Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Samie]

 

Most Christians would say that the only way to overcome evil with good, is to have Christ indwelling in us through His Spirit.

Apart from Christ Who is our Life, we are spiritually dead and can do nothing; and since we can do nothing, God Who so loved us DID something: made us spiritually alive through Christ. Then the HS can communicate with us.

And some would say that Buddhists, Muslims, and Papua New-Guinea headhunters, while having a form of righteousness, lack any true righteousness.

And that is modern Phariseeism. Holier-than-thou attitude.

My guess is your reply would be that Christ lives and works in all people, irrespective of whether they believe in Him, or choose Him.

Yes, precisely.  And Scriptural basis will be provided if requested.  Actually already provided in many portions of this and in other threads.

My response to your (hypothetical) reply would be to do a concordance search for "believe" to see that folks have to believe on Him.  And how shall they believe if they have not heard (of Him),  Blessed are the feet of....

How many times do I need to repeat myself over and over again, that believing can only be done by those who already are spiritually alive?  People need to be spiritually alive first, otherwise they can do nothing like, believing, repenting, etc.  It is cart before the horse to teach people to believe first to become spiritually alive. Believing is simply the exercise of faith, an act doable only by the spiritually alive. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

[Samie]

My guess is that you became a Christian a long time ago believing that He was THE way, THE truth, THE life, THE only name given among men whereby we might be saved.  I.e a traditional conversion.

And Biblical, too.

Your current belief came to you after pondering the fate of all those, seemingly damned souls, who never heard of Him.  I think you are motivated by a noble cause, to vindicate God, and make Him sound fair.

How nice of you, my brother.

I think you should stay away from analogies like "lifeboats" since these are non-Biblical.

I guess Noah’s ark is in the Bible.         

Almost every parable that Christ gave seems to say the exact opposite to your life-raft parable.

When you come to fully understand the gospel, you would not see it that way.

Scattering seeds is preaching to those who are lost,

It is planting seeds in the hearts of all, both good (overcomers), and bad(non-overcomers)

Invite to a wedding demanding a response, no automatic entry,

Inviting to overcome, no automatic overcoming; one has to fight the good fight of faith.

grafted in implies they were outside,

Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree; Jews and Gentiles became one in the Body of Christ

sheep and goats implies all are not his,

overcomers are his, and non-overcomers are not.

build on Rock (there is only one Rock and that rock is not Buddha or Mohammed),

all – Jews and Gentiles – are part of one Body, the Body of Christ Who is the Rock

you are rare like salt of earth (most are earth),  

few overcomers, many non-overcomers

light of world in darkness (most of world dark, not saved0,

overcomers serve as light to those living as non-overcomers

strait gate (majority not saved),

because few decide to become overcomers

kingdom is at hand (meaning it was not before),

Jesus said so

sheep in midst of wolves (world filled with wolves),

overcomers in midst of non-overcomers

come unto me.. (why the need to come if we are already there?),           

I die daily, said Paul. Why die again today, if he already died yesterday?

take my yoke (why take His yoke if already saved),

overcome evil with good or be blotted out (meaning already written and hence saved)

he that is not with me is against me (seems exclude non-Christians),

to not overcome evil with good is to be against Christ, whether one is a Christian or not

those who teach people

there are teachers in the body of Christ

wheat and tares (them and us),

overcomers and non-overcomers in the harvest of the world

net cast into sea (them and us, good and bad fishes),

overcomers and non-overcomers in the body of Christ

except ye be converted, and become as little children ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3), meaning the default is you are not fit to enter till something changes in you etc. etc.

the default is like little children because we started life as little children, not adults, meaning at adulthood many acted unfit for the kingdom, hence to revert back to the default setting, etc. etc.

[Wingnut]

How many times do I need to repeat myself over and over again, that believing can only be done by those who already are spiritually alive?  People need to be spiritually alive first, otherwise they can do nothing like, believing, repenting, etc.  It is cart before the horse to teach people to believe first to become spiritually alive. Believing is simply the exercise of faith, an act doable only by the spiritually alive. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

 

I agree with everything you said above.

But the below two verses say to me that the default setting for mankind is that they are spiritually dead and it takes God to quicken us spiritually.

That is what we refer to as God calling us.  He works in us both to will and to do.

If we were by default spiritually alive, why would it take a special act on God's part to "quicken" us?

Ephesians 2:1

 

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

 

[Wingnut]

Samie

Explain how you read the following verse please.  In particular the second part of the verse.

 

 

Revelation 17:8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

[Samie]

I agree with everything you said above.

But the below two verses say to me that the default setting for mankind is that they are spiritually dead and it takes God to quicken us spiritually.

That is what we refer to as God calling us.  He works in us both to will and to do.

If we were by default spiritually alive, why would it take a special act on God's part to "quicken" us?

Ephesians 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The point of reference of Paul's statements above is the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Had Christ not died and rose again, then all would have remained spiritually dead. There was yet NO Christian believer when Christ died & resurrected, yet Paul told the Ephesian & Colossian believers they were quickened together with Christ. The application then is for all humanity. It was His life, death and resurrection that activated the default setting. Had he not came down to earth, there would have been no default setting.

[Wingnut]

Samie

I remember from a past post you saying God knows everything we ever will do, before we do it.  

Thus God knows who are lost and who are saved from the beginning.

If God knows everything everyone will do, before they do it, then He knows when we will cry out to Him, and He knows beforehand what He will do.

Thus God is sentenced to do whatever the future has mapped out for Him to do, when it was foretold He would do it.  God is essentially a puppet in a puppet show, and His response could be replaced with a machine, since He cannot change it or the future.

Thus from the foundation of the world, if everything in the future is predicted, God can never experience something new, since He already knows all things.

Thus God is not really a "Creator" because to create means to make something new.  He is more like a recycler.

We are all really just going through the motions as if in a play, since the future is scripted.

God is really just spending eternity watching a movie where He already knows everything that will happen.

Does this sound exciting to you.

 

I on the other hand see God and us interacting together and making the future together.  Anything is possible.

 

[Samie]

Samie

Explain how you read the following verse please.  In particular the second part of the verse.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

I had made clear long time ago in this forum that when I use the word "all" it simply refers to Adam & Eve and all their descendants. The 2nd part of the verse tells us names were written in the BOL from the foundation of the world, but there are earth-dwellers who were not written. Who are these earth-dwellers? My simple answer is they belong to a pseudo-Adamic race that came into existence when evil angels intermarried with human women (Gen 6:2, 4), and hence are offspring of demons. There is no plan of redemption for Satan and his host.

[Samie]

Samie

I remember from a past post you saying God knows everything we ever will do, before we do it.  

Scriptures say so.

Thus God knows who are lost and who are saved from the beginning.

But we do not know who.

If God knows everything everyone will do, before they do it, then He knows when we will cry out to Him, and He knows beforehand what He will do.

Agree.

Thus God is sentenced to do whatever the future has mapped out for Him to do,

Disagree. God is the ruler, NOT the future.

 when it was foretold He would do it.  

Disagree. Have you read Jer 18:7-10?

God is essentially a puppet in a puppet show, and His response could be replaced with a machine, since He cannot change it or the future.

That’s the result of superficial Bible study. Dig deeper, my brother. Hence, your observations below are rendered moot and academic by what God Himself told Jeremiah.

Thus from the foundation of the world, if everything in the future is predicted, God can never experience something new, since He already knows all things.

Thus God is not really a "Creator" because to create means to make something new.  He is more like a recycler.

We are all really just going through the motions as if in a play, since the future is scripted.

God is really just spending eternity watching a movie where He already knows everything that will happen.

Does this sound exciting to you.

 

I on the other hand see God and us interacting together and making the future together.  Anything is possible.

[Samie]

^NKJ Jeremiah 18:

⁷ "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 

⁸ "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 

⁹ "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 

¹⁰ "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

[Wingnut]

I had made clear long time ago in this forum that when I use the word "all" it simply refers to Adam & Eve and all their descendants. The 2nd part of the verse tells us names were written in the BOL from the foundation of the world, but there are earth-dwellers who were not written. Who are these earth-dwellers? My simple answer is they belong to a pseudo-Adamic race that came into existence when evil angels intermarried with human women (Gen 6:2, 4), and hence are offspring of demons. There is no plan of redemption for Satan and his host.

Is there some way we can identify these offspring of the Nephilim?  Surely they all died in the flood?

[Samie]

Is there some way we can identify these offspring of the Nephilim?  Surely they all died in the flood?

Evil angels did not die in the flood. They are reserved for the lake of fire (Matt 25:41), NOT reserved for the flood. Nothing can prevent them from intermarrying with human women again after the flood. Even Paul talked about the existence of these evil powers (Eph 6:12).

[Wingnut]

God must have cast the future in stone, to know it.  The He has subjected Himself to doing what He decided to do from the foundation of the world.

In a sense, God is offering "choices" knowing what we will choose.  Thus we don't REALLY have free will, only the illusion of it.  Thus we don't REALLY have a choice whether to choose God or Satan, since it is scripted beforehand what we will choose.

If God knows the future why bother to write names in the BOL when He knows He will blot these out later?  Why not just write in once and for all their names from the foundation of the world?

All this blotting out gives the impression that some real time decision making and changing of God's mind is going on.

[Wingnut]

Evil angels did not die in the flood. They are reserved for the lake of fire (Matt 25:41), NOT reserved for the flood. Nothing can prevent them from intermarrying with human women again after the flood. Even Paul talked about the existence of these evil powers (Eph 6:12).

How would they marry with women today and produce offspring?

[Samie]

God must have cast the future in stone, to know it.  The He has subjected Himself to doing what He decided to do from the foundation of the world.

In a sense, God is offering "choices" knowing what we will choose.  Thus we don't REALLY have free will, only the illusion of it.  Thus we don't REALLY have a choice whether to choose God or Satan, since it is scripted beforehand what we will choose.

If God knows the future why bother to write names in the BOL when He knows He will blot these out later?  Why not just write in once and for all their names from the foundation of the world?

All this blotting out gives the impression that some real time decision making and changing of God's mind is going on.

The writing is for our benefit; not for Him. He knows, we don't. He has empowered all and hence all are responsible. In the final analysis, no one can confront Him and say, You did not write me in the BOL; you did not empower me; why expect me to overcome when you knew I could not?  Why I am in this mess of hell is all your fault. Why did you create me in the first place only to toss me into this inferno?

[Samie]

How would they marry with women today and produce offspring?

They have done it before. They can do it again.

[Wingnut]

They have done it before. They can do it again.

I am struggling to see how, if there are angels taking women, how this impacts our discussion.

On the Nephilim, I thought one reason for the flood was to rid the earth of this hybrid race.  I cannot see God allowing it again.  And no woman has ever come forward to claim she was impregnated by non-human means.  Women reading this would be repulsed at the thought.

[Wingnut]

The only possible union of man and demon I have ever considered is the Man of Sin, Son of perdition.  He performs miracles like a demigod of mythology.  If there were others, where are their superpowers?

[Samie]

I am struggling to see how, if there are angels taking women, how this impacts our discussion.

On the Nephilim, I thought one reason for the flood was to rid the earth of this hybrid race.  I cannot see God allowing it again.  And no woman has ever come forward to claim she was impregnated by non-human means.  Women reading this would be repulsed at the thought.

One SDA minister, a personal friend of mine, told me of a woman in a town where he was the district pastor. This woman's husband was seriously sick and she does not sleep by his side. To make the long story short, this woman had a son by an evil angel. Ask Pastor Florante Andres about this. He is now retired. His wife, Mrs. Miriam Andres, recently retired, is the former Children's Ministries and Family Ministries Director of the Southern Asia Pacific Division.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, I don't see how your idea conforms to 1 Cor. 12, which presents the body of Christ as consisting of believers.

Samie: I suggest you just open your spiritual eyes wider. If others were able to see it, why can't you?

I have no idea what this means.  What are you talking about?  Please don't be cryptic.  Specifically:

1.What others?

2.What did they see?

Hopefully this has something to do with 1 Cor. 12. 

[pnattmbtc]

At least we  know what  everyone believes so we are not chasing our tails 

As I see it, Samie, phkrause and LifeHiscost believe one can enter the kingdom as non-Christians, say through having a clear conscience.

Pnattmbtc and myself believe Christ is sending out invitations to a wedding feast/party, and only those who CHOOSE to go and who are allowed in by the Host will end up there. 

And I remember in the Sabbath  study last month on evangelism reading a quote from Ellen indicating that she is inclined towards Samie's team.  Rom 2:15 was what I figured she was referring to.

Not exactly, for me.  What I believe is represented here:

 

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of theworld." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (Desire of Ages 175-176)

The salient point here for me, regarding this discussion, is this part: " If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour".  

The point is that the Lord is drawing all to Himself, so that to be lost involves more than simply not laying hold of something offered, but actually resistance.  One cannot be lost by doing nothing.  One must resist/reject/fight against the Holy Spirit.  One must be active to be lost.

Regarding non-Christians, from the Spirit of Prophecy there is this:

Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)

I believe this is true, and I believe Romans 1 is communicating the same idea. 

[pnattmbtc]

Did anyone who lived before the cross hear about the invitation? If so, how?

The same way as after.  How the Gospel is communicated didn't change.  What changed was the cross became something which had happened as opposed to something which was yet future. 

[Wingnut]

I believe this is true, and I believe Romans 1 is communicating the same idea. 

And you feel that this satisfies John 3:16?

That is my problem with Samie. He too has folks entering Christ's kingdom who have never heard of Him, or believed in Him.

 

[Wingnut]

The same way as after.  How the Gospel is communicated didn't change.  What changed was the cross became something which had happened as opposed to something which was yet future. 

I have no problem with OT folks interacting with Jesus as the LORD or Word of the LORD.

My belief is that not one soul will enter the Kingdom without believing in either the OT or NT Jesus, as John 3:16 prescribes.

[pnattmbtc]

Wingnut: If it were true that we could enter His kingdom without a personal relationship with Christ, then why are Adventists always beating themselves up saying they are holding up the return of Christ by not preaching the Gospel in all the world?  Samie's belief would imply that they could get to Heaven without the Gospel.

This is an important question, and I think there's an answer to this which makes sense.  From Romans 1 (and other places as well) and the SOP I quoted from DA 638, there will be some who will be saved who have not had the Gospel explicilty preached to them as Paul preached it, for example.  Well, first of all, by digression, let me ask, how does anyone hear the Gospel in a way that saves?  It must be through the Holy Spirit, and if we consider Abraham for example, we can see it's possible for a heathen to be saved, without having access to the Scriptures, because God is able to preach the Gospel directly to whomever as needed.  And, indeed, if any of us are saved, it is because God Himself has preached the Gospel to us; He may use human beings, or Scripture, or some other means to do so, but if we are saved, it will be because we have believed the Gospel that God Himself has preached to us (Galatians 3, for example, deals with this idea).

Now back to the question, if people can be saved without our doing something, like preach to them, then why should we preach to them?  First of all, just becaus someone *might* be saved without our preaching the Gospel to them, do not mean the *will* be saved.  There may well be people who will be lost because of our actions.  I think a lot of the tears being wiped away will have to do with this sad fact.  It is reality that what we do makes a difference.

Secondly, what is the purpose of communicating the Gospel to others?  It is that they may more of God, that they may know the wondeful truth about who He is, and what He has done for them in giving the most awesome of all gifts, His Son.  Just on the face of it, how can we keep quiet regarding such news?  And the truth is that people's lives are certainly better hearing and believing the Good News than not.

[pnattmbtc]

And you feel that this satisfies John 3:16?

That is my problem with Samie. He too has folks entering Christ's kingdom who have never heard of Him, or believed in Him.

I think anyone who is converted does so by believing in Christ, but how that happens differs from person to person, depending upon circumstances.  In other words, they may not know they are believing in Christ, but they are (if, for example, they are saved along the lines that DA 638 describes).