Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

There is such a thing as being willingly ignorant.  We ignore truths which do not suit us, such as things which demand a lifestyle change.  For instance, we may know that Christ commands 1050 things.  But we may choose wilful ignorance and say these are optional.  God has never spoken of two paths to salvation, one for the ignorant, one for the believer.  The Bible from Gen to Rev lists no ignorant who are among the faithful/(overcomer to you).

 

2 Peter 3:5

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

God knows who are the willingly ignorant.  And I believe they are among the non-overcomers.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

I agree with you here Samie.  But God never leaves them in complete ignorance of Him, and then saves them.  Not one ignoramus made it to heaven.  God removes the blindness, calls them, exposes them to truth and then they choose.  No record of any never having known Him making it to heaven.  That is a Samie fabrication.  And a page 638/563 fabrication.  It goes against the whole theme of the Bible.

Had you waited for my earlier answers to your earlier questions you would have not coined the term "Samie fabrication".  God is the best Father, and even the common earthly father will not allow one of his children in ignorance when he is able to provide them the way out of ignorance.  Sorry, but the accusation you hurl against me is a "Wingnut fabrication".  The Bible makes clear that the knowledge about God is given to all His creatures.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

 

OT and NT faithful follow very much the same pattern of knowing the God of the Bible, choosing Him, Having faith in Him, Obeying Him.

No record of folks whisked into the kingdom who were atheists or non-believers in Him

They are non-overcomers, so why would they be allowed there when their names were blotted out from the BOL?

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

God revealed ENOUGH truth to each person in say the faith chapter for them to respond appropriately to Him.

He (Christ) was the God of the OT, the Messenger of the Father in heaven.  So every one of the OT faithful were responding to Christ.

You claim they were responding to the Father.  You are wrong, but it makes no difference. They were responding to the Godhead.

Believing in Christ occurs before (when He draws/calls)/during and after.  But it is never excluded like you Samie claim.  There can be no saving overcoming without Christ.  Sure you can overcome gluttony or whatever, but it scores no heavenly points when you overcome on your own steam without God.  And atheists are without God.  As is every religion without Christ.  Its a Satanic forgery, devised to lure folks to their deaths.  And you Samie, are a pusher of salvation without Christ. 

Sorry, but are you having amnesia?  Did you so soon forget what you said about my position?

19 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Samie

You say all the right things about Christ.  You sing the praises of Christ.  You attribute all power and salvation to Christ.  You call Christ Lord.  You correctly call Christ the head of the Body. 

What you say about Christ is wonderful.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

But if I were to come to you Pure Gospel Preacher Samie and say "Please tell me what I must do to be saved?" you would tell me to "overcome".  

And that God through Christ had already saved you.  Your name is already written in the BOL. He has already empowered you to overcome evil being attached to the Body of His Son Who is our Strength for overcoming evil with good.

 And I would beg and plead with you to be more specific (since its my eternal life at stake) and you would be just as evasive with me as you have been for the last 50 posts.

Not evasive. Persuasive, maybe.

I would turn to pnattmbtc for help and his message would be crystal clear - the traditional Gospel message.

Then, believe Pnatt. Otherwise you'll be in trouble.  If it is Pnatt's position that the Holy Spirit guides you into, why resist His leading?  By resisting the HS, you will be proving to yourself that you are yet a non-overcomer. The reason why the HS led you to Pnatt is because Pnatt’s view is for your own best interest in your current spiritual level of maturity.  Samie was once in your level of spiritual maturity, but by the grace of God, I have grown a little mature.

 

[Wingnut]

8 minutes ago, Samie said:

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

 No record of any never having known Him making it to heaven.  That is a Samie fabrication.  And a page 638/563 fabrication.  It goes against the whole theme of the Bible.

Had you waited for my earlier answers to your earlier questions you would have not coined the term "Samie fabrication".  God is the best Father, and even the common earthly father will not allow one of his children in ignorance when he is able to provide them the way out of ignorance.  Sorry, but the accusation you hurl against me is a "Wingnut fabrication".  The Bible makes clear that the knowledge about God is given to all His creatures.

Samie I know what you are saying.  Even you claim I do.  All (except Nephilim) start in the life-boat.  All they have to do is overcome.

It comes as a bit of a surprise to me what you say in that last sentence that knowledge of God is given to all His creatures.

The Bible does not say that.  But to save us dancing around in circles, let us say that was true.  Then everyone would know about Christ, since the Bible claims he is THE way, THE gate, not a way.  So any knowledge the primitive tribes have regarding their shamanistic, animistic notion of God and religion is not true religion, but a deception of Satan.  God has concluded this world in unbelief for now, to preserve their consciences intact.  I even disagree with your earlier post which claims atheists who die are damned.  They are blinded, by God, for now, to keep their consciences intact.  As Ezek 37 says, God will cloth them with flesh to "Hear the word of the Lord".  The lost of Ezek 37 were in darkness and ignorance of God before.

You cannot name one unbeliever who has made it.  Name one and prove me wrong. 

The Bible claims that most of the world is in ignorance of Him, in darkness.  All except Israel were in the OT.

Thus I stick by the claim that there is "No record of any never having known Him making it to heaven."

But in future I will factor into my replies that you believe that "the knowledge of God is given to all His creatures".

 

As a matter of interest, do you believe that God is in all of us?

I ask that from what you said in an earlier post about us all being part of The Body, of which Christ is the head.

This would make every person on earth to be part of the Body of Christ by your reasoning, and therefore together comprising God.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Samie I know what you are saying.  Even you claim I do.  All (except Nephilim) start in the life-boat.  All they have to do is overcome.

It comes as a bit of a surprise to me what you say in that last sentence that knowledge of God is given to all His creatures.

The Bible does not say that.  

Here's the verse you said does not exist:

^NIV Romans 1:18-20   ¹⁸ The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  ¹⁹ since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  ²⁰ For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Wingnut]

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

Sorry, but are you having amnesia?  Did you so soon forget what you said about my position?

 

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

God revealed ENOUGH truth to each person in say the faith chapter for them to respond appropriately to Him.

He (Christ) was the God of the OT, the Messenger of the Father in heaven.  So every one of the OT faithful were responding to Christ.

You claim they were responding to the Father.  You are wrong, but it makes no difference. They were responding to the Godhead.

Believing in Christ occurs before (when He draws/calls)/during and after.  But it is never excluded like you Samie claim.  There can be no saving overcoming without Christ.  Sure you can overcome gluttony or whatever, but it scores no heavenly points when you overcome on your own steam without God.  And atheists are without God.  As is every religion without Christ.  Its a Satanic forgery, devised to lure folks to their deaths.  And you Samie, are a pusher of salvation without Christ. 

Sorry, but are you having amnesia?  Did you so soon forget what you said about my position?

19 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Samie

You say all the right things about Christ.  You sing the praises of Christ.  You attribute all power and salvation to Christ.  You call Christ Lord.  You correctly call Christ the head of the Body. 

What you say about Christ is wonderful.

You claim that salvation is possible without accepting Christ as their personal saviour.  You claim that possibly the vast majority of people who ever lived ignorant of the name Christ or without having heard of the Bible, will "overcome" and receive eternal life.

From a recent post you claim all have knowledge of God.

When I say you are a pusher of salvation without Christ, let us not dance around words.  By that I mean if you are not of the Christian persuasion, you cannot be saved.  So I am being consistent.

 

I know that you attribute to Christ the saving power.  You probably call Him the Saviour of all mankind.  I don't fault your words.

The following verse is where I have a problem with what you say.

 

Matthew 5:19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You may do them yourself, but what you teach others is "Meh".

  

 

 

[Samie]

12 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

. . .

As a matter of interest, do you believe that God is in all of us?

I ask that from what you said in an earlier post about us all being part of The Body, of which Christ is the head.

This would make every person on earth to be part of the Body of Christ by your reasoning, and therefore together comprising God.

Brother, a vast majority had been blotted out from the BOL.  They have ceased being part of the Body of Christ.  Christ had removed them from His Body and expelled them from membership in the Family of God.

As to your phrase "therefore together comprising God", I don't buy it.

[Samie]

Before I continue, can you please clear out what you mean by your "Meh"? I don't understand it.

 

[Wingnut]

7 minutes ago, Samie said:

17 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Samie I know what you are saying.  Even you claim I do.  All (except Nephilim) start in the life-boat.  All they have to do is overcome.

It comes as a bit of a surprise to me what you say in that last sentence that knowledge of God is given to all His creatures.

The Bible does not say that.  

Here's the verse you said does not exist:

^NIV Romans 1:18-20   ¹⁸ The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  ¹⁹ since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  ²⁰ For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

If that was what Paul was talking about then there would be no need to preach the Gospel, since "God has made it plain to them".

We would not even need the Bible, because "what has been made" would preach the Gospel.

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

But wait, that is what you preach.

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Before I continue, can you please clear out what you mean by your "Meh"? I don't understand it.

 

Meh is an interjection used as an expression of indifference or boredom. It may also mean "be it as it may". It is often regarded as a verbal shrug of the shoulders. The use of the term "meh" shows that the speaker is apathetic, uninterested, or indifferent to the question or subject at hand.

[Samie]

Just now, Wingnut said:

If that was what Paul was talking about then there would be no need to preach the Gospel, since "God has made it plain to them".

We would not even need the Bible, because "what has been made" would preach the Gospel.

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

But wait, that is what you preach.

So, then, your reply simply proves, you really have just known the existence of this paramount truth about knowing God.  And when shown, you say it is absurd?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Meh is an interjection used as an expression of indifference or boredom. It may also mean "be it as it may". It is often regarded as a verbal shrug of the shoulders. The use of the term "meh" shows that the speaker is apathetic, uninterested, or indifferent to the question or subject at hand.

Then let's stop this discussion. You are just wasting my time.

[Samie]

Why should I continue interacting with a "Meh" discussant? Waste my time?

[Wingnut]

6 minutes ago, Samie said:

Brother, a vast majority had been blotted out from the BOL.  They have ceased being part of the Body of Christ.  Christ had removed them from His Body and expelled them from membership in the Family of God.

As to your phrase "therefore together comprising God", I don't buy it.

Good - just checking if you were into the idea that god is in all of us inherently and all we have to is bring him out.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Then let's stop this discussion. You are just wasting my time.

Samie, I was saying that you are "meh" towards certain ideas, such as it is imperative that every human who wishes to be saved has to accept Christ as their personal saviour, repent, become Christians.  Those are the only places I used "meh" of you.  Maybe something was lost in translation.

I think you are passionately interested in this subject of all are written in the BOL and all have to overcome.

I am trying not to be offensive.  But I do have a habit of annoying folks by trying to paint them into a corner with their own contradictions. 

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Samie, I was saying that you are "meh" towards certain ideas, such as it is imperative that every human who wishes to be saved has to accept Christ as their personal saviour, repent, become Christians.  Those are the only places I used "meh" of you.  Maybe something was lost in translation.

I think you are passionately interested in this subject of all are written in the BOL and all have to overcome.

I am trying not to be offensive.  But I do have a habit of annoying folks by trying to paint them into a corner with their own contradictions. 

And you have never for once pointed out any contradiction in what I preach. Have you?

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

And you have never for once pointed out any contradiction in what I preach. Have you?

I will grant you that you are VERY consistent.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

I will grant you that you are VERY consistent.

Tongue in cheek?  Thanks, anyway, brother?

[Wingnut]

I think the reason you are so consistent Samie, is because you have a circle going, and it spins perfectly smoothly.

I am still trying to best phrase this chicken and egg appeal to "overcome" which you use.

By this circular reasoning, it is almost impossible for me to point out any inconsistency in your argument, but I will keep on trying if you will.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I think the reason you are so consistent Samie, is because you have a circle going, and it spins perfectly smoothly.

I am still trying to best phrase this chicken and egg appeal to "overcome" which you use.

By this circular reasoning, it is almost impossible for me to point out any inconsistency in your argument, but I will keep on trying if you will.

I will patiently wait until you succeed. But I'm afraid I'll be waiting forever.

[Wingnut]

The circular argument is roughly as follows...

All are born saved

All they have to do is overcome

And since we cannot define overcome,

Since it is unique to us and our conscience,

then all who make it must have overcome

And all who don't must not have overcome.

But since there is no one standard for all

It would be utterly impossible for me to prove that those who made it were or were not overcomers.

 

But none of the above has anything to do with the Bible.

You have just thrown in Jesus to make it sound like a Christian discussion.

Calling Him the saviour of mankind, does not mean that he saves by the overcoming method above.

The Bible (to me) tells a very different story of a VERY prescribed way of life and belief,

which is not of works, or overcoming per se, but all overcoming of worth is through Jesus in us.

And that overcoming will manifest in a very distinctive Christian lifestyle.

And no other will do.

 

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

The circular argument is roughly as follows...

All are born saved

All they have to do is overcome

And since we cannot define overcome,

Since it is unique to us and our conscience,

then all who make it must have overcome

And all who don't must not have overcome.

But since there is no one standard for all

It would be utterly impossible for me to prove that those who made it were or were not overcomers.

That’s because only God knows who the overcomers and non-overcomers are.

But none of the above has anything to do with the Bible.

Just because you don’t know where it is in Scriptures does not prove it is not there.

You have just thrown in Jesus to make it sound like a Christian discussion.

Calling Him the saviour of mankind, does not mean that he saves by the overcoming method above.

You soon forget the 3 tenses of salvation I earlier mentioned?  It’s in many other threads as well.

The Bible (to me) tells a very different story of a VERY prescribed way of life and belief,

which is not of works, or overcoming per se, but all overcoming of worth is through Jesus in us.

Did I not say that we are in the Body of Christ, and that attached to Him Who is our Strength for overcoming, we have His Power to overcome evil with good?

And that overcoming will manifest in a very distinctive Christian lifestyle.

And no other will do.

Are you fond of measuring others by your own yardstick, my brother?

 

[Wingnut]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

And that overcoming will manifest in a very distinctive Christian lifestyle.

And no other will do.

Are you fond of measuring others by your own yardstick, my brother?

You know me by now.  I am a very "absolute" seeker.

And my first yardstick for a Christian, is whether they have manners, or are rude.  I fall down at this first hurdle often myself.

But you clear this hurdle with flying colours