Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: Yes, it's earlier. Then my post is the response to it. You may now respond. Here again: 17 minutes ago, Samie said: Is Justification the same as Forgiveness? Samie says, No, because: 1. We were yet sinners, hence yet unforgiven, when Christ died NAS Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 2. In that death we all died with Him, being His Body. NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. NAS 1 Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 3. But when He resurrected and we were made alive TOGETHER with Him, God has already forgiven us: NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions 4. And yet one purpose for which Jesus was resurrected was for our justification. KJV Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Therefore Forgiveness is not the same as Justification, otherwise, they would have occurred at the same time. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: Then my post is the response to it. You may now respond. Here again: Nice try! But no good, because your post doesn't address the issues I raised. Please read my post and respond to it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 Also please answer my question as to how you can have a theory of the Plan of Salvation which doesn't involved accepting Christ as your personal Savior as a part of it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: Nice try! But no good, because your post doesn't address the issues I raised. Please read my post and respond to it. Nice try of escape. From the pan to the fire. Address that post. Afraid? Quote
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 Or I'll give you a reprieve. Repost that post of yours and I'll see whether my post does not address it, as you claimed. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, Samie said: Nice try of escape. From the pan to the fire. Address that post. Afraid? Samie, you're being unreasonable. You made a post, which had as a part of the claim that justification is different than forgiveness. I took issue with what you wrote, and posted it. When you post things you insist people respond to what you wrote, but you don't want to extend the same courtesy to others that you want others to extend to you. When you post first, you refuse to answer until others address your post first. When you post last, you still refuse to answer. How can you think this is reasonable? I even offered to rewrite what I wrote. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: Samie, you're being unreasonable. You made a post, which had as a part of the claim that justification is different than forgiveness. I took issue with what you wrote, and posted it. When you post things you insist people respond to what you wrote, but you don't want to extend the same courtesy to others that you want others to extend to you. When you post first, you refuse to answer until others address your post first. When you post last, you still refuse to answer. How can you think this is reasonable? I even offered to rewrite what I wrote. No, thanks. Just repost it. Or provide a link. Quote
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 I prefer a repost, or a link. Can you do it, Doc? Quote
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Posted November 19, 2015 2 minutes ago, Samie said: No, thanks. Just repost it. Or provide a link. 2 minutes ago, Samie said: I prefer a repost, or a link. Can you do it, Doc? Please. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 I'll just rewrite it, that's easier. There are three points. One, from the Spirit of Prophecy, is her statement that "justification and pardon are one and the same". Two, Romans 4, where Paul uses the terms interchangeably: Quote 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Three was from Luke 18 itself, where the publican asked for mercy, and Jesus replied that he walked away justified. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, Samie said: Please. You can go back and look for it. It's a couple of posts before yours. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 Quote Therefore Forgiveness is not the same as Justification, otherwise, they would have occurred at the same time. Regarding this statement, we are justified and forgiven when we believe. For example: Quote 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: (Luke 18) The publican asked for mercy (which is forgiveness), and "went down to his justified". Note this is before the cross!! The publican was justified by faith. He asked for mercy, and was pardoned, and went to his house justified. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 Is Justification the same as Forgiveness? You attempted to prove that they are the same: 37 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Regarding this statement, we are justified and forgiven when we believe. For example: The publican asked for mercy (which is forgiveness), and "went down to his justified". Note this is before the cross!! The publican was justified by faith. He asked for mercy, and was pardoned, and went to his house justified. Your own sequence: Pardoned, then justified. That is: Forgiveness first, then Justification. Therefore, Justification is not the same as Forgiveness, otherwise, they would have occurred at the same time. You have just proven your own contention wrong, and proven mine correct. Read my post. It's there, and the Biblical basis of my postion. That post addressed the issue which you said I did not address. You may read that post again, here. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 3 minutes ago, Samie said: Is Justification the same as Forgiveness? Your attempted to prove that they are the same: Your own sequence: Pardoned, then justified. That is: Forgiveness first, then Justification. Therefore, Justification is not the same as Forgiveness, otherwise, they would have occurred at the same time. You have just proven your own contention wrong, and proven mine correct. Read my post. It's there, and the Biblical basis of my postion. That post addressed the issue which you said I did not address. You may read that post again, here. I didn't say "pardon, then justified". I have no choice in writing a sentence but to put some words before others. There's no "then" in what I wrote. I wrote this: " we are justified and forgiven when we believe." There's no sequence here. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 3 minutes ago, Samie said: Is Justification the same as Forgiveness? Your attempted to prove that they are the same: Your own sequence: Pardoned, then justified. That is: Forgiveness first, then Justification. Therefore, Justification is not the same as Forgiveness, otherwise, they would have occurred at the same time. You have just proven your own contention wrong, and proven mine correct. Read my post. It's there, and the Biblical basis of my postion. That post addressed the issue which you said I did not address. You may read that post again, here. I read your post. It has nothing which corresponds to what happened to the publican, right? You can't explain what happened to the publican in terms of your post, can you? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 40 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The publican was justified by faith. He asked for mercy, and was pardoned, and went to his house justified. Just like in Peanuts Gang. What's that behind you? Nothing. What's that??? Well. . ., errr, ahhh, nothing, nothing much. Got it, Doc? Quote
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 Good luck, Doc. This layman has to go out now for a living. APEC meeting here just concluded and banks have opened. See you later, when I get back. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: Just like in Peanuts Gang. What's that behind you? Nothing. What's that??? Well. . ., errr, ahhh, nothing, nothing much. Got it, Doc? I realize English is your second language. There's nothing in what I wrote from which to infer a sequence between between justified and pardoned. When I was writing this, I was aware in my thinking and writing that they were the same thing. if you doubt that what I wrote implies a sequence, ask someone else. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 18 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: I realize English is your second language NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions From the verse above, were the Colossian believers made alive TOGETHER with Christ? Samie, whose first language is not English, answers Yes. Let’s hear from Pnatt, whose first language is English. Maybe his answer is No. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 Samie, I've ask a couple of questions. We were talking about forgiveness/justification. In Luke 18, the publican asks for mercy, and Jesus said he went away justified. Here's the episode: Quote 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified This doesn't fit in with what you're suggesting, does it? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 Regarding made together with Christ, I addressed this a long time ago. I can repost what I wrote, or cited. In short, Luke 18 explains that the sinner asks for mercy, and is pardoned/justified when this happens. So your idea regarding Col. can't be correct, because it doesn't harmonize with what Jesus said. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 Hehehe... Pnatt refuses to answer my simple question, but compels me to answer his avalanche of questions. Yet he said he wants to discuss with me, if I remember right. Why repost what you wrote when you can just post a simple "Yes" or "No"? Again, were the Colossian believers made alive TOGETHER with Christ? Quote
Samie Posted November 20, 2015 Author Posted November 20, 2015 Maybe, Pnatt will again say, as he used to, my question is wrong because the premise upon which the question is asked is wrong. Just guessing. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 20, 2015 Posted November 20, 2015 I already answered your question earlier in the thread in detail. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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