Separated From God Again?

[pnattmbtc]

There was NO WAY to know just when that clot would break loose, and where it would be carried to (what kind of stroke it would produce).  First there would have to BE a clot formed.  Then it would depend upon patients position, movement, blood pressure, etc. etc. etc. etc.  But the LORD knew exactly WHEN I would need those days off, (so I would not loose the whole contract), and HE knew it, three  months in advance.  OR - the whole thing was just co-incidence. 

And there's another factor.  My husband came over to spend the weekend with me, just before Mom had her stroke.  He prayed that the LORD would allow my Mom to pass, because her dementia was getting worse, and worse.  She was already in assisted living facility.  He told the LORD that he would continue to go visit the old folks at the facility, even after Mom passed.  That was in 2002, and he STILL visits there.  Serves coffee at brkfast. 

So - Mom's passing was also an answer to prayer. 

I'm not sure what all is involved with clots, but it seems to me that someone with perfect knowledge could know what would happen within certain parameters.  Whatever is involved with the clot isn't random, but is based on knowable phenomena, which, of course, God would know perfectly.  God could just rely on His perfect knowledge of medicine (after all, He created us, so He has a good idea how clots work) to know what would happen.

Also if God responded to your husband's prayer, of course He would know exactly when your Mom would pass.

[pnattmbtc]

I believe that God created "time".  It is just one dimension.  Like the spiritual dimension (where spirits exist that we can't see) and the physical dimension. 

There are at least 5 dimensions, and probably many, many more. 

I believe that GOD exists outside of and thru every dimension.  He already exists in the future, just as He exists in the present.  So of course He "knows" what's not yet known, to us. 

Think of a river.  God is looking down on the river from space.  The river is TIME.  HE is not "in" the river.  He is looking down on the whole river.  He can "see" the river and what's in it, from one end to the other.  HE can "see" me now - at this moment, and He can see me three years from now.   He can "see" the Second Coming, and who's there. 

BEFORE He created "time" and the beings who live in that dimension - before the "beginning" of time, then there was no river, and nothing to "see" or "know". 

Our is a philosophical difference.  I believe GOD "knows" every detail of the future, because He is already "there".  

You believe that God is just infinitely good at reading the signs, and predicting, based upon probabilities.  

We humans cannot possibly "know" what or how much, God "knows".  So it's not something we can find conclusive "proof" for. 

But it is a very interesting question. 

The proof I presented would still hold regardless.  If there's only future, you have one book, in which the facts can be written in, and you can have the same rule: look at the book if it says you aren't looking, and don't look if it does, and you still can't have just one future.

[pnattmbtc]

Rachel; I agree that the circumstances about the timing between your work schedule and your mom's demise are more than coincidence.  They are an example of God arranging the timing of events to maximize your blessing and support of your mom.

pnatt; you make a good case.  However, I don't think God thinks deterministically (one cause leads to one result); I believe God thinks stochastically or in terms of probabilities.  He takes a "random walk" (does the equivalent of a Monte-Carlo simulation for all you statistical geeks ou there); and sees every scenario a person's life can take; and offers a solution for every risk taken or threat manifested.  Jesus is NOT in the Driver's seat; He's more like a GPS telling us how to get from here to the Kingdom.  When we make a wrong turn; He says something like "Recalculating - turn [to] right[eousness] at the next opportunity".  We make a choice for or against that directive; and the process starts over.  The challenge is to reach your destination (the Kingdom) before you run out of gas (die).

I agree.  Thinking deterministically would make sense if there were only one future, but given the future consists of many possibilities, a more complex method of thinking would be required. 

[Samie]

I'm not comfortable with the concept "born separated from God", even though it's used a lot.  I don't see how it makes sense when applied to an infant. We could say an adult is separate from God when he or she choose to live apart from God, but an infant is making no such choice.

If all having one's name written in the book of life meant to you was not being separate from God, that would be ok from my perspective, but it is the idea that every infant or child before the age of accountability, no matter how wicked, will be taken to heaven that doesn't make sense to me.  That would lead to the conclusion I've been pointing out, that the less we take care of the very young, so they don't die, the better.  Also it implies that one's character as a child (before the age of accountaility) is irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned, which is very odd.

I think Scriptures describe an infant as one who knows neither good nor evil, and hence cannot be described as wicked.  Being wicked, for me, implies one knows what is being done is evil.  And when one KNOWS what he is doing as either good or evil, then for me, he is no longer an infant, but has passed from infancy to the age of accountability.

^NKJ Deuteronomy 1:39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it

The conclusion you've been pointing out "that the less we take care of the very young, so they don't die, the better" is just the same as "that the less we take care of the believers, so they don't die, the better".

[8thdaypriest]

I think Scriptures describe an infant as one who knows neither good nor evil, and hence cannot be described as wicked.  Being wicked, for me, implies one knows what is being done is evil.  And when one KNOWS what he is doing as either good or evil, then for me, he is no longer an infant, but has passed from infancy to the age of accountability.

^NKJ Deuteronomy 1:39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it

The conclusion you've been pointing out "that the less we take care of the very young, so they don't die, the better" is just the same as "that the less we take care of the believers, so they don't die, the better".

You do realize those "young ones" were 20 years old and younger.  HERE - the "age of accountability" seems to be 20 years.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hello Samie. I have a little thought on this.

The idea of repeated defilements and cleansings is presented quite strongly in ‌2Peter, where it says,

"But it has happened to them according to the true proverb - The dog has returned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed [has returned] to her wallowing in the mire." (2Pet 2:22).

Jesus "purges" us from our sins doesn't He? and He washes us clean. I suggest that the 2Peter illustration points to an internal and an external cleansing. And of course Jesus is more than willing to clean the inside and outside (the motives, the thoughts, and the actions). But obviously, after we've been "purged" we can go back to it (just like the dog). It really is a disgusting picture, but the spiritual reality is equally disgusting; and unfortunately it is incredibly common among professed Christians. And as has already been pointed out, sin separates us from God.

_________

Another thought comes to mind as an aside.

The "prodigal son" went into "a far country", didn't he? He went a long way from God -- the separation caused by his sin was huge. But there are varying degrees of separation... and the greater our experience with God, the more we have to lose if we turn away from Him.

[Samie]

You do realize those "young ones" were 20 years old and younger.  HERE - the "age of accountability" seems to be 20 years.

I have always believed infants are those who know neither good nor evil.

[Samie]

Hello Samie. I have a little thought on this.

The idea of repeated defilements and cleansings is presented quite strongly in ‌2Peter, where it says,

"But it has happened to them according to the true proverb - The dog has returned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed [has returned] to her wallowing in the mire." (2Pet 2:22).

Jesus "purges" us from our sins doesn't He? and He washes us clean. I suggest that the 2Peter illustration points to an internal and an external cleansing. And of course Jesus is more than willing to clean the inside and outside (the motives, the thoughts, and the actions). But obviously, after we've been "purged" we can go back to it (just like the dog). It really is a disgusting picture, but the spiritual reality is equally disgusting; and unfortunately it is incredibly common among professed Christians. And as has already been pointed out, sin separates us from God.

The idea of repeated defilements and cleansings is our situation where we currently sin and Jesus Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25) CONTINUALLY justifies us by NOT imputing or counting against us the sin committed (2 Cor 5:18,19), that sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). In fact, God remembers that sin NO MORE (Heb 10:17).

But to be separated from God is to be spiritually dead, a condition where one cannot do anything spiritually good, being separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4). And separate from Him, He said we can do NOTHING! John 15:4,5. 

It is this condition that this thread is about. If we commit sin now, does that sin separate us from God and Christ again?  My answer is No. 

Christ already attached us to His body on the cross. And only He alone can detach us from His body. This He will do IF and only IF in this life we persistently refuse to overcome evil with good. When we die, judgment will be rendered (Heb 9:27): we will be dismembered from His Body, expelled from membership in the family of God, blotted out from the Book of Life.  But overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

[pnattmbtc]

Samie: I think Scriptures describe an infant as one who knows neither good nor evil, and hence cannot be described as wicked.  Being wicked, for me, implies one knows what is being done is evil.  And when one KNOWS what he is doing as either good or evil, then for me, he is no longer an infant, but has passed from infancy to the age of accountability.

I don't think this is true.  For example, imagine a Canaanite home which practices child sacrifices, etc., trained to hate God and to do evil of all sorts.  It seems to me a person before the age of acocuntability could be following in the practices of the partents, and be acting wickedly, without necessarily being at the age of accountability, which is usually considered to be pretty old, 13 being a traditional age.  But even if one chooses a younger age, it's easy for me to picture a child lying, even being a habitualy lier, without having reached the age of accountability.

Samie: NKJ Deuteronomy 1:39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it

The conclusion you've been pointing out "that the less we take care of the very young, so they don't die, the better" is just the same as "that the less we take care of the believers, so they don't die, the better".

I think you said this wrong.  It should be, the less we take care of the very young, so they don't live, the better.  These cases are very different, which seems to me like it should be obvious.  Think about the probabilities involved of young children being converted.  Let me just ask you a simple question.  What do you think the probability of a person going to heaven is? (an adult)

[Samie]

I don't think this is true.  For example, imagine a Canaanite home which practices child sacrifices, etc., trained to hate God and to do evil of all sorts.  It seems to me a person before the age of acocuntability could be following in the practices of the partents, and be acting wickedly, without necessarily being at the age of accountability, which is usually considered to be pretty old, 13 being a traditional age.  But even if one chooses a younger age, it's easy for me to picture a child lying, even being a habitualy lier, without having reached the age of accountability.

You seem to describe infants differently from how I understand Scriptures describe them. 

Again, infants are those whom Scriptures describe as having no knowledge of good and evil.  As to when one ceases to be at infancy and passes on to the age of accountability, only God can ascertain. I believe accountability is relative to one's spiritual level of maturity.  Higher level of spiritual maturity, greater accountability. Lower level of spiritual maturity, lesser accountability. Zero level of spiritual maturity, zero accountability. And infants, as Scriptures describe them, have zero level of spiritual maturity - they have no knowledge of good or evil.

[Samie]

I think you said this wrong.  It should be, the less we take care of the very young, so they don't live, the better.  These cases are very different, which seems to me like it should be obvious.

It is wrong.  Using your words above, " the less we take care of the very young, so they don't live, the better", it can be similarly said " the less we take care of the believers, so they don't live, the better".  And it is obvious to me, they are not different.

Think about the probabilities involved of young children being converted.  Let me just ask you a simple question.  What do you think the probability of a person going to heaven is? (an adult)

Again, I believe we all are born-heaven bound, being born attached to Christ with our names in the Book of Life. We are heaven-bound UNTIL deleted from the Book of Life. Hence, as to the probability of an adult person going to heaven, it is highly probable because we were all empowered to overcome evil with good being attached to Him Who is our Strength for overcoming evil. Unless one REFUSES to overcome.

[JoeMo]

  Higher level of spiritual maturity, greater accountability. Lower level of spiritual maturity, lesser accountability. Zero level of spiritual maturity, zero accountability. And infants, as Scriptures describe them, have zero level of spiritual maturity - they have no knowledge of good or evil.

Well then , I'm gonna quit studying my Bible and praying for the Holy Spirit if it makes accountable for more of the Law.  You make it sound like in God's eyes, ignorance of the Law will get you saved.  This seems illogical to me.

This He will do IF and only IF in this life we persistently refuse to overcome evil with good. When we die, judgment will be rendered (Heb 9:27): we will be dismembered from His Body, expelled from membership in the family of God, blotted out from the Book of Life.  But overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

So, is "overcoming evil with good" like a balance scale; where if the good side outweighs the bad side, we're "in"; or is it a "pass-fail" kind of thing thing, where if you haven't overcome every single known evil (sin) in your life by the time you die, you get to burn?

I think both of those alternatives are wrong.

Edited September 16, 2015 by JoeMo

[Samie]

I believe accountability is relative to one's spiritual level of maturity.  Higher level of spiritual maturity, greater accountability. Lower level of spiritual maturity, lesser accountability. Zero level of spiritual maturity, zero accountability. And infants, as Scriptures describe them, have zero level of spiritual maturity - they have no knowledge of good or evil.

Well then , I'm gonna quit studying my Bible and praying for the Holy Spirit if it makes accountable for more of the Law.  You make it sound like in God's eyes, ignorance of the Law will get you saved.  This seems illogical to me.

I could be wrong, but I guess it's what you want to read into my post above.

As with physical growth, we cannot stop spiritual growth. Although I could say I'll just remain a baby and stop growing so I could not be required to chop wood, still that would not prevent my growing up into manhood, unless I die sooner.   Same with spiritual growth. Our lives are not our own; it's God's. It's He Who makes us grow.

Who made the eunuch and Philip meet?  Since the eunuch had grown into a higher level of spiritual maturity, the HS made him & Philip meet. Faced with a new responsibility, the eunuch did not refuse it.

[Samie]

So, is "overcoming evil with good" like a balance scale; where if the good side outweighs the bad side, we're "in"; or is it a "pass-fail" kind of thing thing, where if you haven't overcome every single known evil (sin) in your life by the time you die, you get to burn?

I think both of those alternatives are wrong.

Maybe, though never like a balance scale thing. 

But in the final analysis, it's God Who ultimately decides who has overcome evil or not. And He assures us overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.  Rest assured, we are in the good hands of the Judge of all the earth. And He knows what is best for us.

[JoeMo]

As with physical growth, we cannot stop spiritual growth. Although I could say I'll just remain a baby and stop growing so I could not be required to chop wood, still that would not prevent my growing up into manhood, unless I die sooner.   Same with spiritual growth. Our lives are not our own; it's God's. It's He Who makes us grow.

I disagree.  While we do not have control over physical growth, we do have control over emotional, intellectual, and spiritual growth.  If I don't choose to put intellect and logic over emotions, I will be a tantrum-trowing baby all my life.  Unless I focus on continuing education, I will stall and eventually atrophy intellectually.  Unless I pray, meditate, and study God's word, I will never grow spiritually.  God does not force me to grow spiritually - that is my choice.  There are billions of examples of spiritually stunted people all over the planet. I consider myself to be spiritually stunted until I am changed in the twinkling of an eye.

It is true that God never separates Himself from me; but I am able to seperate myself from Him.

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,  neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:38-39).  Notice anything missing from this statement?  It is yourself (in the universal sense - not you personally) - YOU can sperate yourself from God.

Honestly, I don't care WHEN my name is written in the Book of Life - as long as it is there at the Second Coming.

[pnattmbtc]

I don't think this is true.  For example, imagine a Canaanite home which practices child sacrifices, etc., trained to hate God and to do evil of all sorts.  It seems to me a person before the age of acocuntability could be following in the practices of the partents, and be acting wickedly, without necessarily being at the age of accountability, which is usually considered to be pretty old, 13 being a traditional age.  But even if one chooses a younger age, it's easy for me to picture a child lying, even being a habitualy lier, without having reached the age of accountability.

Samie: You seem to describe infants differently from how I understand Scriptures describe them. 

I was describing those before the age of accountability.  I wrote, "It seems to me a person before the age of accountability." If I had been referring to infants, I would have used the word "infants".

Samie: Again, infants are those whom Scriptures describe as having no knowledge of good and evil.  As to when one ceases to be at infancy and passes on to the age of accountability, only God can ascertain. I believe accountability is relative to one's spiritual level of maturity.  Higher level of spiritual maturity, greater accountability. Lower level of spiritual maturity, lesser accountability. Zero level of spiritual maturity, zero accountability. And infants, as Scriptures describe them, have zero level of spiritual maturity - they have no knowledge of good or evil.

As soon as the accountability moves from 0 to something greater than 0, then would the criteria "overcomes evil with good" come into place?  If not, why not?  What does it mean to have some accountability?  It seems to me as soon as there is any accountability, at that point one needs to believe in Christ, correct? 

[Samie]

As with physical growth, we cannot stop spiritual growth. Although I could say I'll just remain a baby and stop growing so I could not be required to chop wood, still that would not prevent my growing up into manhood, unless I die sooner.   Same with spiritual growth. Our lives are not our own; it's God's. It's He Who makes us grow.

I disagree.  While we do not have control over physical growth, we do have control over emotional, intellectual, and spiritual growth.  If I don't choose to put intellect and logic over emotions, I will be a tantrum-trowing baby all my life.  Unless I focus on continuing education, I will stall and eventually atrophy intellectually.  Unless I pray, meditate, and study God's word, I will never grow spiritually.  God does not force me to grow spiritually - that is my choice.  There are billions of examples of spiritually stunted people all over the planet. I consider myself to be spiritually stunted until I am changed in the twinkling of an eye.

It is true that God never separates Himself from me; but I am able to seperate myself from Him

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,  neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:38-39).  Notice anything missing from this statement?  It is yourself (in the universal sense - not you personally) - YOU can sperate yourself from God.

Not quite. You seem to have forgotten what Jesus said:

John 10:28-29   ²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  ²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Being part of His body, we cannot by ourselves detach ourselves from Him, UNLESS, Christ Himself detaches us from His Body.  That would be by blotting out our names from the Book of Life.

[Samie]

As soon as the accountability moves from 0 to something greater than 0, then would the criteria "overcomes evil with good" come into place?

Yes, I think so.

What does it mean to have some accountability?

For me, having some accountability means knowing & doing something good:

^NIV James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

 

It seems to me as soon as there is any accountability, at that point one needs to believe in Christ, correct? 

Correct, based upon the condition that Christ must have been preached to Him first.

^NKJ Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

[JoeMo]

Not quite. You seem to have forgotten what Jesus said:

John 10:28-29   ²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  ²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Being part of His body, we cannot by ourselves detach ourselves from Him, UNLESS, Christ Himself detaches us from His Body.  That would be by blotting out our names from the Book of Life.

Hmmm.

“Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” (Heb. 13:5; Deut. 31:9)

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matt. 28:30)

Concerning the part about "any man plucking them out of my hand; it's talking about other men.  I can pluck myself out of God's hand by (in your words) not overcoming evil with good.

[Samie]

Hmmm.

“Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” (Heb. 13:5; Deut. 31:9)

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matt. 28:30)

That's true. He NEVER will forsake us and is always with us because we are in His body. But we cannot complain when He Himself decides to detach us from His Body by blotting our names from the Book of Life when we die because we did not overcome evil with good while alive.

Concerning the part about "any man plucking them out of my hand; it's talking about other men.

I believe "any man" and "no man" is quite inclusive:

John 10:28-29   ²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  ²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I can pluck myself out of God's hand by (in your words) not overcoming evil with good.

I think "no man" includes you & me.

I believe only Christ can delete one's name from the Book of Life. And that deleting effectively "plucks" one from God's hand, detaches one from being part of the Body of Christ.

As for "overcoming evil with good", I copied the phrase from the Bible:

^ASV Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^ESV Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^KJV Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^NAS Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^NIV Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^NKJ Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

^NRS Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.