Are you following the Beast or its image?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, according to scuba.

[Scuba]

Instead of attacking me why don't you take the time to study and test what you believe. If what you believe and practice comes from Babylon then you are not following God and need to come out of Babylon. Watch these videos and come out of Babylon. Now I know there will be people here who will say things like, "I have no time to watch your cheaply made videos" yet they will continue to attack me without an understanding. That I have no time for. Watch the videos and come out of Babylon just like God is asking of His people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VANW1HoPnKk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nwVHEk_wwM

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scuba

[JoeMo]

Scuba, Instead of posting videos, Can you please answer the questions that have been posed to you:

1. Are you a member of a ministry independent of or against the mainline SDA church (e.g., Shephard's Rod or Reformed SDA's)?

2. Do you teach that the established SDA denomination if Babylon?

Your answer to those questions will determine whether or not I "have the time" to watch the videos you have posted.

I'm not "against" you; It just seems to me that your list is reasons to exclude people from fellowship rather than including them.  That doesn't seem to correlate with Jesus' practice of including as many as He could in fellowship - even His enemies.  Jesus didn't seem to be so much of a sticler for correct doctrine as he was for correct vertical and horizontal relationships.

Edited August 10, 2015 by JoeMo

[Stan]

My experience with Shepard's Rod have not been honourable. They are given material that convinces them the Church is evil, and and response they get correcting them is a deception, that they have to stand true, for the real Church them.

They suck the spiritual joy from people, and act like parasites in the Churches. They do not contribute but use church attendance to find victims and zone in on new believers... 

They usually, but not always, can not defend themselves but say watch this or look at this or read this.

 

It is more than likely why Scuba will not respond to my messages, both private and public, and why he/she has to hide under a fake name.

[Stan]

Too often is the the gullible leading the gullible.

 

Scuba, who are you? In real life?

[Kevin H]

I still don't see how all those ideas are supposed to come from Babylon. The Bible gives the sign of coming out of Babylon in Jeremiah 31:22 where I don't see Scuba's list.

[Scuba]

I'm not part of the Shephard's Rod or the Reformed SDA's. I don't even know who or what they are. But either way, those questions are just a distraction from what we should be doing and that is testing what we believe. If what I said on the list is true then who cares if I'm from Mars or Cape Cod, truth is truth. For someone to say they don't believe the things on my list are from a Babylonian system of worship tells me they have not studied because it's so easy to prove that they are from Babylon and we know God is calling His people out of Babylon. Now forget about who I am or where I'm from and focus on what is being revealed. Test what I say by first watching the videos to learn where all this comes from and then refute it with both biblical and historical support. Anything less than that is useless and I don't have time for useless things.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scuba

[brotherly love]

I'm not part of the Shephard's Rod or the Reformed SDA's. I don't even know who or what they are. But either way, those questions are just a distraction from what we should be doing and that is testing what we believe. If what I said on the list is true then who cares if I'm from Mars or Cape Cod, truth is truth. For someone to say they don't believe the things on my list are from a Babylonian system of worship tells me they have not studied because it's so easy to prove that they are from Babylon and we know God is calling His people out of Babylon. Now forget about who I am or where I'm from and focus on what is being revealed. Test what I say by first watching the videos to learn where all this comes from and then refute it with both biblical and historical support. Anything less than that is useless and I don't have time for useless things.

I am to test the things you say in light of scripture. It not even close to truth or reality.

There always is a silver lining though. You can reach many people with your conspiracy ideas. There are many that are really into conspiracies who dont know Jesus. They believe in such conspiracies like aliens, governmental ones like 911 or illuminatii, and even personal ones like if Kurt Cobain and Elvis are still alive. You may be able to attract these types into accepting the Gospel. So it is not all that bad, and you can be a lasting legacy in your own way

There can be a major problem with this, many can come to Christ wanting what is on the table, and have no interest in the Master Himself

[JoeMo]

 For someone to say they don't believe the things on my list are from a Babylonian system of worship tells me they have not studied because it's so easy to prove that they are from Babylon and we know God is calling His people out of Babylon.

Thanks for your direct answer to the first question, Scuba.  I notice you didn't answer the second one.  Soooo - The SDA Church is not studied (in your opinion); and is therfore part of Babylon?  I heard that argument from the likes of Hope International, Steps to Life, and Rolling Hills SDA Church 25 - 30 years ago.  It's that darn New Theology!

I will watch the first video as a courtesy to you.  If I agree with it, I will watch another.  If I don't agree with it, I won't watch any more; because I don't want to fill my head with useless drivel.  I will give you feedback.

[JoeMo]

I watched the first video and found what I consider to be many flaws.  First of all, the the "Vicarius Fillii Dei = 666"  has been thoroughly debunked.  Jan Marcessen himself even recanted that.  Secondly, the pope is NOT the only one who has attempted to change laws and times.  For example, Islam has changed God's Law to Sharia law; and changed the worship day to Friday.  There are as many adherents to Islam as there are to Christianity; so their change is just as grievious. Thirdly, the RCC doesn't even come close to meeting the qualifications of the antichrist described by John in his epistles.  The RCC does not deny that Jesus came in the flesh; and they do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God.  Fourth, Those who live in glass houses shouldn't thow stones.  Many conservative SDA's have read and studied the writings of EGW far more than they have studied the writings of scripture. They even use her writings above those of scripture to prove their points.   Aren't those people setting her up as their own little pope?  Lastly (for now) most of theCatholic writings qouted  in the video were 100 - 300 years old.  Most Catholics (including clergy) don't think that way any more.

How many Catholics are running around beheading people? How much of the Middle East - the location of most of the Bible stories and prophecies - is currently overrun by rabid murderous Catholics?  We should look at the current signs of the times rather than signs from 150 years ago to determine who the beast is.

I'm not gonna argue about this.  In another thread, one of the Administrators made a very good point - it is more important to have a relationship with Jesus in the end times than to argue about who's who and what's what.  I'm still gonna study prophecy; but IMO having a strong relationship with Jesus is much more important than getting an A+ in prophectc interpretation.  When I get to heaven, I think God's gonna be more concerned about my love for Him than on what I believe about the Pope or Islam.

I could go on and on.  Suffice it to say that I didn't believe half of the stuff in the video.  It's the same argument SDA's have made for 150 years.  It's time we took a long hard look at that kind of theology; and see who in the world today  meets those prophetic qualifications.  Or we could just sit at Jesus' feet and learn of Him.

I'm not saying you're wrong or deceived; I'm just saying I definitely don't believe like you do.  I won't watch the other videos.

Edited August 10, 2015 by JoeMo

[Scuba]

I watched the first video and found what I consider to be many flaws.  First of all, the the "Vicarius Fillii Dei = 666"  has been thoroughly debunked.  Jan Marcessen himself even recanted that.  Secondly, the pope is NOT the only one who has attempted to change laws and times.  For example, Islam has changed God's Law to Sharia law; and changed the worship day to Friday.  There are as many adherents to Islam as there are to Christianity; so their change is just as grievious. Thirdly, the RCC doesn't even come close to meeting the qualifications of the antichrist described by John in his epistles.  The RCC does not deny that Jesus came in the flesh; and they do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God.  Fourth, Those who live in glass houses shouldn't thow stones.  Many conservative SDA's have read and studied the writings of EGW far more than they have studied the writings of scripture. They even use her writings above those of scripture to prove their points.   Aren't those people setting her up as their own little pope?  Lastly (for now) most of theCatholic writings qouted  in the video were 100 - 300 years old.  Most Catholics (including clergy) don't think that way any more.

How many Catholics are running around beheading people? How much of the Middle East - the location of most of the Bible stories and prophecies - is currently overrun by rabid murderous Catholics?  We should look at the current signs of the times rather than signs from 150 years ago to determine who the beast is.

I'm not gonna argue about this.  In another thread, one of the Administrators made a very good point - it is more important to have a relationship with Jesus in the end times than to argue about who's who and what's what.  I'm still gonna study prophecy; but IMO having a strong relationship with Jesus is much more important than getting an A+ in prophectc interpretation.  When I get to heaven, I think God's gonna be more concerned about my love for Him than on what I believe about the Pope or Islam.

I could go on and on.  Suffice it to say that I didn't believe half of the stuff in the video.  It's the same argument SDA's have made for 150 years.  It's time we took a long hard look at that kind of theology; and see who in the world today  meets those prophetic qualifications.  Or we could just sit at Jesus' feet and learn of Him.

I'm not saying you're wrong or deceived; I'm just saying I definitely don't believe like you do.  I won't 

You seem to have an ecumenical spirit. The things on my videos we're foundational to the Protestant movement. Even Martin Luther himself stated the papacy is the man of sin who sits in a temple of God. Many of the reformers believed the same things such as John Calvin and John Wesley. To deny these things you have to deny a large portion of history and Biblical prophecy. 

[Kevin H]

I am still wondering how those things are connected with Babylon. First of all are you talking about historic Babylon? Then how are they connected. Do you mean the other churches: Well they started to fall and the Millerites were the first to notice the process starting. However they have not yet fallen.

Much on your list I disagree with: such as the rapture and so may other things. However I don't necessary see all these things connected with Babylonian applications of the fallen churches.

You mentioned the trinity. No I do see some difference between our understanding of the trinity (Infinite God too big for us to comprehend so God reveals himself in time and space through the 3 beings of the trinity). as opposed to the Catholic view where the trinity is all there is to God. But there are those who are completely against the trinity as we had a number of pioneers who were opposed to the trinity. However being Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian were options. Elder Spicer's family were Trinitarians. His Father was an Adventist minister. He left the ministry because he was being pressured to preach sermons against the trinity, which of course he could not do. So he became a faithful lay member and lay preacher and the trinity was no longer an issue as he could believe it without difficulty. Towards the end of his life James White wrote a letter saying "I am starting to find the arguments for the trinity more convincing than the arguments against it." And as Mrs. White's writings developed especially after 1888 her focus were on the 3 aspects of the trinity, the 3 deceptions of Satan which are against each member of the trinity and how they are finally answered by the 3 angels messages. So if you remove the trinity you remove what became the core of her teaching and are only left with a bunch of words that you can edit as you wish.

Also you mentioned December 25 as Christmas. Now I do not believe that Jesus was born that day. But we have two issues here:

1. First for hundreds of years we thought we got December 25 from the pagans. That it was a big pagan holiday and that in the 4th century with Constantine that the church took the pagan holiday and Christianized it to make it easier for the pagans to join. However in recent decades we have learned that this history was incorrect. That Christians believed that Jesus was born December 25 a hundred years before Constantine. And that starting in the second century the church was celebrating the feast of the annunciation every Passover. Then when the church changed it's calendar to the Roman Calendar Passover fell on March 25. Thereafter they celebrated that feast every March 25 (and 9 months after March 25 is December 25). They were NOT trying to take a pagan holiday. They were NOT trying to impress the Pagans. They were celebrating his birth in hiding in the catacombs to avoid the pagans. The reason why we got March 25 and December 25 is because of a tradition that developed in Judaism. Some Rabbis believed that Isaac was born on Passover. However others believed that he was conserved on Passover and born 9 months after Passover. The original event with Jesus was the church saying that Isaac was a type of Christ. That Just as Isaac was conserved on Passover and born 9 months later, so Mary had the angel's annunciation on Passover and gave birth to Jesus 9 months later.  Where on earth do you get Babylon out of this? By the way an interesting foot note: while there is evidence of pagan events around the winter solstice, there has been nothing about December 25 until the fourth century AD by the Pagans. While still debated there is evidence that the Pagans took December 25 from the Christians. That we had it first (well, second, as the Jews had the birth of Isaac during that season). So we might be able to say that Babylon got that from us.

2. The second issue is that some people are worried about other holidays than the Biblical ones: However, the feasts such as Yom Kippur and Passover etc. are connected to the agricultural cycle of that piece of land. They were recognized by the inhabitants long before Abraham was even born. The Canaanites were celebrating them in very similar ways and they were a part of the Baal worship. So they were pagan in origin. Instead of being told that they were pagan and to ignore those holidays (and since they were very much tied to what they needed to do with their crops, God took these pagan holidays and took out the worst elements and had they instead of being times to try to appease and help out Baal, to use them to learn about and trust in God). And we find additional holidays being added: We got Purim with the Ester event and in the inter-testamental time Hanukkah. Hanukkah became a Biblical holiday because Jesus used it as a holiday to celebrate that he is the resurrection and the life and honored this new holiday that we don't have in the Old Testament in a special way by connecting the message of that holiday to the raising of Lazarus. 

Now being told these two things about holidays and specifically December 25 how does that become Babylon?

[JoeMo]

You seem to have an ecumenical spirit. The things on my videos we're foundational to the Protestant movement. Even Martin Luther himself stated the papacy is the man of sin who sits in a temple of God. Many of the reformers believed the same things such as John Calvin and John Wesley. To deny these things you have to deny a large portion of history and Biblical prophecy.

Yes; I do have an ecumenical spirit; thanks for noticing. I consider that to be a compliment. You and your videos do talk a lot about what the founders of Protestantism said about Catholics.  Martin Luther also had some things to say about Islam.  Since the discourses are longer than anyone would read in a post, links to the articles are below:

 http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/02/martin-luther-on-jihad.html

The following link is a rather lengthly video by Walid Shoebat; a former Palestinian terrorist and Islamic fundamentalist turned Christian.  He explains quite nicely how an Islamic antichrist fits into Christian eschatology.  I'm not saying he's right; but I can't say he's wrong, either.

 

 

[brotherly love]

JoeMoe

This man shady. There is no proof that he bombed a bank, there is no account of his claims. There is no account of him being in an Israeli prison, He sells books and makes money based on a lie. Be careful.

[JoeMo]

hey bro,

Thanks for the heads-up.  I have read many of those accounts.  I have listened to Walib and corresponded with some fairly well-connected ministries that support him.  His "chosen" Chritian denomination is Catholicism.  Many fundamental Protestants reject him on that basis alone.  He and dozens of other preachers with view that stray too far from the Christian "box" are frequently discounted as charlatans.  I think of people like Leif Hetland, Bill Johnson, Sid Roth, Perry Stone, Randy Clark, Heidi Baker, Darren Wilson ... the list goes on and on.  Even though they may not have the whole truth (who does?) they have valuable things to say.

I can't say that I agree with everything Walid says; but his stuff does correlate well with the views of certain Orthodox Jewish and pro-Zionist Christians.

For me, no matter what the scenario for the end times, the most important thing we can do is to strive to develop an ever-increasing level of faith and and relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  I believe that, armed with the power of love and faith, we will not be swayed by the beast, the false prophet, or the antichrist - no matter who they ultimately turn out to be.

Edited August 11, 2015 by JoeMo