Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Wingnut]

15 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

In this case, it's not necessary that a person respond to Christ in this lifetime, as they will get another change later.  Did I understand correctly?

That is correct.  But I can provide you with dozens of scriptures which promise far greater rewards to those who are called, chosen, "overcome"  , and endure to the end now.  We are the firstfruits which were predestined from the foundation of the world.

 

Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

Matthew 19:29

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

[Wingnut]

From the foundation of the world God pre-determined (predestinated) that salvation would occur in two phases, just like the fig tree produces firstfruits, and main, much bigger crop later.

We Christians are the small advanced guard or pioneers, who first believe in Christ.

Rom 8

29 For whom (that's us) he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he (us again) might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This sounds like it is calling Christ the firstborn.  But it can also be read that WE are the firstborn among many brethren.  

If there is a firstborn group, there has to be a second group

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Us Christians, called today, were predestinated to be called before the main harvest.  

[Samie]

Good Morning, brothers (and sisters, too). Again, Happy Sabbath. I have barely 3 hours to discuss with you, and then I'll be off to church for Sabbath worship services.

[Samie]

 

Hi Wingnut;

Believing is exercising faith. It then logically follows that the giving of faith and receiving it precede the exercising of faith since one cannot exercise the faith given him by God if he does not have it.  The fact that faith is God-given tells us that it did not emanate from our own selves.  In fact Scriptures say so:

 

^KJV Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.                

This leads us to the inevitable conclusion that a person given faith was not yet a believer when God gave him faith. He only became one when he exercised that faith and believed in Him.  Scriptures say that we cannot please God without faith.  And in order for people to please Him Who works IN us both to will and to do His own pleasure, He gave every man faith, so that by faith we overcome evil with good because faith is the victory that overcomes the world!

 Sadly, many choose not to overcome evil with good. They will be blotted out from the BOL, and no one remains to rise at your 8M to hear the word of the Lord.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Wingnut said:

From the foundation of the world God pre-determined (predestinated) that salvation would occur in two phases, just like the fig tree produces firstfruits, and main, much bigger crop later.

We Christians are the small advanced guard or pioneers, who first believe in Christ.

Rom 8

29 For whom (that's us) he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he (us again) might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This sounds like it is calling Christ the firstborn.  But it can also be read that WE are the firstborn among many brethren.  

If there is a firstborn group, there has to be a second group

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Us Christians, called today, were predestinated to be called before the main harvest.  

Verse 29 tells of "the firstborn among the many brethren" which undoubtedly refers to Christ among the many brethren. You said that these many brethren are two groups: the firstborn group and the second group (quite inconsistent; should have been firstborn group and second-born group). But since what you refer to as two groups are brethren, this simply signifies that they all belong to the same family - the Family of God. 

You are saying that believers compose the firstborn group, but the second group is composed of those who have never heard of Christ and hence according to your position, they are non-believers and need to be raised at your 8M to hear the word of the Lord. Yet they are brethren and belong to the same family? Are you now saying that both believers and non-believers belong to the Family of God?

[Wingnut]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

 

Hi Wingnut;

Believing is exercising faith. It then logically follows that the giving of faith and receiving it precede the exercising of faith since one cannot exercise the faith given him by God if he does not have it.  The fact that faith is God-given tells us that it did not emanate from our own selves.  In fact Scriptures say so:

 

^KJV Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.                

This leads us to the inevitable conclusion that a person given faith was not yet a believer when God gave him faith. He only became one when he exercised that faith and believed in Him.  Scriptures say that we cannot please God without faith.  And in order for people to please Him Who works IN us both to will and to do His own pleasure, He gave every man faith, so that by faith we overcome evil with good because faith is the victory that overcomes the world!

 Sadly, many choose not to overcome evil with good. They will be blotted out from the BOL, and no one remains to rise at your 8M to hear the word of the Lord.

Hi Samie

Like I said before, it is the faith OF Jesus/God and the faith IN Jesus.  We previously gave evidence of both.

While I am not disagreeing with most of what you wrote, you are writing from the point of view that there is is ONLY the faith OF Christ.

Just because "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" does not negate the dozens of other scriptures which speak of OUR faith, with encouragement to exercise it.

"This leads us to the inevitable conclusion that a person given faith was not yet a believer when God gave him faith."

This is just not an inevitable conclusion at all.  God gives the called and uncalled faith in any measure at any time.  For instance God may give Cyrus faith to let the Jews go back to rebuild Jerusalem, but not faith to convert him.  God may give you faith one day to stand up and do something for Christ which is quite out of character for you

I do not know the exact mechanism of the Holy Spirit working in us, but I know its effect when it happens.  My closest guess as to the process, is that God/Jesus puts thoughts into our minds at times.  "The Holy Spirit brings to remembrance....the Comforter will teach you..."

And always we have the choice to ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit.  And in fact we can stir up the Spirit in us by an act of our will too - no doubt under the promptings of the Holy Spirit.  

Examine the messages to the 7 churches.  Jesus was encouraging them, but in the end, "to him that overcommeth..." it was left to them to pull thumb out.

In your second post you asked "Are you now saying that both believers and non-believers belong to the Family of God?"

I am not using the classification "family of God" since I don't know what you mean by that.  There are the "called" now, and the "called" later.  God gives these faith to believe in Him, and faith to help them in their faith walk.  But God can work with the uncalled and unbelievers giving them faith too.

What I am saying is I strongly resist the idea of classifying people into those whom God is working with and those whom God is not working with since I don't know how God calls or gives faith, but I do know He works with all men, as and when it suits Him.

And even us Christians can have faith one day to do one thing, and not have faith the next day.  Look at Elijah.  One day calling fire down from heaven and ending a drought.  Next day running from a wicked woman Jezebel.

One last scripture of interest is this one...Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

What I do believe is that when God does call someone, He cannot "uncall" them.  There is a point of no return.

Scripture speaks of it as follows....Heb 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That is why God is very careful WHEN he calls someone.  That calling is their one-and-only chance at salvation.

But not all will be called at all in their lifetime now, but resurrected and called later in the 8M.

[Wingnut]

Here is my best shot at how the Father calls/draws people to Him.

The Father sees Joe over there who looks promising.  He starts to give Joe the faith OF Jesus, so that Joe can have faith IN Jesus.  Joe may or may not respond, he has free will.  If he responds, God may draw Joe some more, giving him more faith.  Joe may be unresponsive this time.  So God backs off for a while.  God repeats the calling many times.  Sometimes people never respond enough to be "chosen".  So God leaves them to die unchosen.

But others are responsive, and "go the whole way" becoming Christians.  They are "chosen".  Then they have to remain faithful.  For them the calling is "without repentance".  Heb 6 says that if they "fall away", and are unresponsive to all God's calling them to return, then they are toast.

 

Revelation 17:14

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[Wingnut]

God calls those "chosen" His "elect".  The Gk word means "chosen ones".

These are the ones "born again".  These make up the "family of God".

Calling precedes being chosen.  Our preaching the Gospel is part of the calling process which God does.

 

[Samie]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

God calls those "chosen" His "elect".  The Gk word means "chosen ones".

These are the ones "born again".  These make up the "family of God".

Calling precedes being chosen.  Our preaching the Gospel is part of the calling process which God does.

Granting that calling precedes being chosen.  When does Scriptures say the choosing was done? Here:

Ephesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:  ⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  ⁵ Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Again, we were chosen before the foundation of the world, made spiritually alive through Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), made members of the family of God (Eph 2:19), given faith (Rom 12:3) so that we can overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), because faith is the victory that overcomes the world (1 John 5:4).  Sadly many refuse to overcome. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the BOL (Rev 3:5).  Every man will be rewarded when Jesus comes again (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), and no one remains to be raised at your 8M to hear the word of the Lord.

[Samie]

8 hours ago, Wingnut said:

While I am not disagreeing with most of what you wrote, you are writing from the point of view that there is is ONLY the faith OF Christ.

Just because "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" does not negate the dozens of other scriptures which speak of OUR faith, with encouragement to exercise it.

Of course, the faith of Jesus becomes OUR faith because the Father gave it to us.

But granting there exists in you another faith other than the faith of Christ that God gave you, what or who is the SOURCE of that faith? Which of the two different faiths you have,  is the saving faith? Why do you not discard the other faith since it is not a saving one? Please explain and cite Scriptures, if any.

[Wingnut]

58 minutes ago, Samie said:

Granting that calling precedes being chosen.  When does Scriptures say the choosing was done? Here:

Ephesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:  ⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  ⁵ Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Again, we were chosen before the foundation of the world, made spiritually alive through Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), made members of the family of God (Eph 2:19), given faith (Rom 12:3) so that we can overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), because faith is the victory that overcomes the world (1 John 5:4).  Sadly many refuse to overcome. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the BOL (Rev 3:5).  Every man will be rewarded when Jesus comes again (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), and no one remains to be raised at your 8M to hear the word of the Lord.

Predestinate as used in the NT refers to the first crop of Christian believers.  From the time God decided to make man He decided there would be two crops.  Its that simple.  Nothing "spooky" that He knew the future and knew our names.  

[Wingnut]

46 minutes ago, Samie said:

Of course, the faith of Jesus becomes OUR faith because the Father gave it to us.

But granting there exists in you another faith other than the faith of Christ that God gave you, what or who is the SOURCE of that faith? Which of the two different faiths you have,  is the saving faith? Why do you not discard the other faith since it is not a saving one? Please explain and cite Scriptures, if any.

What faith do you refer to as faith "other than faith of Christ that God gave you"?

People everywhere live by faith, Christians or not.  We climb on planes never having met the pilot who may be suicidal.  We invite strangers into our homes trusting they will not kill us.  We accept food, accepting it is not poisoned.  We cross the road in front of a car trusting the driver is not luring us to our deaths.  Faith is ubiquitous in human life. Nothing spooky here either, just part of freedom of choice.

So when God draws us and somehow assists us to be interested in religion - I have no clue how that works or how much of it is God and how much is freedom of choice.

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Predestinate as used in the NT refers to the first crop of Christian believers.  From the time God decided to make man He decided there would be two crops.  Its that simple.  Nothing "spooky" that He knew the future and knew our names.  

Scriptures please.  Because if there's none, someone may easily come up with 3 or more groups.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Scriptures please.  Because if there's none, someone may easily come up with 3 or more groups.

 

Romans 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do a concordance search of "predestinate/d" and all instances refer to a first group.

It has nothing to do with knowing the future, only with God deciding to have two crops.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, Wingnut said:

While I am not disagreeing with most of what you wrote, you are writing from the point of view that there is is ONLY the faith OF Christ.

Just because "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" does not negate the dozens of other scriptures which speak of OUR faith, with encouragement to exercise it.

From the quote above, it is clear that It was you who intimated there are two faiths: one, the faith of Jesus; the other, OUR faith. So why ask as if blaming me of accusing you of another faith?

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

What faith do you refer to as faith "other than faith of Christ that God gave you"?

 

[Wingnut]

Here is another.  Ps I am colour blind and unable to see red from black.  If you use colours could you please use blue  

 

Eph 1

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

 

Romans 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do a concordance search of "predestinate/d" and all instances refer to a first group.

It has nothing to do with knowing the future, only with God deciding to have two crops.

How does that prove your two groups? I can only see one group of which Christ is the firstborn.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Here is another.  Ps I am colour blind and unable to see red from black.  If you use colours could you please use blue  

 

Eph 1

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So where's Scriptures for the other group Who next trusted in Christ?

[Wingnut]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

From the quote above, it is clear that It was you who intimated there are two faiths: one, the faith of Jesus; the other, OUR faith. So why ask as if blaming me of accusing you of another faith?

 

You lost me here???

Am I right though that you just believe there is one faith only, viz that of Jesus/God?

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

So where's Scriptures for the other group Who next trusted in Christ?

From the logic that if there are some who FIRST trusted in Christ, there has to be those who LATER trusted in Christ.

If we are the FIRSTBORN then there has to be a later born, to make an issue of FIRSTBORN in the first instance.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

You lost me here???

Am I right though that you just believe there is one faith only, viz that of Jesus/God?

Yes, I believe the faith I have is the faith of Jesus that God gave me. Only one faith.

But you said there is another faith and called it OUR faith.

[Wingnut]

Ezek 37 talks of folks raised from the dead to hear the word of the Lord.  These are the second born or much greater later crop.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Yes, I believe the faith I have is the faith of Jesus that God gave me. Only one faith.

But you said there is another faith and called it OUR faith.

And I explained "our faith" as being common to all mankind.  Every day people do activities where their lives depend on trusting something.  Like climbing out on a branch, trusting it will not break = our faith.

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Ezek 37 talks of folks raised from the dead to hear the word of the Lord.  These are the second born or much greater later crop.

It's you who labeled them the second group. Can you show a Scriptural label?

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

And I explained "our faith" as being common to all mankind.  Every day people do activities where their lives depend on trusting something.  Like climbing out on a branch, trusting it will not break = our faith.

You call that faith, as in the faith we are talking about, re that in Heb 11?