Col 2:16,17

[brotherly love]

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Then the message is that we copy God in His rest of doing nothing? So, God does nothing after building and creation sustains itself. This would be deism, and make creation a god itself.

I built a home, and after it was built I rested from the build, but then my work began in maintaining and sustaining the home

Edited August 4, 2015 by brotherly love

[pnattmbtc]

I'm having trouble following you here.  You asked if God rested, so I posted a verse which says He did.  And then you conclude:

Then the message is that we copy God in His rest of doing nothing? So, God does nothing after building and creation sustains itself. This would be deism, and make creation a god itself.

How do you arrive at a conclusion like this?  What principles are you using to interpret Scripture? 

[brotherly love]

I'm having trouble following you here.  You asked if God rested, so I posted a verse which says He did.  And then you conclude:

How do you arrive at a conclusion like this?  What principles are you using to interpret Scripture? 

The text says God rested from His work, it does not say that God does nothing after the fact. Bear with me, most debates around the sabbath revolve around a day, or resting, and not the reason. If the reason is not known, then it is meaningless

Edited August 4, 2015 by brotherly love

[pnattmbtc]

The text says God rested from His work, it does not say that God does nothing after the fact. Bear with me, most debates around the sabbath revolve around a day, or resting, and not the reason. If the reason is not known, then it is meaningless.

I think often the reason for resting is considered, as it is obvious that God didn't rest because He was tired.  Another issue that often comes up is God's blessing of the Sabbath, and the implications of that.

I agree completely that the reasons for these things are of utmost importance.  Not just for the Sabbath, but any theological question.  If the answer is, "just because" or "because God said so", this has important implications in regards to God's character. 

[brotherly love]

I think often the reason for resting is considered, as it is obvious that God didn't rest because He was tired.  Another issue that often comes up is God's blessing of the Sabbath, and the implications of that.

I agree completely that the reasons for these things are of utmost importance.  Not just for the Sabbath, but any theological question.  If the answer is, "just because" or "because God said so", this has important implications in regards to God's character. 

Since God built a home (Universe) and rested from the build, but continued to work sustaining the earth, then rest is not really the big picture. God building and  sustaining creation shows that He is in control and we are not in control. If we design and sustain our own universe, then we can make up the rules that go with that design

So we go on with our work week thinking we are in control like little gods of our own lives, then we have to put the brakes on and take our hands off the wheel and gas pedal. We need to give control to God.

The assembly of faith before the cross could not do this under the Pharaoh as their god and Master in control of their lives. God gives us our rights and freedoms, and little gods like materialism, consumerism and secularist moral relativism will enslave us like a Pharaoh.

We dont need to cannonize the Sabbath of the Old Testament, we need to understand it-unless you advocate stoning people and burnt offerings  The types and shadows of the old give way to a new heightened sabbath in which Jesus is our sabbath rest from the slavery of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

brotherly love:Since God built a home (Universe) and rested from the build, but continued to work sustaining the earth, then rest is not really the big picture. God building and  sustaining creation shows that He is in control and we are not in control. If we design and sustain our own universe, then we can make up the rules that go with that design

So we go on with our work week thinking we are in control like little gods of our own lives, then we have to put the brakes on and take our hands off the wheel and gas pedal. We need to give control to God.

Does God want control?  What would He do with the control?  Why would He want control?  Another paradigm would be cooperation.  Perhaps God, rather than controlling us, wants us to cooperate with him, of our own free will.

[brotherly love]

Does God want control?  What would He do with the control?  Why would He want control?  Another paradigm would be cooperation.  Perhaps God, rather than controlling us, wants us to cooperate with him, of our own free will.

If you want to resort to semantics and silliness, then this ceases to be an honest discussion

Edited August 5, 2015 by brotherly love

[pnattmbtc]

If you want to resort to semantics and silliness, then this ceases to be an honest discussion

You wrote we need to give control to God, that we are not in control, that there are rules and so forth.  What did you mean by all this?  Why do you think these questions are silly or semantics?  I'm not understanding your reaction.  What did you mean by speaking of needing to give control to God?

[8thdaypriest]

Zech 9 says that at his first coming - when Christ rides on the donkey into Jerusalem - he also rules the earth - from sea to shining sea.

But in Is 66:23 we have a clear reference to the "New Heavens and New Earth" and we see that both the weekly Sabbath and the monthly new moon Sabbath are kept "by all mankind" forever.

The animal-sacrifice initiated annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 are no longer kept "he takes away the first to establish the second" Heb 10 --- and were never commanded for gentiles.

There is a study at my website titled "The End of Sacrifices".  Here's the link:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/39-The End of Sacrifices.pdf

"He takes away the first" (atonement through animal sacrifice and the exclusive Levite/Aaronic priesthood), that He may establish the second (atonement through the blood of Jesus, offered through the Melchizedek priesthood).  The only thing specifically "changed" - was "the priesthood".  But if you change the priesthood, you also change the sacrifices.  That "change" does nothing to the LORD's "appointed times".  They are STILL His "appointed times".  Revelation says "the END is for an appointed time" - which means "the end" will come at one of those "appointed times".  I personally believe that "appointed time" will be the Day of Atonement.   

Zechariah 9 is looking forward to the first "coming" of Christ.  "Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey".  But Zech 9 does NOT set aside Zechariah 14.  

Jesus was Israel's anointed King - yes - back then, "but we DO NOT YET SEE all things put under Him".  He has not yet received the dominion.  So He is not yet reigning.  Just as David WAS the "anointed king" of Israel, but did not begin to reign for many years, so Christ was anointed, but has NOT YET RECEIVED His Kingdom. 

In Zechariah 14, v. 4  "In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives"  and "the Mount of Olives shall be split in two"   THAT didn't happen at the first advent.  THEN "in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem"  AND "the LORD shall be King over all the earth".  "The people shall dwell in it (the earth)' and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."  THOSE things did NOT happen at Jesus' first advent. 

14:12 is the Voice of God.  This is what happens to the wicked at the glorious return.    AFTER THAT:  People from the nations will be invited to come up to the Feast of Tabernacles.  Some folks say that people who survive the plagues (but are NOT YET the redeemed of God) will be invited to worship with redeemed Israel during the 7th millennium.  Others believe as I do, that those invited to attend the Feast of Tabernacles, will be "the rest of the dead" who do not come to life, until AFTER the 7th millennium. 

Here's a link to "The 8th Day - Messiah Reigns" at my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/21-The 8th Day.pdf

Shalom,  Rachel Cory

[brotherly love]

You wrote we need to give control to God, that we are not in control, that there are rules and so forth.  What did you mean by all this?  Why do you think these questions are silly or semantics?  I'm not understanding your reaction.  What did you mean by speaking of needing to give control to God?

To me, it seemed like you were taking my words to the literal breaking point.

I will use an analogy.

If you have kids, you are in control. This does not mean you want pre-programmed robots. It would be nice at times, but there would be no choice, and no love. When your kids believe they are in control, then defiance takes place. 

In the same manner, God is in control-He is our Heavenly Father and sustains the universe. So, we go on for 6 days a week and believe we are in control. One day a week, we have to take our hands off the steering wheel, keys out of the ignition and acknowledge God is in control.

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by brotherly love

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  There are different paradigms involved.  I react against the "God is in control" idea, in general, because it is often used to mean that God is responsible for things I don't think He is responsible for.  The way you are using it, sounds to me like "God is the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe" and we should acknowledge this.

[brotherly love]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  There are different paradigms involved.  I react against the "God is in control" idea, in general, because it is often used to mean that God is responsible for things I don't think He is responsible for.  The way you are using it, sounds to me like "God is the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe" and we should acknowledge this.

How about authority. Everyday we think we go along thinking we are our own authority, and then we have to take the hands of the wheel and apply the brakes and give God the authority.

To say that God is in control over things he is not responsible for is not really the point.

[pnattmbtc]

How about authority. Everyday we think we go along thinking we are our own authority, and then we have to take the hands of the wheel and apply the brakes and give God the authority.

To say that God is in control over things he is not responsible for is not really the point.

I don't really like "authority" either.  Could well just be semantics though.  How I think is that God doesn't, in general, want to tell us "do this" or "do that", but wants us to have values/ethics/paradigms which are in harmony with His, so that the things that we want to do are things He would want us to do.

But if I'm hearing you correctly, you may simply be saying that we neglect to pay attention, so we just go about doing our own things, without heed to God.  We need to pay attention to the Holy Spirit.  Is this along the lines of your thought?

To be clear, the reason I'm not fond of "authority" or "control" is because there are paradigms which emphasize God's sovereignty, with the idea of "God's way or the highway", and I don't think this jibes with how God views things.  I'm not saying this is your idea, but this an idea some have, and they use words like "control" or "authority" to express their idea.

[brotherly love]

I don't really like "authority" either.  Could well just be semantics though.  How I think is that God doesn't, in general, want to tell us "do this" or "do that", but wants us to have values/ethics/paradigms which are in harmony with His, so that the things that we want to do are things He would want us to do.

But if I'm hearing you correctly, you may simply be saying that we neglect to pay attention, so we just go about doing our own things, without heed to God.  We need to pay attention to the Holy Spirit.  Is this along the lines of your thought?

 

The part in which i highlighted would fit a person in control or authority. When we think we are in control or are our own authority then we run amok.

I make my own paycheque, I build an empire, I set myself up financially, I am my own wisdom.....everything needs to give God glory. We can have the Holy Spirit, but we can also manipulate things with our own reason. many people with the Holy Spirit can go off course. It does not have to be my way or the highway. King David was a Spirit filled man, and he went astray, and god never sent him down the road packing

[BobRyan]

"It is just the 7th day Sabbath" because the New Moon Sabbath is mentioned by contrast "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" only works with the 7th day Sabbath as the cyclic companion to the monthly Sabbath.

    Isaiah 66:22-23 “‘For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,’ says the LORD, ‘So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD.”

Interesting, that Isaiah says "all flesh" will come before the LORD to worship him, at the New Moon.  And the Sabbaths mentioned - could just as easily be the LORD's "appointed times".  The test does not say these are all 7th day Sabbaths.  The Sabbath of the 7th Day was just ONE of the LORD's "appointed times". 

NASB - "All mankind" will come before Me to worship

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind"

The monthly cycle Sabbath "new Moon to New Moon" AND the weekly cycle Sabbath "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -

Since as Heb 10 points out regarding animal sacrifice feasts/celebrations "he takes away the first to establish the second

 

There is a study at my website titled "The End of Sacrifices".  Here's the link:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/39-The End of Sacrifices.pdf

"He takes away the first" (atonement through animal sacrifice and the exclusive Levite/Aaronic priesthood), that He may establish the second (atonement through the blood of Jesus, offered through the Melchizedek priesthood).  The only thing specifically "changed" - was "the priesthood".  But if you change the priesthood, you also change the sacrifices.  That "change" does nothing to the LORD's "appointed times".  They are STILL His "appointed times".  Revelation says "the END is for an appointed time" - which means "the end" will come at one of those "appointed times".  I personally believe that "appointed time" will be the Day of Atonement.   

 

The problem with that suggestion is that there is no way defined in the Bible for keeping the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths "without a sacrifice" - the very core of the feast/Sabbath is removed. For example Day of Atonement - with no  sacrifice at all - you "do nothing".

What is more is that you don't even have a priest according to Heb 7 the Priesthood is also ended.

So with no priest and no sacrifice - nothing at all happens on the Lev 23 Day of Atonement. -- on earth.

The only way for any of it to have meaning after the cross - is to follow Christ as the new Priestly order -- into the heavenly Sanctuary.

Zech 9 points to the first coming of Christ and is quoted in the Gospels

9. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
 

as we all know from reading the Gospel accounts.

 

But in Zechariah's true style of "mixing things up" he includes elements that did not get fulfilled at the first coming of Christ (possibly because the Jews were not intended to reject the Messiah)

 

¹⁰ I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be cut off.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.

 

 

That did not happen -- as we all know.

[8thdaypriest]

Animal sacrifice was ALSO COMMANDED for the 7th Day Sabbath.  Your logic would say that it is also impossible to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, because we don't offer the animal sacrifice. 

The LORD's appointed times have been in place, at least from the Fall, if not from creation.  Israel came out of Egypt 430 years TO THE DAY, from the promise/prophecy to Abraham, which MEANS that the LORD visited Abraham on the DAY that would later be the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread - an APPOINTED TIME.  Interesting that Abraham fed the "angel" unleavened bread. 

Daniel 8:19  "for at the appointed time the end shall be".
Daniel 11:27  "for the end will still be at the appointed time".

Daniel 11:35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time; But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; Because it will surely come, It will not tarry.

I believe this age will END on one of the "LORD's appointed times".   I personally believe that THE DAY on which the 7 wrath plagues will be poured out, will be the Day of Atonement.  That is THE DAY upon which the scapegoat was banished to the "uninhabited place". 

Edited August 7, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Ron Amnsn]

Most people read Colossians 2:16-17 with assumptions that prevent them from understanding what Paul was saying in these verses.

If a person doesn't observe the new moons, they read the verse with the assumption that Paul was writing to believers like themselves who were being judged for not observing the new moons.

If a person reading these verses doesn't observe God's feasts that were given in the Old Testament, they read the passage with the assumption that Paul was writing to people like themselves who were being judged for not observing God's Feasts.

If a person does not observe the Sabbath of the Ten Words, they read Paul's statement with the assumption that Paul was writing to people like themselves who were being judged for not keeping Sabbath, and that Paul was defending such people.

But Paul was not writing to people who were not observing God's instructions in the Old Testament.  Paul was writing to the followers of Jesus.  Jesus himself observed the Law of Moses in the way that God originally intended.  So the followers of Jesus at Colossae were doing as Jesus did and Paul was urging them to continue doing so in spite of the condemnation of those who had been influenced by the asceticism of Gnosticism.

Food and drink were things that were common to the celebration of the Sabbath, Festivals, and New Moons.  The Gnostics and ascetics believed that to be truly "spiritual" a person had to deny themselves of "physical" pleasures so they condemned those who were following the Scriptures. 

The whole chapter of Colossians 2 is a powerful argument against Gnosticism.  But people have tried to turn the chapter into an argument against Judaism, which makes the chapter self-contradictory, confusing, and lame.

 

[8thdaypriest]

When Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you" - was He speaking only of our inclusion in His Father's kingdom?  (As in "a place at the table".)  Or was He speaking of an actually "place" ? 

Hebrews 11:16 "But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." (NKJ)

It could be that Jesus was speaking of BOTH - both a literal place, and a place within His kingdom (meaning inclusion - as in citizens of, or married into a family)?

Redeemed Israel does "marry" the Lamb, thus giving her a place in His house, AND Jesus has prepared an actual residence for His bride - the New Jerusalem.   

[Robert]

The text says God rested from His work, it does not say that God does nothing after the fact.

Q: What work?

A: His original work of creation during the first, six days.

If God started working after the Sabbath (i.e., the 8th day, or the 2 earth's Sunday) that would infer that God's work was lacking, that is to say, that it was imperfect and needed an additional touch up.  

God rests was not of one day, the Sabbath, rather it was perpetual, that is, until sin marred His perfect creation.  When Adam sinned God ended His rest.  We are not to rest because of a perfect creation, but a perfect redemption. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

Seventh Day said,

"View Jesus’ resurrection from the tomb, from death and "from the dead" as his second coming --- his second incarnation so to speaks."

Sorry, I don't buy that one. 

Jesus came to "tabernacle" with us, in a human body.  That was His "first" coming.

He will return in glory.  That will be His second coming.  He will take His bride to the place which He has prepared - in the heavenly country. 

He will return yet again, to the earth - at the 8th millennium, when He will create a "new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness".   

The New Jerusalem will "come down" to the earth, from God out of Heaven.