The Gog-Magog Battle

[Wingnut]

I was looking at Daniel 11:31.   "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

In Daniel 9:27 the prince to come, will destroy the City and the Sanctuary.  THAT was Titus. 

There's a TIME GAP here........

But THEN another "he" will make a covenant with many for one seven.  In the middle of THAT "week" his forces "defile" the Sanctuary, "take away the daily sacrifices" (which had been restored when the Temple is rebuilt) and THEN "he" places the abomination of desolation (maybe the image to the Beast).   "He" demands all people worship this abomination.  He sets himself up - in the Temple - to receive worship. 

The SAME ONE who defiles the Sanctuary - sets up the abomination that causes desolation.  And he does this "in the midst of the week".  Which means there are 42 months (time, times, and a part; 1260 days left to persecute the people of God. 

Reading the following...

25 Knowtherefore and understand , that from the going forth of the commandmentto restore and to build  Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built  again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

26 And after threescore and twoweeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolationsare determined . 

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for oneweek: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

...it sounds like 7 + 62 weeks till Christ's first coming.

Then He, Christ confirms the covenant with many for one week (7 years), starting from when his ministry began, ending at the stoning of Stephen when God rejected Jerusalem, the temple and the Jews.  There is no gap, no final week in this.  Christ is cut off in the middle of the week or 3.5 years, leaving 3.5 which is described in the book of Acts as the start of the new church.

I think that is what I believe, but having just woken, and not had coffee, I could be mistaken.

 

 

 

[Wingnut]

Dan 9 speaks of Christ.  Every time "he" and "him" is mentioned refers to Christ.

Dan 11 speaks of Anti-Christ.  Every time "he" and "him" is mentioned refers to Anti-Christ.

Both prophecies mention an abomination making desolate.

I believe the first one in Dan 9 is the start of Jerusalem's desolation (70AD started by Titus)...

...the final abomination of desolations mentioned in Dan 11 and Matt 24 refers to the final abomination, the placing of an image for all to worship on the Temple Mount some time in the future.  And it seems to be set up by someone other than Anti-Christ by the use of "they".  It could be the Jews or the Jews enemies.  It could even be whoever as allowed by the Anti-Christ.

They are part of one process.  It begins with abomination, it ends with abomination.

It is started by Rome, it is ended by Rome (the legs and feet of the Dan 2 image).

It starts with Jerusalem's destruction, and it finalises Jerusalem's end-time captivity.

It is the start of the Jews punishment, it is the culmination of the Jews punishment.

 

What I like about my way of interpreting Dan is the consistency of the use of "he " and "him".  I am not swopping between good and bad guys. 

 

One final thing, the "overflowing abomination" is "knaf" in Heb.  The word refers to wings and is translated "overflowing".

I don't think this is the same as abomination that makes desolate.  Long ago I used to think the "abomination that makes desolate" was a winged image or idol, from "knaf", but now I believe it refers to the way wing encompass or cover everything.  It could also refer to widespread as in spreading wings wide.  I subscribe to the Jews widespread, overall, all-encompassing, overflowing wickedness and that of Jerusalem, which is why God rejects Jerusalem and condemns it to desolation till Messiah returns.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

I have (as yet) not seen convincing proof that the Brits, or Europe, or the USA, are Ephraim or Manasseh.   The 10 tribes were scattered throughout Assyria and the territories over which Assyria ruled.  I don't see how THAT translates into Europe or the USA. 

I have seen the sensational archaeology programs purporting to show copies of the 10 Commandments, found in burial mounds in different places across the USA.   I do know that many Jews fled from Isabel and Ferdinand of Spain, and the Inquisition in the 1400s, to the Southwest American Continent.  Many folks who THINK they are Hispanic, are actually of Jewish descent.  I have some friends who had their DNA done, and discovered this.

My personally belief (at this time) is that the RAM pushing North, South, and West (at the time of the END) is Islam (Dan Cpt 8).  The "two horns" would be Sharia and Sunni.  Both branches of Islam are absolutely BENT on the destruction of Israel, and - in fact - on world domination.   I believe that Islamic nations will attack Israel, and will destroy Jerusalem.  THAT attack is what infuriates the GOAT.

The GOAT that comes from the WEST, would be a coalition of nations with the USA as the "notable horn" (the power end of that coalition). 

In this battle the RAM is thrown down and stomped on (symbolic of defeat - even in Islamic symbolism today).  THEN the "notable horn" is "broken without hand" - meaning NOT in a battle.  Personally I think it will be an economic collapse.  THAT is WHEN the "eagles wings" are "torn off" of the Lion.   The LION was the tribal symbol of Judah.  I believe the LION symbolizes the secular nation of Israel today. 

I'm beginning to think that this BATTLE between the RAM of Islam and the GOAT from the West, will be the counterfeit Gog-Magog Battle.  It's the one that Satan has set up, in order to "deceive the nations" into worshiping him. 

After this Battle the clean-up will take 7 years. The City of Jerusalem, will be restored, and also the Temple on the Mount.  In the midst of this 7 year "week", the AntiChrist power (now dominating world wide) will declare an END to "sacrifice and offering" at the Temple.   He will set himself up in the restored Temple.  He will declare an end to war, and an end to religious intolerance.  The people of earth will be soooooo war weary, that they will give up any denominational differences, or religious differences - just for the sake of PEACE.  Anyone who will not go along with this program (for the sake of peace) will be persecuted, and finally executed.  

Jesus comes back just as this Beast system is about to obliterate the "saints". 

Just WHO this final Antichrist power/personage will be - I don't know.  It may BE the Pope.  It's possible.  He is seen as a great unifying religious personage.  The Pope may be the "false prophet" and the "little horn".  If a "horn" is a nation, then Papal Rome is certainly a "little" nation.  Papal Rome IS a nation.   

And THAT would mean that Islam is the 7th horn, but it's NOT the "little horn" (the 8th one).  The 8th is "of the seven" in the sense that the SAME SPIRIT empowers the 8th horn, as empowered all the others which persecuted the Israel of God.   For me, it is significant that the "little horn" grows out of one of the four horns on the GOAT.  It does not grow from the RAM.  Which - to me - says it does not grow from Islam.  It grows from something in the WEST. 

AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, then there will be ANOTHER Gog&Magog TYPE Battle.  I have no problem with dual prophecies (ones with more than one fulfillment).   

 

Rachel, I really like all the thought you put into this post.

You have a very interesting take on Dan 8 which I have never heard before.

My belief up to now was that the ram was Persia, and the He-goat was Alexander the Great who overcame Persia.  Then when Alexander died, his kingdom was spread to the 4 winds or his 4 generals.

But you may be onto something that these are end-time events.

There may even be an anti-type of Alexander's conquests in the end-time.

The Beast that "was", "is not" and "is to come" I believe is a demon spirit who I believe empowered some conquerer in the past.  To me Alexander the Great is the perfect candidate for this.  He was empowered by a spirit.  He was believed to be a "god".  That spirit "was" in Alexander, "is not" because that spirit is imprisoned, "is to come" because it will be released to possess the Anti-Christ.  It is also the deadly wound being healed.  Watch the movie "Alexander the great" with Richard Burton to see how many references there were to Alexander being a "god".  They got that right IMO.

The spirit's name may be Abaddon or Apollyon.  It is rare for God to name evil spirits, unless they serve a very important purpose.  

IMO Gog is also the name of an evil spirit which when released musters the whole world to war - so it may even be the spirit of Gog in the Anti-Christ.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

Matthew 28:40, has Jesus saying "so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'”   The question of course is: "what was "the heart of the earth".    I would submit that Jerusalem WAS "the heart of the earth" .  Jesus would be 3 days and 3 nights under the power of "the (evil) heart of the earth".  

    Jerusalem was regarded as the center (or heart) of the earth.  Jews were to travel from every part of the earth to Jerusalem, for worship on the Festival Days.  (John 4:20; Acts 2:5-11, 8:27; Deut. 16:16).  “For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth” (Psa.74:12; Ezek 38:12).  “This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her” (Ezek 5:5).  The heart of Jerusalem - the heart of the appointed leadership of God’s people, in fact the heart of mankind, was evil.

Verses which specify “the third day” include those things which Christ must suffer, NOT simply his death.  The whole process of humiliation was included in this “belly of the whale” experience (Matt. 16:21, Mk. 8:31, Mk. 9:12, Lk. 9:22, Lk. 17:25).

        To the mob near the garden, Jesus said, “This is your hour, and the power of darkness” (Lk 22:53).  “Behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners” (Matt. 26:46.)  “The hour” begins with the kiss of Judas.

Hebrew timing:  Any part of a day, was counted as a day. 

Jesus could be TAKEN INTO CUSTODY during the NIGHT of the 14th of Nissan, and rise after dawn on the 16th of Nissan, which time period (14th - nite, 14th-day, 15th-nite, 15th-day, 16th-nite, 16th-day) would cover all or parts of three days AND three nights. 

Jesus body did not decay - at all - over the time period in the tomb.  That was the prophecy.  Either God the Father divinely preserved the corpse, OR the time period was NOT 72 hours.  It was closer to 55.  The LAW said that one could EAT of a peace offering sacrifice ON the day it was killed, and ON the day following.  On the 3rd day, it became UNCLEAN.  Jesus had to rise at the start of the 3rd day, FROM HIS DEATH, before HE became UNCLEAN. 

    Hosea 6:1-3 “Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.  After two days he will revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.  Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”

AFTER 2 days, IS the 3rd day.  Ten times, Jesus said He would be "raised the third day".  Only once, did He say that He would be 3 days AND 3 nights "in the heart of the earth".  THAT convinces me, we must ADD the time from His arrest to His death, TO the time actually in the tomb. 

Those are just a few of the reasons why I believe that Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, and was raised after dawn on Sunday (the 8th day). 

There's a detailed study at my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/45-Three-Days-Nights.pdf

 

 

 

All I can say about this is that I marvel how hard you have to work at wresting scripture (such as when he was taken into custody, heart of the earth etc.) to get away from the natural and simplest interpretation that Christ just WAS dead for 3 days and 3 nights meaning He cannot have been crucified on a Friday.  But at least you have shown me how folks entertain the Friday crucifixion, and how they do the maths.

They/you are wrong of course, but it is not a salvation issue either (even though it was the only sign Christ would give, that of Jonah.  Jonah was in a whale for 3 days and 3 nights, no more, no less, no interpretation about this needed, no adding nights or parts of nights).

If one wants to know which year Christ was crucified, and if this was important to you, then believing in a Friday crucifixion will always take you to the wrong year.  This is why even "little" truths or lies can lock or unlock further truths.  Apologies for being so blunt and opinionated here.

All I can ask is be open to the idea that it may not have been Friday.  I believe it was the apostate Roman church/empire who promulgated this myth, which Adventists still buy into.  Sola scriptura.

I believe Christ kept the Passover on the night of the full moon, while the Jews kept it a day later.  If I were interested, I would look for a Wednesday afternoon crucifixion, where the full moon occurred on a  Tues night, but the Hebrew/Jewish calendar places Passover on the Wed night (their start of the 15th).  This would be around 31 AD where the Jews, due to postponements, kept the Passover on the night after the full moon.  Most folks are not aware that the Jewish calendar has postponements of annual holy days to make keeping these more convenient for the Jews.  Jesus also kept it on the start of the 15th Abib or Nisan meaning at sunset as the 14th Abib/Nisan was ending.  Thus, there must have been some mistake in the Jewish calendar for Christ to keep Passover a day before the Jews.  And I believe Christ got the right day for Passover, over the Jews choice of day.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

My only observation in a previous post was the "they" highlighted is different to the "him".  So I don't think the Man of Sin necessarily places the abomination.

Are not the "forces" under the direction and orders of "him" ?  They are "forces mustered by HIM". 

[8thdaypriest]

All I can say about this is that I marvel how hard you have to work at wresting scripture (such as when he was taken into custody, heart of the earth etc.) to get away from the natural and simplest interpretation that Christ just WAS dead for 3 days and 3 nights meaning He cannot have been crucified on a Friday.  But at least you have shown me how folks entertain the Friday crucifixion, and how they do the maths.

They/you are wrong of course, but it is not a salvation issue either (even though it was the only sign Christ would give, that of Jonah.  Jonah was in a whale for 3 days and 3 nights, no more, no less, no interpretation about this needed, no adding nights or parts of nights).

If one wants to know which year Christ was crucified, and if this was important to you, then believing in a Friday crucifixion will always take you to the wrong year.  This is why even "little" truths or lies can lock or unlock further truths.  Apologies for being so blunt and opinionated here.

All I can ask is be open to the idea that it may not have been Friday.  I believe it was the apostate Roman church/empire who promulgated this myth, which Adventists still buy into.  Sola scriptura.

I believe Christ kept the Passover on the night of the full moon, while the Jews kept it a day later.  If I were interested, I would look for a Wednesday afternoon crucifixion, where the full moon occurred on a  Tues night, but the Hebrew/Jewish calendar places Passover on the Wed night (their start of the 15th).  This would be around 31 AD where the Jews, due to postponements, kept the Passover on the night after the full moon.  Most folks are not aware that the Jewish calendar has postponements of annual holy days to make keeping these more convenient for the Jews.  Jesus also kept it on the start of the 15th Abib or Nisan meaning at sunset as the 14th Abib/Nisan was ending.  Thus, there must have been some mistake in the Jewish calendar for Christ to keep Passover a day before the Jews.  And I believe Christ got the right day for Passover, over the Jews choice of day.

Ten times Jesus said that He would rise the third day.  Peter said, "Him God raised up the third day" (Acts 10:40).  Paul said, "He rose again the third day" (1 Cor 15:4).  He could not rise ON the third day, AND rise AFTER 3 full days and 3 full nights.  It would have to be one or the other.  My resolution to this seeming Scriptural inconsistency, is to realize that "the heart of the earth" experience ALSO INCLUDED the time that He suffered before He was placed in the tomb.   

Thank you for sharing your opinion on this.  We will just have to agree to disagree. 

[Wingnut]

Ten times Jesus said that He would rise the third day.  Peter said, "Him God raised up the third day" (Acts 10:40).  Paul said, "He rose again the third day" (1 Cor 15:4).  He could not rise ON the third day, AND rise AFTER 3 full days and 3 full nights.  It would have to be one or the other.  My resolution to this seeming Scriptural inconsistency, is to realize that "the heart of the earth" experience ALSO INCLUDED the time that He suffered before He was placed in the tomb.   

Thank you for sharing your opinion on this.  We will just have to agree to disagree. 

Mark 8:31 KJV

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/mark/8-31.html

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed , and after three days rise again

 

There is one way you can rise "after three days" and "up the third day" - and that is to rise at the cusp of the day, viz. Saturday sunset.

Notice how careful the gospel writers were to point out that Christ was placed in the tomb at the very cusp of the day viz. sunset.  This is no mere detail.  This is vital to the count, cusp to cusp.

[Wingnut]

Let us invoke a referee to judge between your and my explanations of 3 days and 3 nights.

Occam's razor is a logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher  William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one

My explanation requires drawing a one-to-one comparison between Christ's and Jonah's experience.

Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale .......Christ was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth (tomb)

The count started when Jonah was swallowed, and ended when he was vomited out..... The count started when Jesus was placed in the tomb (at sunset) and ended when He left the tomb (sunset).

I don't have to interpret days or nights, I just have to accept...

Wed night = night 1

Thursday day = day 1

Thursday night = night 2

Friday day = day 2

Friday night = night 3

Saturday day = day 3

Now we are at Saturday sunset which is ON the third day, and AFTER three days since sunset is a moment in time.

 

Now let's look at your complicated reply.  

Would any Jew hearing this prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights have been able to draw a one-to-one comparison with Jonah?

You claim that part of the count occurs Thurs night when He was arrested.  Thus part of your count is outside the tomb, and some is inside the tomb.  But Jonah was not partly in the whale and partly outside the whale.

Then you say "heart of the land" means Jerusalem.  But Jesus spent many days before this in Jerusalem.  Then you add, the count starts when He was arrested and fell into enemy hands.  

Using Occam, which explanation sounds simpler?

And here you face an even more serious problem?  If Christ speaks this way, that a seemingly simple statement like "3 days and 3 nights" requires the listener to have esoteric knowledge that this actually means all you say it means, then when Christ says "love your enemies" how do I know He does not mean whatever you say it means?  

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,

It's doubtful that we can come to any definitive conclusion on this one.   There are other threads on this forum addressing the 3 days/3nites issue.  It's been debated for over a thousand years. 

I would rather talk about the Gog & Magog Battle.  I'm looking for clues to determine whether there will indeed be a Gog/Magog Battle BEFORE the Second Coming.  I KNOW there is one AFTER the 1000 years. 

[8thdaypriest]

Here's one of the threads debating the 3D/3N Jonah prophecy.  http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/4964-what-day-was-jesus-crucified/?page=1

Here's another one:  http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/54499-jesus-arose-from-the-tomb-on-the-first-day-of-the-week/?page=1

Edited October 23, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Wingnut]

Wingnut,

It's doubtful that we can come to any definitive conclusion on this one.   There are other threads on this forum addressing the 3 days/3nites issue.  It's been debated for over a thousand years. 

I would rather talk about the Gog & Magog Battle.  I'm looking for clues to determine whether there will indeed be a Gog/Magog Battle BEFORE the Second Coming.  I KNOW there is one AFTER the 1000 years. 

To me a definitive proof is that at Christ's coming, every prophet says that Israel will be in captivity.

Do we agree on this?

I see no scenario where Israel is taken into captivity in the 8M.

Do we agree on this?

Ezek 39 talks about Israel being in captivity in the same breath it speaks about Gog.

Joining the dots.....

 

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity * of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holyname; 

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasseswhereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt  safely in their land, and none made them afraid . 

27 When I have brought them againfrom the people, and gathered them out of their enemies ' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 

28 Then shall they knowthat I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivityamong the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel,saith the Lord GOD.

 

Ps.  I don't understand why you say "BEFORE".  Please explain to me when this is.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

To me a definitive proof is that at Christ's coming, every prophet says that Israel will be in captivity.

Do we agree on this?

 

Could you give a few verses to show me what you're talking about. 

True "Israel" is Redeemed Faith Israel.  It's NOT about DNA.  It's NOT that Geo-political nation that the world recognizes as "Israel".   True Israel is captive to death, to suffering, to persecution, to dispersion among all the nations.  They long to be "returned to the land", but NOT UNTIL "the land" is governed by Jesus the Messiah. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity * of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holyname; 

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt  safely in their land, and none made them afraid . 

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies ' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

Ps.  I don't understand why you say "BEFORE".  Please explain to me when this is.

The promise of "return" is for the WHOLE "house of Israel".  The dead must be included in this.  Daniel, Joshua, Ezekiel himself - all must be included in this "return to the land".  Hence the resurrection in Chapter 37 BEFORE the "return".  True Israel is "captive" to death, to suffering, to persecution.  She will be "delivered" from that captivity at the SC.

Ezekiel 37:11  "These bones are the whole house of Israel."  v.12  "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."  v. 13  "Then you shall know that I amt he LORD, when i have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves."  v.14  "I will put My Spirit in your and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land."

This prophecy is NOT about the present Geo-political "nation" today known as "Israel".   They don't even believe in Jesus as Messiah.   They forbid Christians citizenship.  Some 85% of the citizens of present "Israel" are secular.  They don't even believe in God, much less in Christ.  They are branches "broken off" from the "tree". 

True "Israel" is redeemed faith Israel.  It's NOT about DNA.  It's about faith. 

Thing is - I can see Satan, setting up a miraculous "deliverance" at a Gog/Magog type battle, to deceive the whole world into believing that he (Satan) is Christ come.  The citizens of present day DNA-Israel could be deceived in to worshiping such a "deliverer".  

There is DNA-Israel.  And there is redeemed Faith-Israel.  Satan will USE the present nation of DNA-Israel to deceive. 

I believe that Satan brought about the present day "return to the land" for DNA-Israel, not God.  I realize that is NOT politically correct, and evangelicals would hate me for saying such a thing.  But I see Satan's fingerprints all over the present Israel/Muslim conflict.  Satan will make it appear that prophecy has been fulfilled.     Satan will do this in order to deceive the whole world, into accepting him as their Messiah. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

 

Ps.  I don't understand why you say "BEFORE".  Please explain to me when this is.

BECAUSE I do not believe that ANY human beings will survive the last wrath plagues, to continue living on the earth. 

The ONLY possibilities therefore are 1. People from "the rest of the dead" who do not accept Christ as LORD, coming up in rebellion, seeking to overthrow the reign of Christ.  This can only happen AFTER the 1000 years. 

And 2.  a possible counterfeit Battle of Armageddon, engineered and brought about by Satan, to bring the world to worship him, as deliverer.  This Battle could take place BEFORE the SC, and would involve Muslim nations vs. the present nation the world calls "Israel". 

[8thdaypriest]

PS:  Don't be quoting philosophers, and telling me that I'm not logical.   You can tell me WHY you believe WHAT you believe, but don't call me illogical, just because I do not agree with your conclusions. 

[Wingnut]

PS:  Don't be quoting philosophers, and telling me that I'm not logical.   You can tell me WHY you believe WHAT you believe, but don't call me illogical, just because I do not agree with your conclusions. 

I reread my post, and I don't see where I  called you illogical.  I told you to join the dots or come to your own conclusions.

Unless you are referring to some other post, in which case point this out please, before I go any further.

You said in the 3D/3N that Christ could not come ON the 3D and AFTER the 3D, that this was (logically) impossible.  I pointed out the flaw in that argument by having him rise on the cusp of the day.  So I give up as to what you are referring to.

I don't know you, but just my impression is that you are closed to certain ideas, which I thought we were trying to debate. You believe all will be dead at the 2nd coming on earth.  Therefore you feel the Gog battle HAS to be before this.  If you are closed to the idea of people surviving the 2nd coming, then please tell me, and I will not waste any more time.  

Likewise the 3D and 3N.  I presented what I feel was a watertight case, and now we must "agree to disagree" just because I feel I painted you  into a corner.  What do I care if it was on a Friday or a Wed?  I am prepared to change, and have.  

Likewise with the timing of Gog.  It is not like your whole world will fall apart if you have to change on the timing of something is it?  

Maybe I am lucky I am just a prophecy hobbyist, so I have less invested in being right or not.  To me, none of this will ever affect me in my lifetime, so who cares?

I don't know why others go on forums, but I do to engage in a meaningful discussion with someone, in the hope that one of us will be proven wrong and have to change his/her mind.  When I find this is not the case, I go elsewhere, because I believe this is how the Holy Spirit operates as well.  If someone is not open to change, God, being a gentleman, goes elsewhere, as do I.

[Wingnut]

PS:  Don't be quoting philosophers, and telling me that I'm not logical.   You can tell me WHY you believe WHAT you believe, but don't call me illogical, just because I do not agree with your conclusions. 

Now that I have had my coffee, I take it the "philosopher" you were referring to was Occham and his razor,.

Did you not like his treatment of your super-complicated argument, vs his treatment of my super simple one?

That is not calling you illogical, it is a method widely accepted, as to how to arrive at truth.  Used a lot in science today.  Always choose the simplest explanation where there are more than one which seem to fit the data.

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,

I feel the case for complete and total destruction of earth by the last wrath plagues, to the point of "without form and void", is OVERWHELMING.  Void of life.  "Uninhabited place." 

I wanted to continue the discussion, with the idea that a Gog/Magog type battle could take place BEFORE the Second Coming.  But I think you are I are too far apart in our views of prophecy. 

I wish you very well. 

Rachel

[Wingnut]

Wingnut,

I feel the case for complete and total destruction of earth by the last wrath plagues, to the point of "without form and void", is OVERWHELMING.  Void of life.  "Uninhabited place." 

I wanted to continue the discussion, with the idea that a Gog/Magog type battle could take place BEFORE the Second Coming.  But I think you are I are too far apart in our views of prophecy. 

I wish you very well. 

Rachel

Rachel

I know a time in earth's history when the Bible describes earth as being "tohu" and "bohu" or "without form and void" and yet at that time earth was teeming with life.

And again you confirm that you do not want to entertain a Gog/Magog battle AT the Second Coming.  

Thus it certainly is time to cease and desist from scourging a moribund equine.