Members phkrause Posted October 25, 2015 Members Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) by Pr Maurice Berry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdXon0FZp9g Edited October 25, 2015 by phkrause Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted November 18, 2015 Author Members Posted November 18, 2015 38 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: He says that Islam will "once again be brought under the control of Western powers." He was referring to something that happened in 1840, I think where he says something similar happened around then, with Islam Making the case for how history repeats itself. I am thinking that according to Daniel, chapter two, God is in control, and He is the One who "sets up Kings and brings them down." Its kind of hard now to look at the news and see God as being in control; yet history does show that He always has been. Yes God is and always has been in control. Sojourner 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Ted Oplinger Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 13 hours ago, The Wanderer said: He says that Islam will "once again be brought under the control of Western powers." He was referring to something that happened in 1840, I think where he says something similar happened around then, with Islam Making the case for how history repeats itself. I am thinking that according to Daniel, chapter two, God is in control, and He is the One who "sets up Kings and brings them down." Its kind of hard now to look at the news and see God as being in control; yet history does show that He always has been. Pr. Berry is referring to the 2 time prophecies of the 5th and 6th trumpets, and their application by Josiah Lich to the Ottoman Empire's affliction of the Fallen church beginning in 1299, to its ending that affliction and surrendering same by accepting the protection of Christian nations on August 11, 1840. It should be studied by every serious prophecy student, as God used this fulfillment to assure the 2700 day prophecy would end exactly as He said it would, 4 years later in 1844. The various Mohammedan peoples still chaff at this, and though their strength seems to be rising today, I notice that these Middle East nations are still under to protection of professed Christian nations - they appeal to Russia, Britain/America, Germany, and/or France for help and support for their regimes to fight against the surging Mohammedan uprisings...just like the Ottoman Empire did to protect itself from the same kind of uprising from its Egypt province in 1840. God is still ultimately in control. Blessings, Lauralea, Sojourner and phkrause 3 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Samie Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 2 hours ago, Ted Oplinger said: Pr. Berry is referring to the 2 time prophecies of the 5th and 6th trumpets, and their application by Josiah Lich to the Ottoman Empire's affliction of the Fallen church beginning in 1299, to its ending that affliction and surrendering same by accepting the protection of Christian nations on August 11, 1840. NKJ Revelation 9:1-6 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Anybody who can give any hint how v6 above found fulfillment in the 150-year-affliction of the Fallen Church by the Ottoman Empire? Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Since the word "men" was explicitly linked to "those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads", then it stands that these men tormented for 5 months are not Christians, but Mohommedan converts from Christianity having to deal with the abuse heaped upon them for being second-class citizens. They sought to save their lives by converting, yet found themselves living a fate much worse than dying for Christ would be. Sojourner and phkrause 2 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Samie Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 54 minutes ago, Ted Oplinger said: They sought to save their lives by converting, yet found themselves living a fate much worse than dying for Christ would be. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Sounds to me like, not a single person dies during the 150-day affliction. And that rings the bell that the 150 days could be literal days. There's really a lot more study that had to be done. And to think that this is Revelation where its Author says: Revelation 22:18-19 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Intermixing literalism with the explicit symbolism present is a certain way to get the prophecy wrong, and arrive at a private interpretation. God was pleased to have Josiah Lich apply it correctly to the events of 1840 (right down to the date), as the run-up for the 2700 day prophecy's termination in 1844. Infidel clubs (that's unbelievers to the uninitiated) all over Europe and America saw that fulfillment to be true - and a significant number of these converted. I'll stick to that for now. phkrause 1 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Samie Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 14 minutes ago, Ted Oplinger said: Intermixing literalism with the explicit symbolism present is a certain way to get the prophecy wrong, and arrive at a private interpretation. Rev 9:6 says 5 months, so why would believing it to be 5 months as the verse explicitly says be private interpretation when there is in fact no interpretation involved but simply believing the verse as written? 8thdaypriest and JoeMo 2 Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 1 hour ago, Samie said: Rev 9:6 says 5 months, so why would believing it to be 5 months as the verse explicitly says be private interpretation when there is in fact no interpretation involved but simply believing the verse as written? Because of the fact God inspired Josiah Lich to interpret that prophecy with the year for a day principle to make a proper application - prophetic time is prophetic time, Samie. The God-supported application was made over 140 years ago. But why stop there, Samie? The forty and two months prophecy awaits literal application...as does the 2700 evenings and mornings...because those, also, were written as is. Then again, Samie, so was the appointing of a day for a year in both Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:6...the Law and the Prophets...by God Himself. The Trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 are all written in symbols. The times are to be regarded a symbols...just like the others. Otherwise, Samie, you are bound to take the rest of those verses as written: Literal locusts, with human faces, long hair like a woman's, a lion's teeth, a scorpion's tail with stinger, and each insect wearing a crown. So, yes, I take the symbols as they written, and allow the Bible to interpret those symbols as the Lord sees fit. No need to re-invent the wheel where God has already shown the way. phkrause 1 Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Members phkrause Posted November 19, 2015 Author Members Posted November 19, 2015 Exactly Ted, great posts!! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 2 hours ago, phkrause said: Exactly Ted, great posts!! Among his great posts, are the 2700 mornings and evenings included, too? Quote
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Posted November 19, 2015 5 hours ago, Ted Oplinger said: But why stop there, Samie? The forty and two months prophecy awaits literal application...as does the 2700 evenings and mornings...because those, also, were written as is. Not the 2700. I cannot possibly address that. That's 400 days too many. Try objecting to this time-chart, if you can think of any. I'll be happy to address your objections: The number of days in this chart are literal days. I'll wait for your objections or comments, Ted. Quote
JoeMo Posted November 27, 2015 Posted November 27, 2015 On 11/18/2015, 4:33:42, Ted Oplinger said: Then again, Samie, so was the appointing of a day for a year in both Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:6...the Law and the Prophets...by God Himself. One little problem - the two scriptural references represent a specific prophetic interpretation of impending judgement - not end-time eschatology. It is the only two places in all of scripture that applies the "day for a year" interpretation. No where else does it say a day for a year; except in Daniel's prophecy about the 70 weeks of years - again Daniel was being very explicit. One of the logical problems I have with the "day for a year" proposition being applied to all prophecy is, that if it applies to everything else in Daniel and Revelation, why does it not apply to the 1,000-year reign of Christ before the White Throne Judgement? Is the prophetic 1,000 years really a literal 360,000 years? If not, where are we given a hint in scripture that the "day for year" principle no longer applies? 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
Members phkrause Posted November 28, 2015 Author Members Posted November 28, 2015 I believe most Biblical Scholars don't consider the 1,000 years as a "prophecy," but just a literal time. It comes after the prophecy of the second coming, which in my understandng is the last prophecy to be fulfilled. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
8thdaypriest Posted November 29, 2015 Posted November 29, 2015 On 11/27/2015, 8:58:40, phkrause said: I believe most Biblical Scholars don't consider the 1,000 years as a "prophecy," but just a literal time. It comes after the prophecy of the second coming, which in my understandng is the last prophecy to be fulfilled. The 1000 years when the saints will reign with Christ as priests and kings - is NOT A PROPHECY??? Really??? A prophecy predicts something - which is FUTURE. The FUTURE 1000 years, seem to fit the definition of a prophecy. You seem to be saying that it's NOT a "day for year" prophecy. But what would exempt it??? Personally - I believe that Sanctuary Times, and Sanctuary symbolism, hold the KEY to understanding future prophecies. The ENTIRE Sanctuary - including every ceremony performed there, WAS given as a prophecy. I look at the things to be accomplished at the END of the 70 "sevens", and see Day of Atonement (NOT just His death at Calvary). "finish the transgression" - "make an end of sins" - "make reconciliation for iniquity" - "bring in everlasting righteousness" - "anoint the most Holy" (Dan 9:24 KJV). WHEN were sins finally GONE (transferred to the head of the scapegoat, and banished to the uninhabited place)? Answer: Day of Atonement. WHEN did the LORD "make reconciliation" for Israel? Answer: Day of Atonement. WHEN did the High Priest "anoint the Most Holy" Place? Answer: Day of Atonement. The YEARLY cycle of "appointed times" was a PROPHECY of the work that Christ would do for humanity - first as the "Lamb of God", and then as our High Priest. The SAME is true of the 70 Weeks PROPHECY. Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Quote The Wanderer: Its kind of hard now to look at the news and see God as being in control; yet history does show that He always has been. phkrause: Yes God is and always has been in control. If God is in control, why do we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 51 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: If God is in control, why do we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"? Because God wants us to remind ourselves that He is in control; and we look forward to the literal, final "Day of Atonement" redemption of the planet where God's will WILL be done on earth; just as it is in heaven! phkrause and Sojourner 2 Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 If God wants to remind us that He is in control, asking for His will to be done seems like an odd way to do that. If His will were being done, we wouldn't have to pray that it be done, right? If His will is not being done, then we're back to my question as to what does it mean to say that God is in control? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Members phkrause Posted December 1, 2015 Author Members Posted December 1, 2015 5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: If God wants to remind us that He is in control, asking for His will to be done seems like an odd way to do that. If His will were being done, we wouldn't have to pray that it be done, right? If His will is not being done, then we're back to my question as to what does it mean to say that God is in control? Have you read the OT?? I think you have. God was always in control, was he not?????? He allowed Israel to go into captivity and than allowed them to go back to there homeland, time and time again. JoeMo 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
8thdaypriest Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 13 hours ago, jackson said: Rachel, Daniel's prayer was for his people and Jerusalem. He knew the 70 years of captivity prophecy of Jeremiah was just about up, but he feared that God might not bring the captivity of his people to an end because of their transgressions. He knew of Jerm 18:8-9 which said: Jerm 18:9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it]; 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Daniel's heartfelt prayer for his people and Jerusalem was answered by God and Gabriel gave Daniel the time for the decree to end the captivity. The decree was given in the 7 year of Artaxerxes and it has been determined by historical records as occurring in 457 BC. The 70 week prophecy has a beginning date and runs unbroken to its finish date, 34 AD. It is the only prophecy in all the Bible that dates the coming of the Messiah, and his crucifixion. Some would like to break off the last 7 years and put them at the end of time somewhere as you are attempting to do in your post , but then that would not be a 70 week prophecy but rather a near 2500 year prophecy and would be unable to explain the Messiah being"cut-off" in the middle of the week and causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease.; nor would it explain the end of the Jewish dispensation at the end of the 70 week prophecy. When Jesus answered Peter and said not just to forgive 7 times but 70 times 7 , He was also showing the mercy of God in that after ther 70 year exile for apostasy he was to mercifully given them 70 times 7 more years of probation. All the things accomplished in this prophecy were accomplished during the 70 weeks (490 years) "finish the transgression" - "make an end of sins" - "make reconciliation for iniquity" - "bring in everlasting righteousness" - "anoint the most Holy" (Dan 9:24 KJV). Add to that: confirming the covenant with many; dying not for his own sins; dying in the middle of the 70th week ( 3 &1/2years into His ministry )and causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease. When Jesus answered Peter and said not just to forgive 7 times but 70 times 7 , He was also showing the mercy of God in that after their 70 year exile for apostasy he was to mercifully given them 70 times 7 more years of probation. But they new not the hour of their visitation and : For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on everyside and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.“ Luke 19:41-2 The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof who "In time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.“ Matt 21:43 Jackson, I believe the prophecy given to Daniel of the 70 7s, can be understood as a dual prophecy. The fulfillment of Messiah's death in the "midst of the week", certainly seems to "fit", but the fulfillment is not perfect. Jesus commanded His followers to "go ye therefore and teach all nations" moments before He ascended to heaven. He didn't tell them to wait 3.5 more years, until probation closed for the Jews, and only to teach Jews in the meantime. He told them to wait at Jerusalem for the promise of the Father, which was the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. That was NOT a very long wait. Messiah is NOT the one - in this prophecy - who causes the sacrifices to cease. It is "the prince who is to come", whose troupes destroy the City. And it is AFTER the City is destroyed that "he" (the prince to come) makes a covenant (not "the" covenant) with many, and it is halfway through this "week" that "he" (the prince to come) brings an end to sacrifices. "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (NKJ) The dating of the command to "restore and to build Jerusalem" to 457BC has been MUCH debated. I realize that SDAs are very sure of this date. But others are NOT. The reason that traditional SDAs are so keen to prove 457 as the start of the 70 weeks, is BECAUSE they claim the 2300 "evening mornings" also began with that command, and that leads directly to Oct 22nd, 1844, and their doctrine of the investigative judgment - as if Jesus really needed to "investigate" His own sheep. He said Himself, "I know my sheep". He certainly doesn't need 175 years+ to determine who "follow" Him. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 18 hours ago, phkrause said: Have you read the OT?? I think you have. God was always in control, was he not?????? He allowed Israel to go into captivity and than allowed them to go back to there homeland, time and time again. How are you thinking that the OT shows that God was in control? I think a lot here depends on how one interprets the phrase "in control", which is rather a vague phrase. Does "in control" imply things are going the way that you want them to go? When I think of the OT, it certainly doesn't strike me as a picture of things going according to plan. When I look at Jesus, to me that's a picture of what it looks like when God is in control. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted December 2, 2015 Posted December 2, 2015 21 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: How are you thinking that the OT shows that God was in control? I think a lot here depends on how one interprets the phrase "in control", which is rather a vague phrase. Does "in control" imply things are going the way that you want them to go? When I think of the OT, it certainly doesn't strike me as a picture of things going according to plan. When I look at Jesus, to me that's a picture of what it looks like when God is in control. When God gave man a free will, I must admit that he voluntarily surrendered a certain amount of control. God taking complete control (before Has "strange act" to save His elect) would ampunt to God rescinding our free will. It may not seem that God is in control right now, but I assure you that He will eventually take complete control again; and at that time we will see that He has been in control all along. Read Psalm 73 to see how Asaph responded to the age-old problem of of watching the wicked prosper while he was struggling. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 2, 2015 Posted December 2, 2015 1 hour ago, JoeMo said: When God gave man a free will, I must admit that he voluntarily surrendered a certain amount of control. God taking complete control (before Has "strange act" to save His elect) would ampunt to God rescinding our free will. It may not seem that God is in control right now, but I assure you that He will eventually take complete control again; and at that time we will see that He has been in control all along. Read Psalm 73 to see how Asaph responded to the age-old problem of of watching the wicked prosper while he was struggling. I don't know what the phrase "He has been in control all along" means. Could you say the same thing using different words? I agree with this comment you made: "God taking complete control (before Has "strange act" to save His elect) would amount to God rescinding our free will." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted December 2, 2015 Posted December 2, 2015 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: I don't know what the phrase "He has been in control all along" means. Could you say the same thing using different words? What I mean is that God is not sitting in heaven wringing His hands saying "O dear; what do I do now?". Nor is He standing there gloating and saying "it serves them right for defying Me!". He is watching worldly and spiritual realm events very closely; and in His time, He will take over. We have to realize that life here on earth isn't all there is. Our earthly existemce in this fragile tent is a mere blink of an eye in eternity. The violence and injustice we suffer in this life is nothing compared to the glory, power, and happiness we will experience in the other 99.999999% of eternity. After a few million years in the kingdom, we'll barely remember it any more. Islam will be as extinct as the dinosaurs are now. The rise of Islam will just be a brief "dead cat" bounce in the history of existence. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 2, 2015 Posted December 2, 2015 6 minutes ago, JoeMo said: What I mean is that God is not sitting in heaven wringing His hands saying "O dear; what do I do now?". Nor is He standing there gloating and saying "it serves them right for defying Me!". He is watching worldly and spiritual realm events very closely; and in His time, He will take over. We have to realize that life here on earth isn't all there is. Our earthly existemce in this fragile tent is a mere blink of an eye in eternity. The violence and injustice we suffer in this life is nothing compared to the glory, power, and happiness we will experience in the other 99.999999% of eternity. After a few million years in the kingdom, we'll barely remember it any more. Islam will be as extinct as the dinosaurs are now. The rise of Islam will just be a brief "dead cat" bounce in the history of existence. You are saying that when you said "God has always been in control" what you meant is "God is not sitting in heaven wringing His hands saying 'O dear; what do I do now?'" I would not have guess that this is what the phrase "God has always been in control" means. These seem to me to be saying two quite different things. I don't think anybody is suggesting that God is wringing His hands saying, "What should I do now?" However, the question of what it means to say "God is sovereign" (which is essentially what I'm asking about), is a vital question. Our concept as to God's character can't be overemphasized. I'm clarifying this because I don't want to give the impression that I'm being frivolous or picky for no reason. Regarding the OT, what comes to my mind is not that God has always been in control, but rather that God has always had a plan in mind, and has acted according to that plan. I think we will be able to look back at history, and see that God has always and consistently worked towards one goal, which is to eliminate sin, but this is a plan which takes a long time to enact, and I believe that it will be seen that God enacted the solution to the problem as quickly as was possible. I think this is quite a different concept than that God has always been in control, however, which to my mind would imply that the way in which things have gone has been in accordance with God's will. There are people who understand "in control" in exactly this way, which is why I've been asking for clarification on this point. Regarding "in His time, He will take over", I don't see things in this way, as I'm interpreting the phrase and the punctuation, as it is to me implying that God will take a different, and uncustomary violent action in order to accomplish His will, or something similar to this. Admittedly I'm reading a lot into this, and could well be wrong as to your intent. What I see happening is that there must be time and space, so to speak, for evidence to be presented so that intelligent decisions can be made, and when that happens, then God releases "the winds of strife". 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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