Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Wingnut]

Almost all humans are religious or superstitious.  All religions require faith.  Pagan faith is not God given.  Explain that.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's you who labeled them the second group. Can you show a Scriptural label?

If they are raised from the dead at some time in the future, that has to be a second group, as opposed to those who believe in their first lifetime.  8M comes after 1-7M.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Almost all humans are religious or superstitious.  All religions require faith.  Pagan faith is not God given.  Explain that.

We are not yet through with what you call OUR faith.

[Samie]

Just now, Wingnut said:

If they are raised from the dead at some time in the future, that has to be a second group, as opposed to those who believe in their first lifetime.  8M comes after 1-7M.

Again that's your own description. I want Scriptures.

[Samie]

Where's Scriptures for your 2nd group?

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Again that's your own description. I want Scriptures.

Ezekiel 37King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

[Wingnut]

Just now, Wingnut said:

Ezekiel 37King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

All future and referring to the 7M and beyond.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Ezekiel 37King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

There are 28 verses. Not one says about a 2nd group. You simply added the label 2nd group to those verses.

[Samie]

Can you explain how the 28 verses prove your 2nd group?

[Wingnut]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

There are 28 verses. Not one says about a 2nd group. You simply added the label 2nd group to those verses.

If you want to call them "dead men now risen" instead of second group, that's fine with me.  Point is they are the latter harvest just as there are two harvests in Israel.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

If you want to call them "dead men now risen" instead of second group, that's fine with me.  Point is they are the latter harvest just as there are two harvests in Israel.

Again, that is how you explain those verses.  The verses themselves don't say about any second group.  Can you show how those 28 verses really talk about your 2nd group?

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Can you explain how the 28 verses prove your 2nd group?

If Paul referred to himself as part of the first (predestinated) group, who FIRST trusted in Christ, these LATER (second) group believe in a lesser way.  Christ is now living and ruling on earth.  As Rev 20:5 says, the rest of the dead lived not till the 1000 years are past.  At this time Christ is on earth.  It takes  less faith to believe in Him.  Just take a trip to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, and you can see and believe Him.

[Wingnut]

Just now, Samie said:

Again, that is how you explain those verses.  The verses themselves don't say about any second group.  Can you show how those 28 verses really talk about your 2nd group?

I don't understand your fixation with "2nd group".  Why do they have to be 1,2 and not "first" "later"?

[Samie]

Just now, Wingnut said:

If Paul referred to himself as part of the first (predestinated) group, who FIRST trusted in Christ, these LATER (second) group believe in a lesser way.  Christ is now living and ruling on earth.  As Rev 20:5 says, the rest of the dead lived not till the 1000 years are past.  At this time Christ is on earth.  It takes  less faith to believe in Him.  Just take a trip to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, and you can see and believe Him.

You have to show how the 28 verses you offered as proof verses really talk about your 2nd group.  What you are doing now is just label those 28 verses as referring to your 2nd group.

[Wingnut]

As in a race, you get those who come first and those who come AFTER.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

I don't understand your fixation with "2nd group".  Why do they have to be 1,2 and not "first" "later"?

You yourself first used the "second group". I simply made it shorter "2nd group".

[Samie]

If you cannot prove your case by the 28 verses, then try another set of verses. That would be fine with me.

[Samie]

Or we better get back to topic. To the saving faith of Jesus and what you call "OUR faith".  Let's stick first with this issue.

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

If you cannot prove your case by the 28 verses, then try another set of verses. That would be fine with me.

I don't need to give you more.  If you will not believe those which are clear as can be, why do I need to find more obscure verses?

[Samie]

And we are left with but a short time. It's almost midnight from where I am now. 11:49 PM here in Bangkok.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I don't need to give you more.  If you will not believe those which are clear as can be, why do I need to find more obscure verses?

That's why I was asking you to explain since to you it is VERY clear. So Please explain how those 28 proves your 2nd group. Before I go to bed.

[Samie]

Or better yet, take your time. Think it over. While I just retire for a few hours. I need to rest. Good night, brother.

[Samie]

I hope to see your explanation by the time I wake up.  Good luck.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

That's why I was asking you to explain since to you it is VERY clear. So Please explain how those 28 proves your 2nd group. Before I go to bed.

Do you accept that it speaks of dead, lost people being given a second chance?

It's hard for me to know how you can read it otherwise.

See you in 12 hours time or whenever since just as you are rising, I am retiring, a first sleeping and a second/latter sleeping  

 

[Wingnut]

29 minutes ago, Samie said:

I hope to see your explanation by the time I wake up.  Good luck.

Better still, you explain to me verse by verse, especially the ones I highlighted in blue from Ezek 37.  If you take them literally, as I do, then the dead are being resurrected to hear the word of the Lord.  If not, explain how you read them.