water is a symbol of our future resurrection and newness of life.

The Sabbath of redemption points to the day when God the Father rested from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus".  That work is complete and therefore you can't add to that perfect work through merit of any kind.  Hence it is a sign of justification by faith.  

Baptism is not a sign of justification by faith. Baptism is a sign of our death in Christ and our resurrection in newness of life.

Baptism ultimately is an sign that a person identifies with Christ, it was a death sentence for many people in the past and present. It points to the holiness laws that death is inherent to us and separates us from God's presence, and this is still real and should not be ignored or embraced, but we are now covered by the living waters of Jesus.

What was the meaning and purpose behind a Sabbath "rest" are we copying God? Does God rest?

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Baptism ultimately is an sign that a person identifies with Christ, it was a death sentence for many people in the past and present. It points to the holiness laws that death is inherent to us and separates us from God's presence, and this is still real and should not be ignored or embraced, but we are now covered by the living waters of Jesus.

What was the meaning and purpose behind a Sabbath "rest" are we copying God? Does God rest?

 

 

 

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.