The Gog-Magog Battle

[8thdaypriest]

I'm mostly writing this to Wingnut, to continue our discussion concerning the Gog & Magog Battle. 

I think it very interesting that the parties to the Gog-Magog Battle in Ezekiel are ALL Islamic territories today.  The land of Magog is inhabited by former Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Uzbehistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and possibly northern parts of modern Afghanistan. 

Persia is Iran.  The territory of ancient Cush is today's Sudan.  Put is Libya.  Gomer is central Turkey.  Togarmah is South Eastern Turkey. 

Most Evangelical Bible writers on the topics of prophecy, put the Gog-Magog Battle BEFORE the Second Coming.  A few also point out another Gog-Magog Battle AFTER the millennium.   The question - of course - concerns whether there will be ONLY ONE Gog-Magog Battle, or TWO (with one before, and one after the millennium).   

If people from ALL nations down thru time, are resurrected AFTER the 1000 years, one wonders why the nations involved in the Gog & Magog Battle, are described as coming from Islamic territories.   Will Islam continue as the primary enemy of Christ, AFTER the millennium?  Is this a continuation of the struggle for the "birthright" which began between Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau ? Are the nations named in the final struggle, just SYMBOLIC of THAT STRUGGLE? 

And IF - "the rest of the dead" ARE the wicked lost - from the first 6000 years, (as SDAs believe) WHY are they mostly from Islamic territories?  Or is it that - when "the rest of the dead" are resurrected, they are given those territories? 

IF (as I believe) "the rest of the dead" are all of those who died in ignorance, and they are raised to learn of Christ and then make an informed CHOICE, concerning whom they will serve, STILL - WHY are those who rebel and come up to attach redeemed Israel, ALMOST ALL FROM ISLAMIC TERRITORIES ?   

I personally believe that there WILL BE a battle between Islamic forces and the modern nation of Israel.  I also believe that this battle is fomented by Satan, to serve as a COUNTERFEIT for the true Battle of Armageddon.   I believe that the modern nation called "Israel" is being used by Satan, as a COUNTERFEIT for true Israel, which includes believers of all nationalities and DNA descent, and does NOT include those who have rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah.   

[8thdaypriest]

AFTER the Gog-Magog Battle, the people burn the weapons for 7 years, and collect the remains of the attackers to bury them at a special memorial city named Hamon Gog. 

Ezekiel 39:15 "The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man's bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog."

In today's politically correct climate, I can definitely see this happening.  Creating a memorial - as if to say, "Let's never fight a war like this again." 

If the City of Jerusalem is destroyed in this battle, then a rebuilding project would begin. 

I think the 7 years is significant.  WHAT IF this is the last 7 years of this age? 

[Aliensanctuary]

I was thinking that the Gog/Magog battle occurs at the beginning of the 1K years, when the 144K are resurrected to establish the Restored Kingdom of Israel. Extraterrestrial forces destroy the hordes surrounding and attacking the newborn nation.

[8thdaypriest]

I was thinking that the Gog/Magog battle occurs at the beginning of the 1K years, when the 144K are resurrected to establish the Restored Kingdom of Israel. Extraterrestrial forces destroy the hordes surrounding and attacking the newborn nation.

At the Second Coming, the Devil is imprisoned in the Pit. 

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

This verse puts Gog-Magog AFTER the 1000 years, that FOLLOW the SC. 

My question concerns the possibility that a Gog-Magog type battle will take place on earth BEFORE the Second Coming. 

This verse from Revelation seems to EQUATE the "nations in the four corners of the earth" with Magog.  Gog was the title of the ruler of Magog.  Like Pharaoh was ruler of Egypt.

The problem - is that the nations specifically named, as following Gog to Battle against Israel returned to the land, are today all Islamic territories of the Middle East.  

Ezekiel 38:2   Mortal, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Prophesy against him 3 and say: Thus says the Lord GOD: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws, and I will lead you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Put are with them, all of them with buckler and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remotest parts of the north with all its troops -- many peoples are with you. (NRS)

So - Is this for real, or is this symbolic of something. 

Is it symbolic of the struggle for the "birthright" - the struggle for possession of "the land" promised to Abraham?  Is it symbolic of Satan's struggle to continue his domination of this earth?

If Ezekiel is describing the SAME battle that Revelation 20 is describing, then why not mention some people from China, or India, or South America?  Certainly people from these territories would be included if this army is comprised of people from the past, from "every nation" on the globe - especially if it is the army of the lost from the entire 6000 year history since Eve ate the piece of fruit. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel raises some interesting questions.

While some of her thoughts lie outside of standard SDA thinking, other of her ideas would be quite acceptable in standard SDA thought.

Why do I say this:  Because, Rachel is often not as far outside Adventism in her thinking than she thinks she is. 

 

 

[Wingnut]

At the Second Coming, the Devil is imprisoned in the Pit. 

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

This verse puts Gog-Magog AFTER the 1000 years, that FOLLOW the SC. 

We agree here Rachel.  There is definitely a Gog/Magog vs God battle in the 8M, ending with fire out of heaven DEVOURING them.

That was why I doubted they would need burying and burning for 7months/7 years.

Also from the context of Rev 20 I saw God as tying up all loose ends with fire before NJ comes to earth.

That is why I struggled to get your views on why you think life goes on after the Gog/God battle.

For me, its Gog/God - fire - NJ - live happily ever after.

To you its Gog/God - burying/burning - ???????? - NJ - live happily ever after.

This does not make sense to me because there has to be tying up of loose ends after "burying/burning" which to me is "fire".

 

 

My question concerns the possibility that a Gog-Magog type battle will take place on earth BEFORE the Second Coming. 

This verse from Revelation seems to EQUATE the "nations in the four corners of the earth" with Magog.  Gog was the title of the ruler of Magog.  Like Pharaoh was ruler of Egypt.

The problem - is that the nations specifically named, as following Gog to Battle against Israel returned to the land, are today all Islamic territories of the Middle East.  

Ezekiel 38:2   Mortal, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Prophesy against him 3 and say: Thus says the Lord GOD: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws, and I will lead you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Put are with them, all of them with buckler and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remotest parts of the north with all its troops -- many peoples are with you. (NRS)

So - Is this for real, or is this symbolic of something. 

Interesting observation that these are todays Islamic nations, allied to Magog (Meshech I believe is Moscow - but cannot prove it other than reference to the N).  Magog I see as Russia which has been in partnership with Islamic nations like Syria, and anti-Israel.

I do see these all surrounding and attacking the State of Israel just before the 2nd coming (I see these as the King of the N (Russia) allied with the King of the S (Islam)).  One day if you are interested I will explain my views on Daniels King of the N/S prophecy.

 

Is it symbolic of the struggle for the "birthright" - the struggle for possession of "the land" promised to Abraham?  Is it symbolic of Satan's struggle to continue his domination of this earth?

If Ezekiel is describing the SAME battle that Revelation 20 is describing, then why not mention some people from China, or India, or South America?  Certainly people from these territories would be included if this army is comprised of people from the past, from "every nation" on the globe - especially if it is the army of the lost from the entire 6000 year history since Eve ate the piece of fruit. 

 

There, in a nutshell, you have just proved there are two occurrences of Gog/God.

One is from the 4 corners of the earth (8M) and one is from Russia/Islam (7M).

Ps.  It was actually you, making me reread Ez 38-39 which changed my mind.  Before, I believed there was only one Gog/God in the 8M only, but you, making me read Ezek, convinced me otherwise.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

I'm re-reading an excellent book by Joel Richardson, "The Islamic AntiChrist".  He goes in to detail concerning each of the nations allied with Gog.  I'll quote from his book. 

There's one place on page 86-88, that explains why some Bible prophecy interpreters believe Russia is "Rosh", and the two nations "Meshech and Tubal, are the two Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk.  He explains that interpretation was entirely based upon the SOUND of the names, NOT on historical evidence.  That interpretation came from the Scofield Reference Bible. 

Ezekiel 27:13 describes Meshech and Tubal as trading partners with ancient Tre, in what is today Lebanon.  "I is high doubtful" says Hitchcock, "that ancient Tyre was trading with people as far north as Moscow and Tobolsk".  "A closer study of these names reveals that meschech and Tubal are the ancient Moschi/Mushki and Tubalu/Tibareni peoples who dwelled in the area aroudn, primarily south of, the Black and Caspian Seas in Ezekiel's day.  These nations today re in the modern country of Turkey possibly parts of sourhern Russia and northern Iran." 

OK - so the Beast has 7 heads - and then an 8th head who is one of the 7.    Jerusalem is the center of the world, in Bible prophecy, so each one of these heads has to rule the Middle East and specifically Jerusalem.  The "heads" would be Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and then the 7th head.  What power ruled the Middle East and specifically ruled over Jerusalem? Answer:  the Turkish/Ottoman Empire.  Rome split into two Empires.  The Western one, and City of Rome fell to the Germanic Barbarians.  But the Eastern one lasted another 400-500 years, until it was conquered by the Ottoman Caliphate. 

So - what is "the 8th head" ?  Is it a revival of Roman Catholicism, or a revival of the Caliphate? 

[8thdaypriest]

I believe the ram that is pushing North, South, and West (but not East towards China) is Islam.  The two "horns" would be Sunni and Shia. 

The "goat" from the West, with the "notable horn" comes against the Ram, throws him to the ground, stomps on him, and breaks his two horns. 

Could THIS be the battle described in Ezekiel?  

Then for 7 years, they clean up the weapons and remains.  Could THIS 7 years be the last 7 years of this age?   It could FIT with Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (NKJ)

After WWIII with the Islamic Caliphate, the world declares an END to religious wars.  The Jews are allowed to rebuild their Temple, but then 3.5 years into that "covenant" a world leader (maybe in league with the UN or other body) declares the Temple must belong to "all peoples".   And they internationalize the Temple Mount. 

I know that SDAs say that "he" in Daniel 9:27 was Christ.  "He" is the prince to come.  He's the one who made "a covenant with many for one week".   But if you look at other prophecies, it is obvious that the one who will bring an end to sacrifice and offering, is also the one who will occupy and profane the Temple, and set up the abomination that makes desolate.    THAT does NOT sound like something Christ would do. 

Daniel 11:31 “Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the Temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate.” (NRS)

 

 

[Wingnut]

 

I know that SDAs say that "he" in Daniel 9:27 was Christ.  "He" is the prince to come.  He's the one who made "a covenant with many for one week".   But if you look at other prophecies, it is obvious that the one who will bring an end to sacrifice and offering, is also the one who will occupy and profane the Temple, and set up the abomination that makes desolate.    THAT does NOT sound like something Christ would do. 

Daniel 11:31 “Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the Temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate.” (NRS)

 

 

In our church I have not heard one sermon on prophecy, so I do not know the official SDA understanding..   

I agree with you however in the above.

For you interest, read the following.  What fascinated me was reading it WITHOUT PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.  What I did was replace every instance of "he", "him" with "the Beast"/"man of sin".

29 At the time appointed he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall return , and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: "the Beast"/"man of sin". therefore he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall be grieved , and return , and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he "the Beast"/"man of sin". do ; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 

31 And arms shall stand on his "the Beast"/"man of sin". part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate . 

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he "the Beast"/"man of sin". corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do knowtheir God shall be strong , and do exploits. 

33 And they that understandamong the people shall instruct  many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 

34 Now when they shall fall , they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall , to trythem, and to purge , and to make them white , even to the time of the end:because it is yet for a time appointed. 

36 And the king shall do according to his "the Beast"/"man of sin". will; and he shall exalt himself "the Beast"/"man of sin"., and magnify himself "the Beast"/"man of sin". above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished : for that that is determinedshall be done . 

37 Neither shall he "the Beast"/"man of sin".regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall magnify himself  "the Beast"/"man of sin". above all. 

38 But in his "the Beast"/"man of sin". estate shall he"the Beast"/"man of sin". honour the God of forces: and a godwhom his "the Beast"/"man of sin". fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 

39 Thus shall he "the Beast"/"man of sin". do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he "the Beast"/"man of sin".shall acknowledge and increasewith glory: and he "the Beast"/"man of sin".shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. 

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the southpush at him "the Beast"/"man of sin".: and the king of the north shall come against him "the Beast"/"man of sin". like a whirlwind , with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over . 

41 He "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown : but these shall escape out of his "the Beast"/"man of sin". hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 

42 He "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall stretch forthhis hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopiansshall be at his "the Beast"/"man of sin". steps. 

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the northshall trouble him "the Beast"/"man of sin".: therefore he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall go forth with great fury to destroy , and utterly to make away  many. 

45 And he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he "the Beast"/"man of sin". shall cometo his end, and none shall help him. "the Beast"/"man of sin".

 

[Wingnut]

Now for the private interpretations of a prophecy hobbyist...

 

In the passage of Daniel quoted above, Kings of the N and S trouble "him".  Tidings out of the E trouble "him".

"He" therefore rules the W - the only part not mentioned.

I believe the W fits the bill, since who can make war against the W?

And I think the USA makes a perfect whore to ride this "beast".

I have been wrong before, but that is my current understanding.

King of N = Russia

King of S = Islam

Tidings out of N and E = China/Japan/Korea

The W includes USA and Europe, and who rules the world today?  The USA.  It rides the W.

A whore is someone who will compromise all her principles for money.  That is a description of the USA.

One of my favourite writers is P J O' Rourke.  He wrote "A parliament of whores" about the USA.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

What is also interesting in Dan 11:31 is that it is not the Man of sin who places the abomination but "they" - whoever they are.

I always assumed until reading this just now that it was the Beast/man of sin who placed the abomination.

"They" could be the Jews, or Israel's enemies - or whoever controls the Temple Mound.

[Wingnut]

I'm re-reading an excellent book by Joel Richardson, "The Islamic AntiChrist".  He goes in to detail concerning each of the nations allied with Gog.  I'll quote from his book. 

 

So - what is "the 8th head" ?  Is it a revival of Roman Catholicism, or a revival of the Caliphate? 

It may be neither.

The reason I rule out Islam, is because every muslim nation could be crushed like a mosquito, if the West had the will.  That is what the Man of Sin brings to the table, the will.

It may not be the Pope or Roman Catholicism either for the same reason.  The Vatican has no nukes that I know of.

The SDA's are so busy watching the Pope, I fear they may miss all the real signs.  One real sign is the 4th pale horse which is 1/4 of the world dying before persecution of Christians arises.  That is 1.7 billion deaths.  To interpret the 4th horse as the Laodicean church means not noticing that the "Great Dying" precedes the "Great Tribulation" or persecution of us saints.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

FROM Daniel Cpt 9:

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. [This would be Titus.]  The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

        Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (NKJ)

Who is "he", in this passage?  By force of arms, "he" takes away the daily sacrifices, and places the abomination that causes desolation on the Temple Mount. 

Rome DID that,  way back in 70AD.    If this is END TIME prophecy, then you have to renew the sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple on the Mount BEFORE the abomination that causes desolation can be set up. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,

Wow.  Your present interpretations of these prophecies have almost nothing in agreement with mine.  I'll address one point - concerning who the "harlot" of Revelation is.

I personally believe that Israel will become the "whore" when she enters into alliances with agents of the Beast, in order to survive, rather than relying upon her God.  In Revelation, it is Jerusalem that is the whore, just as Jerusalem was called a "whore" back in the OT. 

Jerusalem called a "harlot"   Ezekiel 16:30   Ezekiel 16:35-44;  Ezek. 15:15, 17, 20-59;  Isaiah 1:21;  Jer. 2:20-21;  Jer 3:1-14 (calls the 10 tribes a harlot, and then says Judah was worse); 

Rev 17:1  "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot . . . with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication.

The woman has the name of the Beast on her forehead:  "Babylon the Great" v.5   SHE (Jerusalem) becomes the seat of the Beast power.  Her "fall" is simultaneous with the Beasts fall.  

She is "drunk with the blood of saints and with the blood of martyrs" (v6) right up to the death of the last "two witnesses".  

Rev. 18:24  "In HER was found the blood of prophet and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."  (Why "all".  Answer:  Because she did not fulfill her original divine destiny - to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" to teach the world of God. That's why!   Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!  (Mat 23:37).   Acts 7:52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers". 

Matthew 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  (NKJ)

The bodies of the "two witnesses" lie in the street of "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified".   This is Jerusalem!  Jerusalem has become Sodom, or Egypt, and yes - Babylon.  She becomes "the habitation of demons, and a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird" (18:2).  Egypt and Babylon were noteworthy for sorcery.  Rev 18:23 says, "for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived", speaking of this City. 

NKJ Isaiah 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot! It was full of justice; Righteousness lodged in it, But now murderers" (Isa. 1:21, Isa 1:10, Jer 23:14).

Rome was NEVER a "faithful city". It was never "full of justice." Those words apply to Jerusalem.

The daughter of a priest who became "a whore" was to die by fire (Lev. 21:9). Jerusalem will be destroyed - yet again - by cleansing fire. It must be "cleansed" before Jesus can set His throne there.

Unclean Jerusalem (as Babylon) will be destroyed or "thrown down" (Rev. 18:21).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Wingnut]

Wingnut,

Wow.  Your present interpretations of these prophecies have almost nothing in agreement with mine.  I'll address one point - concerning who the "harlot" of Revelation is.

I personally believe that Israel will become the "whore" when she enters into alliances with agents of the Beast, in order to survive, rather than relying upon her God.  In Revelation, it is Jerusalem that is the whore, just as Jerusalem was called a "whore" back in the OT. 

I am in agreement with you that Jerusalem is a whore.  But she has no power to ride any empire.

I totally agree with your next quote re. Exek 16 where God spends a whole chapter calling Israel and Jerusalem a whore.  So if the Bible interprets itself, Israel is the whore, and Jerusalem too.

I just happen to believe that America and Britain are the lost tribe of Jacob, USA being Manasseh, and UK being Ephraim.  Thus it fits perfectly with me that these English-speaking countries have played the harlot by compromising their principles for filthy lucre.  And without the big whore (USA) the little whore (state of Israel) would not last 6 months.

 

Jerusalem called a "harlot"   Ezekiel 16:30   Ezekiel 16:35-44;  Ezek. 15:15, 17, 20-59;  Isaiah 1:21;  Jer. 2:20-21;  Jer 3:1-14 (calls the 10 tribes a harlot, and then says Judah was worse); 

Rev 17:1  "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot . . . with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication.

The Breast is the superpower who rules the world.  If this is the end time, there is only one superpower today.  The Bible speaks of "Jacob's trouble" and I believe that at the end, both Jerusalem and the USA and UK end up in captivity when the Beast turns against its rider.

 

The woman has the name of the Beast on her forehead:  "Babylon the Great" v.5   SHE (Jerusalem) becomes the seat of the Beast power.  Her "fall" is simultaneous with the Beasts fall.  

The Jews in Israel today will be taken captive when the Man of Sin turns against her in the last years.

 

She is "drunk with the blood of saints and with the blood of martyrs" (v6) right up to the death of the last "two witnesses".  

Did not Ellen say that the USA will be the main persecutor of the saints?  Look at the end-time descriptions of the lost tribes in Gen 49 and see that Jacob is a superpower then.  But you are right about Jerusalem doing that too.  They can be treated as one.

Rev. 18:24  "In HER was found the blood of prophet and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."  (Why "all".  Answer:  Because she did not fulfill her original divine destiny - to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" to teach the world of God. That's why!   Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!  (Mat 23:37).   Acts 7:52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers". 

 

Correct, but neither did USA the most religious and blessed nation on earth today.  God gave her great responsibility with her great power.

 

Matthew 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  (NKJ)

The bodies of the "two witnesses" lie in the street of "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified".   This is Jerusalem!  Jerusalem has become Sodom, or Egypt, and yes - Babylon.  She becomes "the habitation of demons, and a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird" (18:2).  Egypt and Babylon were noteworthy for sorcery.  Rev 18:23 says, "for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived", speaking of this City. 

NKJ Isaiah 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot! It was full of justice; Righteousness lodged in it, But now murderers" (Isa. 1:21, Isa 1:10, Jer 23:14).

Rome was NEVER a "faithful city". It was never "full of justice." Those words apply to Jerusalem.

The daughter of a priest who became "a whore" was to die by fire (Lev. 21:9). Jerusalem will be destroyed - yet again - by cleansing fire. It must be "cleansed" before Jesus can set His throne there.

Unclean Jerusalem (as Babylon) will be destroyed or "thrown down" (Rev. 18:21).

Again, we are in total agreement over Jerusalem's fate.  It's just that she is not in a position to ride the Beast IMHO.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Well - not YET anyway....

[8thdaypriest]

 

I just happen to believe that America and Britain are the lost tribe of Jacob, USA being Manasseh, and UK being Ephraim.  Thus it fits perfectly with me that these English-speaking countries have played the harlot by compromising their principles for filthy lucre.  And without the big whore (USA) the little whore (state of Israel) would not last 6 months.

Rachel replies:  I don't see THIS.   Can't agree. 

[Wingnut]

 

The Church of God was big on British Israelitism, which is where I learned this.  Don't ask me to prove it, read their stuff.

Thank goodness my salvation does not depend on being right on this.  To me prophecy is just a hobby.

Babylon was the whole world in Nimrod's time.  Babylon the Great is the final world-ruling empire, whoever that is, whenever that is.  If Christ comes in the next 20 years then it has to be USA.  And it includes the Roan Empire territories too, as the Image of Daniel, with feet and toes shows.  Bur just because it includes 10 kings at the end does not exclude USA, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Balkan-states, etc.

[Wingnut]

Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

FROM Daniel Cpt 9:

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. [This would be Titus.]  The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

        Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (NKJ)

Who is "he", in this passage?  By force of arms, "he" takes away the daily sacrifices, and places the abomination that causes desolation on the Temple Mount. 

Rome DID that,  way back in 70AD.    If this is END TIME prophecy, then you have to renew the sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple on the Mount BEFORE the abomination that causes desolation can be set up. 

 

 

 

25 Know therefore and understand , that from the going forth of the commandmentto restore and to build  Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built  again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

 

 

"When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!"   http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

 

 

 

 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined .

 

 

This was fulfilled as a type by Titus.

 

 

 

 

27 And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 

 

This IMO refers to Christ's ministry instituting the New Covenant,  which lasted for 3.5 years, at which point...

 

 

and in the midst of the week he (Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease 

 

 

I believe this refers to Christ who caused sacrifice and oblation to cease.

 

 

, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Christ) shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

 

 

This is a reference to condemning Jerusalem to continual desolation from then on "for the overspreading of abominations" and what could be more abominable than killing the very Son of God.  This sentenced Jerusalem to desolation.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

The Church of God was big on British Israelitism, which is where I learned this.  Don't ask me to prove it, read their stuff.

Thank goodness my salvation does not depend on being right on this.  To me prophecy is just a hobby.

Babylon was the whole world in Nimrod's time.  Babylon the Great is the final world-ruling empire, whoever that is, whenever that is.  If Christ comes in the next 20 years then it has to be USA.  And it includes the Roan Empire territories too, as the Image of Daniel, with feet and toes shows.  Bur just because it includes 10 kings at the end does not exclude USA, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Balkan-states, etc.

I have (as yet) not seen convincing proof that the Brits, or Europe, or the USA, are Ephraim or Manasseh.   The 10 tribes were scattered throughout Assyria and the territories over which Assyria ruled.  I don't see how THAT translates into Europe or the USA. 

I have seen the sensational archaeology programs purporting to show copies of the 10 Commandments, found in burial mounds in different places across the USA.   I do know that many Jews fled from Isabel and Ferdinand of Spain, and the Inquisition in the 1400s, to the Southwest American Continent.  Many folks who THINK they are Hispanic, are actually of Jewish descent.  I have some friends who had their DNA done, and discovered this.

My personally belief (at this time) is that the RAM pushing North, South, and West (at the time of the END) is Islam (Dan Cpt 8).  The "two horns" would be Sharia and Sunni.  Both branches of Islam are absolutely BENT on the destruction of Israel, and - in fact - on world domination.   I believe that Islamic nations will attack Israel, and will destroy Jerusalem.  THAT attack is what infuriates the GOAT.

The GOAT that comes from the WEST, would be a coalition of nations with the USA as the "notable horn" (the power end of that coalition). 

In this battle the RAM is thrown down and stomped on (symbolic of defeat - even in Islamic symbolism today).  THEN the "notable horn" is "broken without hand" - meaning NOT in a battle.  Personally I think it will be an economic collapse.  THAT is WHEN the "eagles wings" are "torn off" of the Lion.   The LION was the tribal symbol of Judah.  I believe the LION symbolizes the secular nation of Israel today. 

I'm beginning to think that this BATTLE between the RAM of Islam and the GOAT from the West, will be the counterfeit Gog-Magog Battle.  It's the one that Satan has set up, in order to "deceive the nations" into worshiping him. 

After this Battle the clean-up will take 7 years. The City of Jerusalem, will be restored, and also the Temple on the Mount.  In the midst of this 7 year "week", the AntiChrist power (now dominating world wide) will declare an END to "sacrifice and offering" at the Temple.   He will set himself up in the restored Temple.  He will declare an end to war, and an end to religious intolerance.  The people of earth will be soooooo war weary, that they will give up any denominational differences, or religious differences - just for the sake of PEACE.  Anyone who will not go along with this program (for the sake of peace) will be persecuted, and finally executed.  

Jesus comes back just as this Beast system is about to obliterate the "saints". 

Just WHO this final Antichrist power/personage will be - I don't know.  It may BE the Pope.  It's possible.  He is seen as a great unifying religious personage.  The Pope may be the "false prophet" and the "little horn".  If a "horn" is a nation, then Papal Rome is certainly a "little" nation.  Papal Rome IS a nation.   

And THAT would mean that Islam is the 7th horn, but it's NOT the "little horn" (the 8th one).  The 8th is "of the seven" in the sense that the SAME SPIRIT empowers the 8th horn, as empowered all the others which persecuted the Israel of God.   For me, it is significant that the "little horn" grows out of one of the four horns on the GOAT.  It does not grow from the RAM.  Which - to me - says it does not grow from Islam.  It grows from something in the WEST. 

AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, then there will be ANOTHER Gog&Magog TYPE Battle.  I have no problem with dual prophecies (ones with more than one fulfillment).   

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

25 Know therefore and understand , that from the going forth of the commandmentto restore and to build  Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built  again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

 

 

"When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!"   http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

 

 

 

 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined .

 

 

This was fulfilled as a type by Titus.

 

 

 

 

27 And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 

 

This IMO refers to Christ's ministry instituting the New Covenant,  which lasted for 3.5 years, at which point...

 

 

and in the midst of the week he (Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease 

 

 

I believe this refers to Christ who caused sacrifice and oblation to cease.

 

 

, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Christ) shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

 

 

This is a reference to condemning Jerusalem to continual desolation from then on "for the overspreading of abominations" and what could be more abominable than killing the very Son of God.  This sentenced Jerusalem to desolation.

Do you know if there was a "blood moon" on the nite of Passover, April 6, 32AD?  What day of the week was that? 

According to the NASA site, there WAS one on Passover nite (which began Feast of Unleavened Bread) in 33AD, on a Friday nite. 

I DO believe that Christ's death brought an END to "sacrifice and offering" (in the eyes of God), but it did not LITERALLY bring an end to the sacrifices at the Temple in Jerusalem.  And Jesus' death DID NOT set up "the abomination that causes desolation" on the Temple Mount. 

The believers in Jerusalem went right on offering sacrifices, right up til 70AD.  They didn't seem to get that message.  Maybe that's what the Letter to the Hebrews was for. 

 

[Wingnut]

Do you know if there was a "blood moon" on the nite of Passover, April 6, 32AD?  What day of the week was that? 

According to the NASA site, there WAS one on Passover nite (which began Feast of Unleavened Bread) in 33AD, on a Friday nite. 

I DO believe that Christ's death brought an END to "sacrifice and offering" (in the eyes of God), but it did not LITERALLY bring an end to the sacrifices at the Temple in Jerusalem.  And Jesus' death DID NOT set up "the abomination that causes desolation" on the Temple Mount. 

The believers in Jerusalem went right on offering sacrifices, right up til 70AD.  They didn't seem to get that message.  Maybe that's what the Letter to the Hebrews was for. 

 

According to http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/passover_dates.htm 32AD would have Christ crucified on a Monday April 14.  That sounds wrong.

I don't know which year He was crucified, but Wed April 25 31 AD is my choice.  That would have Christ 3 days AND THREE NIGHTS in the grave, viz. Wed night, Thurs night, Friday night.  Christ was raised IMO at sunset Saturday, to appear to them Sun morning.  Between Sat sunset and Sun morning He went and preached to the demons in hell, showing He had triumphed over death and them.

As for blood moons, they have zero significance.

I reject the traditional Friday night crucifixion. No maths gets 3 days and 3 nights up till Sun morning.

Folks who reject the holy days and sabbaths do not realise He was crucified before an ANNUAL sabbath (Passover) not the WEEKLY sabbath (Saturday).

 

As for the abomination of desolations, I am not saying that Christ set up the Abomination of desolations.  

What Dan says in Dan 9:27 is that "for the overspreading of abominations" which means "because of widespread (Knaf Heb.) abominations" which the Jews were responsible for, including killing Him ..."he shall make it desolate".  "He" is Christ who shall make "it" meaning Jerusalem desolate.  This began in 70AD and will be culminated in the very end when an idol will be erected in a tabernacle on the Temple Mount.

[8thdaypriest]

According to http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/passover_dates.htm 32AD would have Christ crucified on a Monday April 14.  That sounds wrong.

I don't know which year He was crucified, but Wed April 25 31 AD is my choice.  That would have Christ 3 days AND THREE NIGHTS in the grave, viz. Wed night, Thurs night, Friday night.  Christ was raised IMO at sunset Saturday, to appear to them Sun morning.  Between Sat sunset and Sun morning He went and preached to the demons in hell, showing He had triumphed over death and them.

As for blood moons, they have zero significance.

I reject the traditional Friday night crucifixion. No maths gets 3 days and 3 nights up till Sun morning.

Folks who reject the holy days and sabbaths do not realise He was crucified before an ANNUAL sabbath (Passover) not the WEEKLY sabbath (Saturday).

Matthew 28:40, has Jesus saying "so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'”   The question of course is: "what was "the heart of the earth".    I would submit that Jerusalem WAS "the heart of the earth" .  Jesus would be 3 days and 3 nights under the power of "the (evil) heart of the earth".  

    Jerusalem was regarded as the center (or heart) of the earth.  Jews were to travel from every part of the earth to Jerusalem, for worship on the Festival Days.  (John 4:20; Acts 2:5-11, 8:27; Deut. 16:16).  “For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth” (Psa.74:12; Ezek 38:12).  “This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her” (Ezek 5:5).  The heart of Jerusalem - the heart of the appointed leadership of God’s people, in fact the heart of mankind, was evil.

Verses which specify “the third day” include those things which Christ must suffer, NOT simply his death.  The whole process of humiliation was included in this “belly of the whale” experience (Matt. 16:21, Mk. 8:31, Mk. 9:12, Lk. 9:22, Lk. 17:25).

        To the mob near the garden, Jesus said, “This is your hour, and the power of darkness” (Lk 22:53).  “Behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners” (Matt. 26:46.)  “The hour” begins with the kiss of Judas.

Hebrew timing:  Any part of a day, was counted as a day. 

Jesus could be TAKEN INTO CUSTODY during the NIGHT of the 14th of Nissan, and rise after dawn on the 16th of Nissan, which time period (14th - nite, 14th-day, 15th-nite, 15th-day, 16th-nite, 16th-day) would cover all or parts of three days AND three nights. 

Jesus body did not decay - at all - over the time period in the tomb.  That was the prophecy.  Either God the Father divinely preserved the corpse, OR the time period was NOT 72 hours.  It was closer to 55.  The LAW said that one could EAT of a peace offering sacrifice ON the day it was killed, and ON the day following.  On the 3rd day, it became UNCLEAN.  Jesus had to rise at the start of the 3rd day, FROM HIS DEATH, before HE became UNCLEAN. 

    Hosea 6:1-3 “Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.  After two days he will revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.  Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”

AFTER 2 days, IS the 3rd day.  Ten times, Jesus said He would be "raised the third day".  Only once, did He say that He would be 3 days AND 3 nights "in the heart of the earth".  THAT convinces me, we must ADD the time from His arrest to His death, TO the time actually in the tomb. 

Those are just a few of the reasons why I believe that Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, and was raised after dawn on Sunday (the 8th day). 

There's a detailed study at my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/45-Three-Days-Nights.pdf

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

 

 

As for the abomination of desolations, I am not saying that Christ set up the Abomination of desolations.  

What Dan says in Dan 9:27 is that "for the overspreading of abominations" which means "because of widespread (Knaf Heb.) abominations" which the Jews were responsible for, including killing Him ..."he shall make it desolate".  "He" is Christ who shall make "it" meaning Jerusalem desolate.  This began in 70AD and will be culminated in the very end when an idol will be erected in a tabernacle on the Temple Mount.

I was looking at Daniel 11:31.   "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

In Daniel 9:27 the prince to come, will destroy the City and the Sanctuary.  THAT was Titus. 

There's a TIME GAP here........

But THEN another "he" will make a covenant with many for one seven.  In the middle of THAT "week" his forces "defile" the Sanctuary, "take away the daily sacrifices" (which had been restored when the Temple is rebuilt) and THEN "he" places the abomination of desolation (maybe the image to the Beast).   "He" demands all people worship this abomination.  He sets himself up - in the Temple - to receive worship. 

The SAME ONE who defiles the Sanctuary - sets up the abomination that causes desolation.  And he does this "in the midst of the week".  Which means there are 42 months (time, times, and a part; 1260 days left to persecute the people of God. 

[Wingnut]

I was looking at Daniel 11:31.   "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

In Daniel 9:27 the prince to come, will destroy the City and the Sanctuary.  THAT was Titus. 

There's a TIME GAP here........

But THEN another "he" will make a covenant with many for one seven.  In the middle of THAT "week" his forces "defile" the Sanctuary, "take away the daily sacrifices" (which had been restored when the Temple is rebuilt) and THEN "he" places the abomination of desolation (maybe the image to the Beast).   "He" demands all people worship this abomination.  He sets himself up - in the Temple - to receive worship. 

The SAME ONE who defiles the Sanctuary - sets up the abomination that causes desolation.  And he does this "in the midst of the week".  Which means there are 42 months (time, times, and a part; 1260 days left to persecute the people of God. 

My only observation in a previous post was the "they" highlighted is different to the "him".  So I don't think the Man of Sin necessarily places the abomination.