Are you following the Beast or its image?

[brotherly love]

  7 hours ago, brotherly love said:

 

 

So how many false doctrines can you hold on to before you're not following God? 

 

I am not sure these words are my own?

Edited August 4, 2015 by brotherly love

[DreamWeaver]

I hope that this can be communicated clearly and with love Dreamweaver.

The person who created this acid test of faith is in serious violation of the commandment not to bear false witness. It would be just as true if someone made the opposite acid test of faith-that you had to celebrate Dec 25 for example. It would be a concern over civil rights, but not a concern of salvation.

The original post is in serious error, but is not a sign that the person is not a Christian. There is a classification of those on the fringes within Christianity called heterodox. King James version only would fit into this category. Roman Catholicism fits into this category, and the original post would also fit this category.

God is not going to condemn you over technicalities or even ignorance-He desires relationship with you.

 

 

I see your point clearly and I'm not offended. I believe that not everyone who holds to the beliefs listed here will be lost because its not my place to say who is willfully rejecting truth and who is simply not well informed on certain points (much like I once was). I believe that some people's hearts will also accept the truth when its presented clearly in front of them before Jesus returns. But I also believe that certain beliefs, if clung to without reason and without excuse, can make a person more vulnerable when the Mark of the Beast challenge occurs on this earth.

In my opinion I did not see this as an end all be all test to declare whether someone is a real Christian or not, because I won't know that unless I make it to Heaven and find out who's there and who isn't. I saw this more-so as a checklist to determine which doctrines I haven't considered to question or not. I hope you don't take me for a heterodox (?). 

Also, I don't know Scuba personally, but in their defense they probably didn't quite mean it in the way you think they did either. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Scuba.) This was probably a very abbreviated way of them getting across the point that there are some truths that people have a bit mixed up. Note how they never said in their OP that people who hold those beliefs aren't true Christians, they merely stated that such beliefs could pull someone in line with the beast and potentially cause them  to accept his image.

I think both of you (brotherly love and Scuba) mean well and you two probably agree on more than you think. But as far as I've read, I think you two might be misunderstanding one another. I could be wrong. But I find myself agreeing with both of you on some level. Maybe this might not make sense to certain folks here when I say this, but I see no conflict in believing that the aforementioned information is true, but that it is not our right to assume that those who are unclear on such information are lost eternally.

I would however state clearly, just to avoid confusion on my beliefs, that I do prescribe to the idea that Sunday will be a great test of faith in the end. And that soon it will be a means for Satan to threaten us into bowing to him or facing the most uncomfortable treatment in human history.

 

And @JoeMo: Thanks for saying that I would be able to understand! It made me smile to know that you would assume such a positive thing about me. 

 

Oh yeah, and about the Resurrection of Christ: I believe He died on Friday, rested on Sabbath and rose on Sunday. But I do not believe that that is good enough reason to forsaken the Sabbath and worship on Sundays if you know better.

Edited August 4, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[Scuba]

I hope that this can be communicated clearly and with love Dreamweaver.

The person who created this acid test of faith is in serious violation of the commandment not to bear false witness. It would be just as true if someone made the opposite acid test of faith-that you had to celebrate Dec 25 for example. It would be a concern over civil rights, but not a concern of salvation.

The original post is in serious error, but is not a sign that the person is not a Christian. There is a classification of those on the fringes within Christianity called heterodox. King James version only would fit into this category. Roman Catholicism fits into this category, and the original post would also fit this category.

God is not going to condemn you over technicalities or even ignorance-He desires relationship with you.

 

There are a lot of ungodly things being promoted under the banner of love. Love is a neutral force that can attach itself to good or evil. This is why love needs to be defined and controlled by God. Now lets see what God says about those who worship the Beast or it's image.

Revelation 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

[Scuba]

I am not sure these words are my own?

They were my words but I'm not sure how they got attached to you. 

[Scuba]

 

I see your point clearly and I'm not offended. I believe that not everyone who holds to the beliefs listed here will be lost because its not my place to say who is willfully rejecting truth and who is simply not well informed on certain points (much like I once was). I believe that some people's hearts will also accept the truth when its presented clearly in front of them before Jesus returns. But I also believe that certain beliefs, if clung to without reason and without excuse, can make a person more vulnerable when the Mark of the Beast challenge occurs on this earth.

In my opinion I did not see this as an end all be all test to declare whether someone is a real Christian or not, because I won't know that unless I make it to Heaven and find out who's there and who isn't. I saw this more-so as a checklist to determine which doctrines I haven't considered to question or not. I hope you don't take me for a heterodox (?). 

Also, I don't know Scuba personally, but in their defense they probably didn't quite mean it in the way you think they did either. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Scuba.) This was probably a very abbreviated way of them getting across the point that there are some truths that people have a bit mixed up. Note how they never said in their OP that people who hold those beliefs aren't true Christians, they merely stated that such beliefs could pull someone in line with the beast and potentially cause them  to accept his image.

I think both of you (brotherly love and Scuba) mean well and you two probably agree on more than you think. But as far as I've read, I think you two might be misunderstanding one another. I could be wrong. But I find myself agreeing with both of you on some level. Maybe this might not make sense to certain folks here when I say this, but I see no conflict in believing that the aforementioned information is true, but that it is not our right to assume that those who are unclear on such information are lost eternally.

I would however state clearly, just to avoid confusion on my beliefs, that I do prescribe to the idea that Sunday will be a great test of faith in the end. And that soon it will be a means for Satan to threaten us into bowing to him or facing the most uncomfortable treatment in human history.

 

And @JoeMo: Thanks for saying that I would be able to understand! It made me smile to know that you would assume such a positive thing about me. 

 

Oh yeah, and about the Resurrection of Christ: I believe He died on Friday, rested on Sabbath and rose on Sunday. But I do not believe that that is good enough reason to forsaken the Sabbath and worship on Sundays if you know better.

Amen DreamWeaver, I never judge a person's salvation because the things on my list are held by God's people. This is why God says to those who have a belief system built on Babylon, 'Come out of her MY PEOPLE" .

Revelation 18:1-5 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Do you believe a system of worship was prophesied by God to rise up and attempt to change God's times and law? Notice how I said, times, with an (s). How do you think this system would be able to do such an incredible thing? Tell me, how did you come to believe that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Scuba

[Tom Wetmore]

Here are some key doctrines that both the Beast and its image hold and teach. Test your faith and see where you stand in any particular area.

1. Sunday as the Lord's day.

2. Jesus' death on Friday and resurrection on Sunday, which is the only reason why Sunday is called the Lord's day.

3. Jesus' birth on December 25th.

4. Immortality of the soul.

5. Heaven or hell at death.

6. Eternal burning of living wicked people in a place under the earth called, hell.

7. Heaven is the hope for the righteous.

8. Unclean animals are now clean.

9. Easter Sunday.

10. Forty days of lent.

11. Infant baptism.

12. Secret Rapture.

13. Antichrist is revealed after the second coming of Jesus.

14. The trinity doctrine as defined by the Vatican.

15. The dead are alive.

If you hold to any of the above beliefs or practices you are following the Beast or its image in that area.

 

 

Revelation 22:18,19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

It just seems to me that this list adds a lot to the words of the prophecy in Revelation, and takes words away (ignores) from that book of prophecy....

[brotherly love]

There are a lot of ungodly things being promoted under the banner of love. Love is a neutral force that can attach itself to good or evil. This is why love needs to be defined and controlled by God. Now lets see what God says about those who worship the Beast or it's image.

Revelation 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I am marked with my identity with the Lamb of God, not a beast. Our brothers and sisters in Christ do not identify with a beast, they identify with the Lamb.

[DreamWeaver]

Do you believe a system of worship was prophesied by God to rise up and attempt to change God's times and law? Notice how I said, times, with an (s). How do you think this system would be able to do such an incredible thing? Tell me, how did you come to believe that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday?

Do you believe a system of worship was prophesied by God to rise up and attempt to change God's times and law?

Me: Yes.

Notice how I said, times, with an (s).

Me: If you said times with an "s" at the end, then did you mean to take off the "s" at the end of the word laws as well? Because I think this system of worship we're talking about attempted to alter more than one law.

How do you think this system would be able to do such an incredible thing?

Me: Many tactics were used. I'd rather not get into it right now, but the primary way it was done was to repeat lies over and over long enough to effect the thinking of many generations of people.

Tell me, how did you come to believe that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday?

Me: There are a lot of reasons why I believe He died on Friday and rose on Sunday. In the Bible it states that when the first day of the week (Sunday) was just beginning the stone of the sepulcher was rolled back and opened, and it also states that the Jews had to stop tending to His dead body on an evening before the Sabbath. So that would place His death on Friday and His resurrection on Sunday. It also makes sense to me that Jesus would do it this way because since the Sabbath is the day of rest, He would have been a good role model even in His grave by "resting" on Sabbath and letting it pass before rising on Sunday.

[DreamWeaver]

Oh and Scuba, could you give me some brief clarification on what you mean by your statement in number 14? I want to make sure I understand you correctly on that.

[brotherly love]

Amen DreamWeaver, I never judge a person's salvation because the things on my list are held by God's people. This is why God says to those who have a belief system built on Babylon, 'Come out of her MY PEOPLE" .

Revelation 18:1-5 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Do you believe a system of worship was prophesied by God to rise up and attempt to change God's times and law? Notice how I said, times, with an (s). How do you think this system would be able to do such an incredible thing? Tell me, how did you come to believe that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday?

Here is you go wrong. You revise what "come out of her, my people" would have meant to the original intended audience. The authority of the text comes from the human author whom God communicates through. The message was occasional, or for better words an occasion the people were facing.

The occasional situation the church was facing was unbelieving Israel who rejected their King, and was persecuting those who accepted the Promised King. The apostate were using the roman Empire to do their will. The 7 churches of Asia minor were about to collide with a manical Caesar cult. This is where you will see a harlot riding a beast, but the beast ended up turning on her.

Israel was called a prostitute many times upon great apostasy. To "come out of her" would apply to those who were apostate in denying Messiah under covenant. Your list has no authority because it relies on imagination and conspiracy theories. This is why these scenarios are 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time.

To be marked is not who puts a jiffy marker on your forehead or arm, it is who you identify with by thoughts and actions. The references are right out of Torah

This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the Lord is to be on your lips. For the Lord brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.

And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the Lord brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.

Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

The book of Revelation specifically tells us that with wisdom and understanding the mark would be understood. 

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.^[e] That number is 666.

You counter this with your "list" that it would have taken  divination, speculation and utter confusion in order for the mark would be understood. It would have been virtually meaningless for the people to whom it was written to for 1700 years

 

[brotherly love]

 

I see your point clearly and I'm not offended. I believe that not everyone who holds to the beliefs listed here will be lost because its not my place to say who is willfully rejecting truth and who is simply not well informed on certain points (much like I once was). I believe that some people's hearts will also accept the truth when its presented clearly in front of them before Jesus returns. But I also believe that certain beliefs, if clung to without reason and without excuse, can make a person more vulnerable when the Mark of the Beast challenge occurs on this earth.

In my opinion I did not see this as an end all be all test to declare whether someone is a real Christian or not, because I won't know that unless I make it to Heaven and find out who's there and who isn't. I saw this more-so as a checklist to determine which doctrines I haven't considered to question or not. I hope you don't take me for a heterodox (?). 

Also, I don't know Scuba personally, but in their defense they probably didn't quite mean it in the way you think they did either. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Scuba.) This was probably a very abbreviated way of them getting across the point that there are some truths that people have a bit mixed up. Note how they never said in their OP that people who hold those beliefs aren't true Christians, they merely stated that such beliefs could pull someone in line with the beast and potentially cause them  to accept his image.

I think both of you (brotherly love and Scuba) mean well and you two probably agree on more than you think. But as far as I've read, I think you two might be misunderstanding one another. I could be wrong. But I find myself agreeing with both of you on some level. Maybe this might not make sense to certain folks here when I say this, but I see no conflict in believing that the aforementioned information is true, but that it is not our right to assume that those who are unclear on such information are lost eternally.

I would however state clearly, just to avoid confusion on my beliefs, that I do prescribe to the idea that Sunday will be a great test of faith in the end. And that soon it will be a means for Satan to threaten us into bowing to him or facing the most uncomfortable treatment in human history.

 

And @JoeMo: Thanks for saying that I would be able to understand! It made me smile to know that you would assume such a positive thing about me. 

 

Oh yeah, and about the Resurrection of Christ: I believe He died on Friday, rested on Sabbath and rose on Sunday. But I do not believe that that is good enough reason to forsaken the Sabbath and worship on Sundays if you know better.

The post is titled "are you following the beast or its image"  and the so called list which is given is followed up with these words "If you hold to any of the above beliefs or practices you are following the Beast or its image in that area."

There is no wiggle room here, the premise of the original post is that if a person believes in one or more of these items on the list, then that person is identifying with and following Satan instead of God. This has no authority at all, and Holy scripture does not qualify these items in any shape or form other than a persons imagination.

 

[Stan]

Scuba, are you Shepards Rod or RSDA?

[Scuba]

Does this verse have any value to God's people today?

Deuteronomy 12:29-31 When the LORD goes ahead of you and destroys the nations and you live in their land, do not fall into the trap of following their customs and worshiping their gods. Do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations worship their gods? I want to follow their example.’ You must not worship the LORD the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods everything the LORD hates.

[brotherly love]

Does this verse have any value to God's people today?

Deuteronomy 12:29-31 When the LORD goes ahead of you and destroys the nations and you live in their land, do not fall into the trap of following their customs and worshiping their gods. Do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations worship their gods? I want to follow their example.’ You must not worship the LORD the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods everything the LORD hates.

Then anyone who worships God other than a Jewish roots activist has taken the mark?

[Stan]

Scuba, are you Shepards Rod or RSDA?

Still waiting for an answer.

[Aliensanctuary]

Beware the weee little resurrected Beastie, waiting with jaws open wide to rip the souls out of those bearing its mark. Those having the mark will all willingly choose do so, else, by default upon refusing the mark of YHVH. Without the Beastie mark, no one buys stuff or food. Beastie doesn't care about lists of beliefs or doctrines or denominations or religions. Beastie only demands allegiance to his master, the Evil One. Beastie wants slaves, many, many slaves to attack the Kingdom of YHVH and it's city.

Beastie caught. Goodbye Beastie. Cremation not good enough. Beastie Crisps with fire and brimstone on the side. Beastie very bad, O lover of death.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Aliensanctuary

[8thdaypriest]

Gail is a subsequent post added that obedience is not a checklist but a matter of the heart.

I would like to comment on this "heart' issue.

It is true that only heartfelt belief in Jesus can save the sinner, but it is also true that without repentance and obedience to God's commandments  no one can claim true heartfelt belief no matter how vehemently one confesses with one's mouth that Jesus is the Christ.

A profession of faith in Christ is meaningless without a demonstation of that faith, and faith is demonstarted by works of obedience.(James 2:18,20) Obedience is the aicd test for heartfelt belief and confession .

Jesus said ; " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Matt 7:21 

 

Jesus defined love for him by whether one kept His commandments (Jhn 14:15)'"If you love me, keep my commandments"

 

John called those who professed to know their Lord but did not keep his commandments liars. in fact, 1 John 2:3-5, sums up the matter of  the relationship between love and the law

 

1 John  2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 
 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 
 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 

 

In the judgment we will not be judged by our confession or profession of faith and love for Jesus, but we will be judged by our works of righteousness which are the fruit and demonstation of our profession.

 

Rev  22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

 

I do NOT disagree with you on this one Jackson.  Our "works" show our heart allegiance, to Jesus as our LORD (which means master).  The primary "work" which Christians will display is "love" toward both brethren and enemies.  I've known some very loving Sunday keepers, and some not-so-loving Sabbath keepers.  Which ones do you think Jesus would rather have in His Kingdom? 

The Bereans were commended for "searching the Scriptures", so perhaps holding to "correct" doctrine, might result from the "good work" of "searching" - IF that searching is guided by the spirit of Christ.  I just don't want to condemn anyone for holding to a doctrine which they honestly believe is truth.     Correct doctrinal positions do NOT save.  I'm NOT saying they aren't important.  True doctrines reveal the true self-less character of God our Father, which makes it easier for folks to know Him, and then give their allegiance to Him.   

[Scuba]

Satan has very cleverly removed loving God out of the equation of love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. We say following Jesus means loving others yet when it comes to loving God by obeying Him we are now called a legalist. Everything on the list I gave comes straight from Babylonian worship. We are not following God when we participate in those things any more than if we participate in gay marriage. God is calling His people to come out of Babylon. What do you think that means? 

[JoeMo]

Satan has very cleverly removed loving God out of the equation of love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. We say following Jesus means loving others yet when it comes to loving God by obeying Him we are now called a legalist. Everything on the list I gave comes straight from Babylonian worship. We are not following God when we participate in those things any more than if we participate in gay marriage. God is calling His people to come out of Babylon. What do you think that means? 

I would suggest that you review Bro. love's post from Monday at 2:05 PM.  What I infer from your "list" is that you must be a card-carrying traditional historical SDA or you are following the beast.  If you truly believe everything on that list is salvational for you, go for it!  You must follow your own conscience.  Where you become legalistic is where you pass judgement on others who don't believe as you do; and sound (at least to me) like those who don't agree with you somehow have an inferior theology.

God deals with each of us differently.  Sabbath observance for me is deeply intertwined with my relationship with Jesus; so for me to abandon the Sabbath for Sunday would be equivalent to following the beast.  However, I can't put that burden or threat on anyone else.  I know lots of Sunday keepers who IMO have a much deeper relationship with Jesus than I do.

 

[brotherly love]

Satan has very cleverly removed loving God out of the equation of love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. We say following Jesus means loving others yet when it comes to loving God by obeying Him we are now called a legalist. Everything on the list I gave comes straight from Babylonian worship. We are not following God when we participate in those things any more than if we participate in gay marriage. God is calling His people to come out of Babylon. What do you think that means? 

If you want to weild this sword, then you will have to accept the exact same argument used against you.

Jewish roots conspiracy theories will accuse you of the same thing, you dont follow the feasts, reject family purity laws..etc.,-you are right out of pagan Babylon and Greece

Atheist conspiracy theories will then claim that we all are just paganism repackaged, they claim that almost all the aspects of the old and new Testaments are ripped out from paganism.

So if you want to accept this conspiracy, you have no defense against the same conspiracy used against you. You will look like a hypocrite

Edited August 6, 2015 by brotherly love

[JoeMo]

Scuba,

I basically agree with bro love's assessment; but I wouldn't call you a hypocrite; just a legalist; or a Shepherd's Rod or RSDA guy.  It's OK, with prayer, you can overcome!

[brotherly love]

Scuba,

I basically agree with bro love's assessment; but I wouldn't call you a hypocrite; just a legalist; or a Shepherd's Rod or RSDA guy.  It's OK, with prayer, you can overcome!

Oh! Not calling him a hypocrite, just that he would look like one if the same argument was used against him that applies the same conspiracy against others who dont believe the same way they do!! 

He can overcome!!!

[Kevin H]

Some of them would be debatable as to whether they are Babylon or not. Also how are you defining Babylon: The ancient empire or the fallen churches?

[debbym]

That's true, debbym. But a false love and a false peace and safety message will be another reason why people receive the mark. And while I do agree that a person can not receive the Seal of God without genuine godly love for people, God's type of love is more specific in nature and its rooted in truth. Its not just about getting along and being a servant to the people of the world. If a person places their service to their fellow man above their service to God, a person runs the risk of bowing to man for reasons that may seem kind but will ultimately place them as a person guilty of treason in the eyes of God's holy kingdom.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that we do need to be loving and kind. I don't disagree with you there. I'm just clarifying that outward expressions of love and kindness is not all there is to it.

i do not understand this idea that a false message will be the cause of anyone receiving the mark.

We are by nature children of wrath.  If we do not receive the Spirit of truth, if we refuse to be drawn into the shelter of peace and graciousness, mercy and repentance, we have no defense or protection.   Our minds will simply not be willing to receive the impress of heaven, we will fully ripen and fully develop the attributes of  of the evil one.  Much like those who refused Christ when he walked the earth.

We cannot make ourselves Holy, or Righteous by our behaviour.  We cannot secure the defense of Heaven by controlling our behavior and following a regime of correctness.  We cannot defend ourselves at all from the mark of the beast or it's power.  

The very presence of God is our only defense.  We must be willing to be humbled, and be born again.  our only defense the the infinite power of the Love of God, expressed in Jesus.  And God is more than able to defend us, deliver us from ourselves, and sustain us in being His and doing His will.  "For it is God that works in us both to will and to do His will."

God will do great things through his weakest and lowly follower, who loves God more than they love themselves.  Such were those described in Hebrews 11, and all who by despising themselves and in spite of their fallen humanity held to faith in the certainty of God's love and  became victorious.

The blood that gives me strength day by day will never never never lose it's power.  I may not have doctrinal perfection, but if i have Jesus i have everything i need, whatever wisdom i need, whatever light i need, whatever defense i need at the moment i need it.  Yes, Elijah ran in terror from Jezebel, he failed miserably in the face of beast power.   He was was subject to the infirmities of His humanity but he allowed God to deepen his trust and his victory over his weakness was obtained and he walked from earth to heaven.  He was representative of those who stand against the mark of the beast and are able to stand when Jesus comes and walk into heaven without seeing death. Will we say, Oh God, iI will not let you go except you bless me."

We do not know what kind of experience God will lead us through to prepare us to do the same.  I dont think i would have anything to be proud of if i was Elijah, only gratitude for the wisdom, and mercy and graciousness of God towards me, a fearful, failing, hapless sinner.  It was not doctrinal perfection that saved Elijah.

Edited August 7, 2015 by debbym

[JoeMo]

Another test of Scuba's list would be "how many of his points correlate with the 28 fundamentals of the church as stated on Adventist.org?"  I'm not talking about prevailing or regional SDA culture; I'm talking about the formal Fundies as adopted by the denomination.  For example, Fundie #2 addresses the SDA position on the Trinity.  Scuba's list includes the belief in trinity as defined by the RCC as a sign of beast-following.  I have been both a Catholic and an SDA; and I see little if any difference between how the two define the Trinity.  Does that mean that, according to Scuba's list, that the SDA church is following the beast?

Edited August 7, 2015 by JoeMo