Is our God the Father the Allah of the Muslims?

[pnattmbtc]

Can you show me a verse from the Bible saying that "God is Jesus"?  The phrase in Rev 1:18 "I am he which liveth and was dead" specifically refers to Jesus. It was the Son Who died on the cross, NOT the Father.

You comment made this verse come to mind:

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Also this one:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:19) 

And for Spirit of Prophecy fans:

 God himself was crucified with Christ; for Christ was one with the Father. (ST 3/26/94) 

By the way, I'm not presenting these to disagree with your points, but just because these texts came to mind. 

[pnattmbtc]

As mentioned several times, "Allah" is simply Arabic for "God".

But when considering the Muslim understanding of God with the Christian understanding of God, there are of course differences. However, there are also differences between the SdA understanding of God and the Baptist understanding of God. Does this mean we worship different Gods? Does the SdA who believes that Jesus took on Adam's unfallen nature worship a different God than the SdA who believes that Jesus took on our fallen nature? Does the Western Christian who believes that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son (the famous "Filioque" clause) worship a different God than the Eastern Orthodox who believes that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father? Do five-point Calvinists who believe in limited atonement worship a different God than the Wesleyans who believe in universal atonement?

At what point does our varying understandings of God depart sufficiently from common ground so that we say one worships a "different God"? This question is of course one of semantics, not substance.

I like your post here, but regarding the last sentence, I think the question is one of substance, which is what makes it interesting.  That is, there is a philosophical question here, not just semantic, when we ask if we are worshiping the same God.

[pierrepaul]

I agree tt is certainly a philosophical question, as there is substance to the semantic discussion. The organization of concepts into "same", "similar", "different", etc. is part of philosophy and helps us understand. It's like classifying literature. What is the dividing line between a short story vs a novella vs a novel? There is no sharp line, but no one will fail to observe the difference between Tolstoy's "War and Peace" and Poe's "Cask of Amontillado". One could say that they are both the same "genre" since they are both fiction; or one can say that they are different "genres" since a novel and short story are different. But now the discussion is not about whether War and Peace and Cask of Amontillado are the same; the discussion is about the definition of "genre" and how "granular" our distinctions ought to be.

Another analogy would be the question: "Are rugby and American football variations of the same sport or are they different sports?"

Now since the Muslims draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham, I would be inclined to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but have radically different understandings about his nature and character.

But if someone else wishes to state that the Muslim and Christian Gods are different because God is defined by His nature and character, I could agree with that as well. But now the discussion is about the meaning of the words "same" and "different", which is largely semantic (especially since, in English, "same" can mean either "identical" or "similar" depending on the context.

This reminds me of a discussion I once had about whether "god" exists. One participant stated that to him, "god" was the entire compendium of physical and scientific laws governing the universe, not that much different from the Deists' "watch-maker" god. But if one defines "god" to include "science", atheists now believe in "god" as well. And if one considers "god" to be simply that which exists, it is meaningless to ask the question as to whether or not God exists. Of course, this is just playing with words and definitions and doesn't really advance anyone's understanding of anything.

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by pierrepaul

[pnattmbtc]

Now since the Muslims draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham, I would be inclined to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but have radically different understandings about his nature and character.

How about if they don't draw their traditions from Abraham.  Did Ghandi worship the same God, for example? 

[phkrause]

How about if they don't draw their traditions from Abraham.  Did Ghandi worship the same God, for example? 

Why? was he a son of Abraham?

[pnattmbtc]

Why? was he a son of Abraham?

I'm not following your thought here.  pierrepaul wrote, "Now since the Muslims draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham, I would be inclined to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but have radically different understandings about his nature and character." so I asked him what about if someone who didn't draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham were involved.  pierrepaul didn't say anything about being a son of Abraham, so I don't understand why you asked about this.

[phkrause]

I'm not following your thought here.  pierrepaul wrote, "Now since the Muslims draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham, I would be inclined to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but have radically different understandings about his nature and character." so I asked him what about if someone who didn't draw their tradition from Abraham and the God of Abraham were involved.  pierrepaul didn't say anything about being a son of Abraham, so I don't understand why you asked about this.

What does Ghandi have to do with Abraham? That's my point.

[pnattmbtc]

I used Ghandi as an example of someone not coming from the tradition of Abraham to ask pierrepaul about his comment.

[phkrause]

I used Ghandi as an example of someone not coming from the tradition of Abraham to ask pierrepaul about his comment.

Oh, OK

[Sojourner]

Can you show me a verse from the Bible saying that "God is Jesus"?  The phrase in Rev 1:18 "I am he which liveth and was dead" specifically refers to Jesus. It was the Son Who died on the cross, NOT the Father.

John 1:1-3Living Bible (TLB)

1 ^1-2 Before anything else existed,^[a] there was Christ,* with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. ³ He created everything there is—nothing exists that he didn’t make.

[Aliensanctuary]

Protestantism is but a detour and we are lost on side roads and in the ditches without a map. When the Covenant is renewed, we can resume the journey to the Land of God.

[Aliensanctuary]

Both Allah and YHVH kill the disobedient. Toxic Islam persecutes, enslaves, or kills anyone not infected with the disease.

[Samie]

 

what I like about the Bible is that both OT & NT are in agreement. Here is a text from Deuteronomy:

May I ask how you understand the phrase "one God" as used in OT & NT?

I understand it as ONE, not two nor three.

^NAS 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

[JoeMo]

I don't recall faulting anyone for worshiping our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Who Himself said:

^NRS Luke 4:8 Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.'"

Wiggle, wiggle!  Aren't you the one who asked earlier "how do we know whether God condones those who  worship of Jesus or not?"  God may not condone those who worship Jesus; but He must condone the worship of Jesus.  Is or is not Jesus God?  Jesus accepts worship several times in the NT.  If He is not God; and accepted worship, He is evil.  If He is God and accepts worship of Himself; that seems to be condoning worship.

It is true that Muslims did not invent the word "allah".  Christians and Jews did not invent the word "god" either.  Many ancient Middle Eastern pagans (many of whom were children of Abraham) worshipped false "allahs" (IOW, false "gods").

[Samie]

Is or is not Jesus God?

I believe the word "God" has two shades of meaning. First, it connotes a state or nature of existence. Second, it means the Supreme Ruler of the whole universe. In the first connotation, the word "god" can be likened to the word "angel" (seraphim is an "angel", cherubim is an "angel"), "animal" (dog, rabbit, fish), or "plant" (cabbage, rose, fir).

In the first connotation, Jesus is God. But in the second, it is ONLY the Father.

[JoeMo]

I believe the word "God" has two shades of meaning. First, it connotes a state or nature of existence. Second, it means the Supreme Ruler of the whole universe. In the first connotation, the word "god" can be likened to the word "angel" (seraphim is an "angel", cherubim is an "angel"), "animal" (dog, rabbit, fish), or "plant" (cabbage, rose, fir).

In the first connotation, Jesus is God. But in the second, it is ONLY the Father.

Sounds like the first connotation is "a god"; like satan, or krishna or dagon.  I would respectfully submit that Jesus is more than "a god".  He is the exact representation of the Father.  Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father".  The Father granted to Jesus all authority and power.  Jesus is God as in the 2nd connotation.

This is the last I will post on this.  Trying to reason with you is like trying to empty the ocean with an eye dropper.

[Samie]

Jesus is God as in the 2nd connotation.

I don't blame nor fault you for making our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ equal with the Father.  Just reminding you of what He Himself said:

^NKJ John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

[Samie]

I think that the simple answer is:

The "Allah" described in some parts of the Quran is the same, but the "Allah" described in other parts of the Quran is not.

- joe

People describe Pres. Obama in many different ways, yet there is only one Barrack Obama, the US president.  The Quran may have different descriptions of "Allah", but He remains the one Allah - our God the Father, Supreme Ruler of the whole universe.

[Samie]

At Calvary, almost everyone rejected Jesus.  Only a few recognized who Jesus really was-among them, the dying thief who called Him Lord (Luke 23:42), and theRoman soldier who said, "'Truly this Man was the Son of God! .(Mark 15:39). When John wrote, "He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11), he was thinking not just about the crowd at the cross, or even of Israel, but of every generation that has lived. Except for a handful, all humanity, like that raucous crowd at Calvary, has failed to recognize in Jesus their God and Saviour. The Bible does not make any attempt to "prove" the existence or exact nature of God, but it does give a few details on who He is and what He is like. I remember how shocked I was one day when a Jehovahs Witness family member tried to tell be this stuff about "one God" and to make a long story short I found the idea of "one God" in the strictest sense that they and others teach it to be the hardest version to understand.

In contrast to the heathen of surrounding nations, Israel believed there was only one God (Deu_4:35; Deut 6:4; Isa 45:5; Zech 14:9). The New Testament makes the same emphasis on the unity of God (Mark 12:29-32; John 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Eph 4:4-6; 1Tim 2:5). This monotheistic emphasis does not contradict the Christian concept of the triune God or Trinity-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; rather, it affirms that there is no pantheon of various deities. Although the Old Testament does not explicitly teach that God is triune, it declares a plurality within the Godhead. At times God employs plural pronouns such as: "'Let Us make man in Our image'" (Gen 1:26); "'Behold the man has become like one of Us'" (Gen 3:22); "'Come, let Us go down'" (Gen 11:7). At times the Angel of the Lord is identified with God. Appearing to Moses, the Angel of the Lord said, "'I am the God of your father-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'" (Exodus 3:6).

Various references distinguish the Spirit of God from God. In the Creation story "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2). Some texts not only refer to the Spirit but include a third person in God's work of redemption: "'And now the Lord God [the Father] and His Spirit [the Holy Spirit] have sent Me [the Son of God]'" (Isa 48:16); "'I [the Father] have put My Spirit upon Him [the Messiah]; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles'" (Isa 42:1).

While the Godhead is not one in person, God is one in purpose, mind, and character. This oneness does not obliterate the distinct personalities of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Nor does the separateness of personalities within the Deity destroy the monotheistic thrust of Scripture, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God.

Deut 6:4 tells us: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"  The word "one" here is actually derived from a word which can mean: "together," "all together," "united," etc so it is easy to see how "one" in most texts about God is being used as in the collective sense. And that is the best fit with all scripture I have read on the subject.

Is there 1 or 3 in this verse?

^NAS Isaiah 45:21 ^a"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. ^bWho has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is ^cno other God besides Me, A righteous God and a ^dSavior; There is none except Me.

Should He have said "There is none except Us"?

[Lauralea]

I believe there are individual Muslims who worship God as they understand Him, but because the religion is not a true one it also has false conceptions of God, but some true conceptions.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." Romans 2:14

 

[Samie]

"God" and "Savior" = ?

"God" and "Savior" and "Father" = 3?   Me = Us?

Obama is not defined by people's opinions, but the "Allah of the Quran" is defined by the Quran itself.

- joe

The point is, different descriptions of the same individual do not make multiple individuals.  The same description of two different persons does not make the two persons one.

[Stan]

Allah remains the God of Abraham.

 

Translate God into Arabic (roman letters) and see what shows up.