Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 And thanks for your hint. It's informative. But I don't need them to prove you wrong. Scriptures are enough. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 3 minutes ago, Samie said: You can say what you want Scriptures to have said but did not. Scriptures are clear. Even Peter struggled with Paul. As have millions of Christians who say Paul came to do away with the law etc. Quote
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Just now, Wingnut said: Even Peter struggled with Paul. As have millions of Christians who say Paul came to do away with the law etc. Does that make Paul wrong and you correct? Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 If it is so simple, explain to me how folks instinctively know God. And most instinctively choose the wrong gods. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 2 minutes ago, Samie said: Does that make Paul wrong and you correct? No. I am saying Paul is right and please read what the whole book of Romans says. Take a scripture out of context and I can waterboard Paul into saying anything I like. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Quote "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. (DA 387) This quote to me is 100% in harmony with what I understand God's character to be. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. He will leave no stone unturned to save a soul, which the cross shows. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 3 minutes ago, Wingnut said: If it is so simple, explain to me how folks instinctively know God. And most instinctively choose the wrong gods. Those who choose the wrong gods did not overcome the evil of not choosing God. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Quote God has to draw us - the default is ignorance and hatred of God. The point is that God *is* drawing all to Himself. One can only be lost by refusing to be drawn. That was the point made. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 This is what Paul ALSO says... 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. So Paul says they know God, and because of Satan don't know God. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 32 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Paul wrote that to prove Jews and Gentiles know they are sinners. Nowhere does Paul claim that they have salvation knowledge, only sin knowledge. How would this make sense viz a viz God's character? God gives enough knowledge to a person that he can be condemned, but not saved? Is that the idea? How would that even make sense? I don't think that's possible. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, Wingnut said: This is what Paul ALSO says... 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. So Paul says they know God, and because of Satan don't know God. This is in regards to those who have refused to be drawn. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: This is in regards to those who have refused to be drawn. And so, they are non-overcomers. They did not overcome the evil of refusing to be drawn. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Paul is like a lawyer, developing a case. I am a huge fan of Socrates. Paul is developing arguments in classical Greek style. He builds a foundation of consensus, but he has a final conclusion in mind. Readers of Paul just take scriptures out of context, not aware of the classical Greek philosophical argument. I summarised Romans. All sin. All are guilty. But grace is equally universally available. Only through faith in Jesus. No other way. Quote
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, Wingnut said: Paul is like a lawyer, developing a case. I am a huge fan of Socrates. Paul is developing arguments in classical Greek style. He builds a foundation of consensus, but he has a final conclusion in mind. Readers of Paul just take scriptures out of context, not aware of the classical Greek philosophical argument. I summarised Romans. All sin. All are guilty. But grace is equally universally available. Only through faith in Jesus. No other way. It's faith of Jesus, not ours. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: It's faith of Jesus, not ours. Paul speaks of both "faith of Jesus" (pistis iesou; genetive, arguments exist whether subjective or object, meaning whether it should be translated "in Jesus" or "of Jesus"), but also unambiguously "faith in Jesus" (no possible way to construe as "faith of Jesus"). For example, Romans 10:10. This is NOT the faith of Jesus, but faith in Jesus. And many other places in Romans. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: Paul speaks of both "faith of Jesus" (pistis iesou; genetive, arguments exist whether subjective or object, meaning whether it should be translated "in Jesus" or "of Jesus"), but also unambiguously "faith in Jesus" (no possible way to construe as "faith of Jesus"). For example, Romans 10:10. This is NOT the faith of Jesus, but faith in Jesus. And many other places in Romans. It's His faith given to us. We have none of our own. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Faith involves a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. If we choose to respond to the love of God, our hearts will be melted, and we will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross. This is how justification by faith works. This is a major theme of Romans. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 3 minutes ago, Samie said: It's faith of Jesus, not ours. Amen brother. You have the one and only name correct, and technically it is Christ's faith in us, mingled with our faith. We have to be believers, implying our cooperation in the process. In/of - its Christ in us, the hope of glory. I don't think we need to split hairs. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Quote I summarised Romans. All sin. All are guilty. But grace is equally universally available. Only through faith in Jesus. No other way. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this. I'm not. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 That has been discussed. You want us to repeat the discussion again? Quote
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 The faith we have did not emanate from our own selves. It is the faith of the Son of God. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 2 minutes ago, Samie said: That has been discussed. You want us to repeat the discussion again? I can talk about Jesus all day, but please let's not argue over prepositions. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: That has been discussed. You want us to repeat the discussion again? Yes. I don't recall if you ever commented on Romans 10. If you did, I'm sorry, but I don't remember your thought. Quote 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This is clearly not speaking of the faith of Jesus, but faith in Jesus. I've brought this up to you many times, but don't recall your responding, but if you did, I don't remember it (sorry), so, yes, I would like you to respond. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 1 minute ago, Wingnut said: I can talk about Jesus all day, but please let's not argue over prepositions. I was responding to Pnatt. Again, the faith we have is not our own. It is the faith of the Son of God. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Faith involves a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. If we choose to respond to the love of God, our hearts will be melted, and we will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross. This is how justification by faith works. This is a major theme of Romans. Faith is so central to the Christian message. Obviously God wants people with faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The fact that only those with faith receive eternal life is a proof against the whole future being cast in stone. God is going to take us to new situations where we are going to need faith to follow Him, now and forever. Quote
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