The Rise of Islam

[LifeHiscost]

One of the most important principles to recognize about the love of God is His willingness to take upon Himself all of the degradation of man, not because it was what He wanted from the beginning, but because it was the only way love could reign supreme and still save those who didn't deserve one iota of His concern. If we believe as fallen human beings we will ever understand or be able to explain to our full satisfaction what pure unselfishness is like, it only reveals how little of the Word we do understand. Here is an example of that misunderstanding of the God Who is Love.

It rivals the reality that there could be a rebel in the heavens.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord....Isaiah 55

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

17 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

You are saying that when you said "God has always been in control" what you meant is "God is not sitting in heaven wringing His hands saying 'O dear; what do I do now?'"  I would not have guess that this is what the phrase "God has always been in control" means.  These seem to me to be saying two quite different things.  I don't think anybody is suggesting that God is wringing His hands saying, "What should I do now?"  However, the question of what it means to say "God is sovereign" (which is essentially what I'm asking about), is a vital question.  Our concept as to God's character can't be overemphasized.  I'm clarifying this because I don't want to give the impression that I'm being frivolous or picky for no reason.

What I'm about to say is my personal opinion based on study and the mental construct I have made to wrap my head around this.  I'm sure there are some who will disagree; and that's OK - it's my personal opinion; not doctrine.

God is totally sovereign.  He can do or not do whatever He pleases at any time.  There are a couple of areas where I believe God - in His sovereignity - has chosen to limit His sovereignity over man by:

1. Only acting out of love for humanity.  He has sovereignly chosen to be a "Good God" - merciful, loving, kind, and patient towards us rather than arbitrary, dictatorial, and vicious.  That doen't mean that He "saves" everybody; it just means that He offers salvation as a free gift to all who would believe and accept Him.

2. Choosing to give man a free will.  In doing this, He has sovereignly chosen to empower man to choose for or against God.  As long as man's free-will actions do not put His elect on an inescapable path to certain extinction, He will allow man to carry out his free-will activities in spite of collateral damage.  Once people (or nature) cross the line and put God's elect on the verge of an unalterable path towards extinction, God WILL intervene; and His ultimate soveriegn will will be executed.  This path may include (but not be limited to) extreme religious, social,economic, and/or political persecution; or extreme natural disasters (like major earthquakes, floods, volcanic activity, global warming, tsunamis, and/or meteor strikes).

We know how the story ends.  Righteousness will overcome evil. God's will will reign supreme.  He has everything under control.  Don't worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow.  God is already there taking care of business.  Any evil we experience now will shrivel to insignificants in light of eternity.

[JoeMo]

LHC,

I found the video fascinating.  Those are indeed difficult verses to understand the way the commentator presented them.  However, if one reads those verses in context  with the story God is trying to tell, we see that God always gives man a way out.  God/god has rules, but Elohim also shows mercy.  Elohim forgives. Don't know if you can say that about Allaah.

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

What I'm about to say is my personal opinion based on study and the mental construct I have made to wrap my head around this.  I'm sure there are some who will disagree; and that's OK - it's my personal opinion; not doctrine.

God is totally sovereign.  He can do or not do whatever He pleases at any time.  There are a couple of areas where I believe God - in His sovereignity - has chosen to limit His sovereignity over man by:

1. Only acting out of love for humanity.  He has sovereignly chosen to be a "Good God" - merciful, loving, kind, and patient towards us rather than arbitrary, dictatorial, and vicious.  That doen't mean that He "saves" everybody; it just means that He offers salvation as a free gift to all who would believe and accept Him.

2. Choosing to give man a free will.  In doing this, He has sovereignly chosen to empower man to choose for or against God.  As long as man's free-will actions do not put His elect on an inescapable path to certain extinction, He will allow man to carry out his free-will activities in spite of collateral damage.  Once people (or nature) cross the line and put God's elect on the verge of an unalterable path towards extinction, God WILL intervene; and His ultimate soveriegn will will be executed.  This path may include (but not be limited to) extreme religious, social,economic, and/or political persecution; or extreme natural disasters (like major earthquakes, floods, volcanic activity, global warming, tsunamis, and/or meteor strikes).

We know how the story ends.  Righteousness will overcome evil. God's will will reign supreme.  He has everything under control.  Don't worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow.  God is already there taking care of business.  Any evil we experience now will shrivel to insignificants in light of eternity.

This was a nicely written post.  Thanks for clearly writing out your thoughts.

[8thdaypriest]

LHC seemed to say that the human race does "not deserve" God's notice or mercy. 

Does an abused child, born into a terribly dysfunctional family "deserve" to be rescued, to be given love and security???  Most would say "Yes!" 

Well - we humans did NOT give our consent, to be born into THIS dysfunctional human "family".  We did not give our consent, to be dropped into this WAR between super spirit powers.  We did not consent to be deceived, and abused (in one way or another). 

God thought we DID deserve His efforts to rescue us.  He gave His own Son - to die with us, and for us.  THAT is how much VALUE we hold - for God.  If we really were not "worth it", that makes God a fool. 

God is NOT a fool, and we WERE worth it!!  Jesus "will see of the travail of His soul, and be satisfied." 

You remember that hymn with the phrase "for such a worm as I".  I dislike that song - intensely.  I'm NOT a worm!!  I'm a human being.  I was born into a terribly dysfunctional "family" called the human race.  But God has taken me as His foster child, and will soon adopt me forever!! 

(My own family was dysfunctional too.  My mother and I were the ONLY believers.  The rest are atheist to this day.) 

Now - it's true that most human beings will RESIST His drawing spirit, and the story of His love.  They will never be healed.  They will remain "lost", and will finally pass out of existence forever -  Because our "adoption" requires our consent.  Some even morph into wolves who prey on the flock.  These God will judge. 

[phkrause]

Here's another video about Islam by Steve Wohlberg of White Horse Media. There is a audio problem at the beginning, for about 3 minutes. I believe you can FF past it.

 

ps: I'm wrong, it doesn't look like you can FF, you have to just turn down the sound and than he starts over from the beginning.

[LifeHiscost]

On 12/3/2015, 8:48:44, JoeMo said:

LHC,

I found the video fascinating.  Those are indeed difficult verses to understand the way the commentator presented them.  However, if one reads those verses in context  with the story God is trying to tell, we see that God always gives man a way out.  God/god has rules, but Elohim also shows mercy.  Elohim forgives. Don't know if you can say that about Allaah.

Spiritual warfare started in Heaven and the instigator of that is a master at turning every nuance of negative thought to his own favor. Those who choose to believe the first one to introduce a lie into man's experience, over and against all the care and concern God, Who is Love, had given His created beings over the unlimited aeons before, have no excuse for their loss of freedom.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,…Romans 6

God is Love!   Jesus saves!     

[8thdaypriest]

There's a book, available at amazon, by Glenn Beck, titled "It is about ISLAM".  It contains quotations from ISLAM showing the source of their Jihad.  It's good for sharing, to show others the source of the Jihad movement, so they cannot say the Jihadists are non-Muslims. 

[LifeHiscost]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There's a book, available at amazon, by Glenn Beck, titled "It is about ISLAM".  It contains quotations from ISLAM showing the source of their Jihad.  It's good for sharing, to show others the source of the Jihad movement, so they cannot say the Jihadists are non-Muslims. 

I watched Elder Dwight Nelson this morning preach on the subject of the love of God for all human kind, focusing primarily on Gods' leading of those in the Muslim community in our present society(SDA) today as compared to the wise men from the east and how they were lifted to a point of worship of the Baby Jesus. He suggested last Sabbaths' presentation could be drawn from the archives, that complimented today's representation, both from Andrews University's Pioneer Memorial church. I'm assuming today's presentation will also be archived.

BTW I watched last Sabbaths' archived sermon and if you want hear of Gods' love revealed through a Muslim, I encourage listening to that sermon, starting about 23:30 minutes.  ,s blessing.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

On 12/4/2015, 10:58:15, 8thdaypriest said:

LHC seemed to say that the human race does "not deserve" God's notice or mercy. 

Does an abused child, born into a terribly dysfunctional family "deserve" to be rescued, to be given love and security???  Most would say "Yes!" 

Well - we humans did NOT give our consent, to be born into THIS dysfunctional human "family".  We did not give our consent, to be dropped into this WAR between super spirit powers.  We did not consent to be deceived, and abused (in one way or another). 

God thought we DID deserve His efforts to rescue us.  He gave His own Son - to die with us, and for us.  THAT is how much VALUE we hold - for God.  If we really were not "worth it", that makes God a fool. 

God is NOT a fool, and we WERE worth it!!  Jesus "will see of the travail of His soul, and be satisfied." 

You remember that hymn with the phrase "for such a worm as I".  I dislike that song - intensely.  I'm NOT a worm!!  I'm a human being.  I was born into a terribly dysfunctional "family" called the human race.  But God has taken me as His foster child, and will soon adopt me forever!! 

(My own family was dysfunctional too.  My mother and I were the ONLY believers.  The rest are atheist to this day.) 

Now - it's true that most human beings will RESIST His drawing spirit, and the story of His love.  They will never be healed.  They will remain "lost", and will finally pass out of existence forever -  Because our "adoption" requires our consent.  Some even morph into wolves who prey on the flock.  These God will judge. 

I've been thinking about this. It's a bit challenging to find the right words, but a couple of thoughts.  One is that the "worm" comment is from Psalm 22, which is Jesus Himself speaking, so if He could feel like a worm, that can happen to us too.  The hymn writer was Isaac Watts, who wrote some of the most profound hymns.  Among his phrases is the following,

1. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
   That were a present far too small;
   Love so amazing, so divine,
   Demands my soul, my life, my all.

So he definitely "got it".

Regarding why God rescued us, is it because we deserved it, or is it His love that makes us worthy?  A chicken/egg question.  What was involved was God's risking His Son.  We hadn't been born.  God could have simply left Adam and Eve to die, and started again.  That God would send His Son at the risk of failure and eternal life is not an intuitive thing to do.

[CoAspen]

Quote

His love that makes us worthy? 

Yes! He created us in His image. We are His children. One could also say because of that, we deserved it.According to my reading of the Bible, a contingency plan was in place before creation. I would suggest that we disrespect God  if we think He doesn't want us, that is, needs us.

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/4/2015, 11:47:58, LifeHiscost said:

Those who choose to believe the first one to introduce a lie into man's experience,  have no excuse for their loss of freedom.

I assume you include in your statement, only those who were taught the "goodness of God" and taught the Law of God. 

Millions were raised from infancy - to HATE (especially Jews and Christians).  Those would be Muslim children.  Millions were raised with abuse - in the name of God (a total misrepresentation of God who "is love").  These children were deceived!!!  The fact that these children grow up to be persons who "believe the lie" is not their FAULT, and will not be laid to their charge.  It is a sin of ignorance.   "They know not what they do." 

I believe these persons will later be resurrected to HEAR the truth, and to then CHOOSE whom they will serve (This during the 8th millennium.)  SDAs mostly believe such persons will simply be left dead "like the beasts".    Either way, they will not be raised to hear judgment pronounced against them.  Why?  Because they were deceived. 

Eve sinned BECAUSE she was deceived (admittedly because she lingered near "the tree").  It was BECAUSE humans were deceived by the Serpent, that God consented to their rescue.  Which is WHY, the greater one's true understanding of God and "His ways", the greater one's guilt when he CHOOSES sin.   Yet even then, if the heart is truly repentant, God will forgive.  King David would be a prime example.  But God's forgiveness of David personally, did NOT prevent the ensuing bloodshed among David's offspring. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/5/2015, 8:59:48, pnattmbtc said:

I've been thinking about this. It's a bit challenging to find the right words, but a couple of thoughts.  One is that the "worm" comment is from Psalm 22, which is Jesus Himself speaking, so if He could feel like a worm, that can happen to us too.  The hymn writer was Isaac Watts, who wrote some of the most profound hymns.  Among his phrases is the following,

1. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
   That were a present far too small;
   Love so amazing, so divine,
   Demands my soul, my life, my all.

So he definitely "got it".

Regarding why God rescued us, is it because we deserved it, or is it His love that makes us worthy?  A chicken/egg question.  What was involved was God's risking His Son.  We hadn't been born.  God could have simply left Adam and Eve to die, and started again.  That God would send His Son at the risk of failure and eternal life is not an intuitive thing to do.

I agree.  It is God who defines me.  I "have value" BECAUSE God says so.  This is why Darwinism, and atheism are sooooo very destructive.  They reduce our value. 

Schools in the US have been teaching Darwinism (and excluding special creation) for a generation now.  We are just beginning to see the results. 

Islam  says the individual has value only as that individual serves Islam.  All else are without value.  Which is why they can kill them without hesitation. 

[JoeMo]

Here is a moderate Muslim leader's view on what moderate Islam should do to counter jihadists.  I thought his idea was pretty good (6 minutes).

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4649854450001/moderate-muslims-lead-effort-to-tackle-extremist-threat-/?playlist_id=922779230001#playlist_id=922779230001&sp=show-clips&v=4649854450001

[CoAspen]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is why Darwinism, and atheism are sooooo very destructive.  They reduce our value. 

?? Source for that belief ??

I have yet to hear any person who is is an evolutionist or atheist devalue human life....organized religions have been very good at doing such.

[pnattmbtc]

On 12/5/2015, 9:01:08, The Wanderer said:

Neither of these two options would be correct. It is because of our need, not His.

This was in regards to the following question: "Regarding why God rescued us, is it because we deserved it, or is it His love that makes us worthy?"

I agree that it is because of our need, but do not see any conflict between affirming this, and affirming that God's love creates value in us, although articulating this concept is a bit tricky.  That that the need is ours and not God's is a very important point to note.

[pnattmbtc]

19 hours ago, CoAspen said:

?? Source for that belief ??

I have yet to hear any person who is is an evolutionist or atheist devalue human life....organized religions have been very good at doing such.

I didn't write the post you are responding to, but a couple of times come immediately to my mind.  One is that under Darwinism, all animals are essentially equal in value.  A second is that under Christianity, human beings have value equivalent to the value of Christ, given that Christ gave His life for man.

[CoAspen]

Quote

 A second is that under Christianity, human beings have value .....

Unless, they believe differently, look different, etc, etc.

Humans have equal value under Darwinism or atheism. 

Way too much time is spent on trying to make one group/ideas/etc as being more 'correct' than an other.

[LifeHiscost]

On 12/3/2015 at 8:48 AM, JoeMo said:

LHC,

I found the video fascinating.  Those are indeed difficult verses to understand the way the commentator presented them.  However, if one reads those verses in context  with the story God is trying to tell, we see that God always gives man a way out.  God/god has rules, but Elohim also shows mercy.  Elohim forgives. Don't know if you can say that about Allaah.

Not only is God willing to forgive but His tomb is empty, something no other pretender to the throne can duplicate.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

On 12/7/2015 at 8:43 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I assume you include in your statement, only those who were taught the "goodness of God" and taught the Law of God. 

17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance....Mark 2

 

I read a news article today, of a man who was apprehended or possibly tried and found guilty of the murder of 48 different people, not enmass but one at a time at different times The horrifying part of that scenario is that every human being since Adam bears the seeds from which that activity can come from. When any of us enter the Kingdom of heaven, it is the result of Jesus' shed blood, shed for the sins of those who enter in.

 

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me....2 Corinthians 12

 

The person who wrote that, under the moving of the Holy Spirit, was the apostle Paul, guilty of the blood of possibly hundreds of followers of Christ.

 

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin....James 4

 

We may not be sinners from the womb, however we come from the womb with sinful natures.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

 

Me:A second is that under Christianity, human beings have value .....

CoAspen:Unless, they believe differently, look different, etc, etc.

Humans have equal value under Darwinism or atheism. 

Way too much time is spent on trying to make one group/ideas/etc as being more 'correct' than an other.

 

You cut out the part where I wrote that the value human beings have is equivalent to the life of the Son of God because He gave His life for them.  Your comment "unless the believe differently, look different, etc., etc." is an interesting one.  I don't know of any Christian groups which would distinguish on the basis of what people look like, but there are Christians who distinguish on the basis of what one believes.  That is, not all Christians believe that Christ died for every human being, but only for those who believe.

Regarding the last sentence, there is a great deal of difference between what Christians and atheists believe, and understanding correct ideas would seem to me to be vitally important and well worth spending time on.

[8thdaypriest]

 

It's NOT just Muslims, who fight violently for possession of "the promised land".  In his book "The Struggle for the Birthright" Stephen Jones points out that Zionists used violence, and even terrorism, against the Palestinian people, in taking back "the land" for the Jewish people.   The LORD made it very clear, thru Jeremiah the prophet, that presence with blessing, in "the land" was conditional, and was based upon obedience with heart submission towards God.  Zionists fought their way into "the land" and sought to regain possession, WITHOUT the requisite submission.  Today some 80% of Jews, in the nation called "Israel", are secular - having no belief. 

I personally do not believe GOD is on either side in that conflict.  The US sided with Israel because (initially) we felt sorry for persecuted Jews.  Then for many years she sided with Israel because it  served her national interests to do so.  More recently, presidents have tried a balancing act.  Terrorism by Jihads has tipped the balance in Israel's favor once again. 

The conflict between Jews and Muslims has reached critical mass, with the acquisition of nuclear weapons.  This WAR will not end until Christ returns.  We know that!  The question concerns how - individually - we Christians relate to those caught up in the war, because of their beliefs. 

Some in the Hebrew Roots or Messianic movements, repeat the admonition to "Bless Israel" and "Pray for Israel".  I cannot personally focus such a prayer on the current nation called "Israel" any more than I could pray for the Palestinians to the exclusion of Jews.  When I pray for "peace in Jerusalem", I'm praying for the return of Jesus, and the final END of all war.  I'm NOT praying that the current nation called "Israel" will "triumph over her enemies". 

"Thy Kingdom come." 

[JoeMo]

Amen, Rachel.  Jesus died for the redemption of all humanity - including Islam.  God loves Muslims as much as He loves Christians and Jews.

I do pray for Jews AND Muslims (and Christians, for that matter) - that God and His Son would reveal Themselves to them in a powerful undeniable way; and that their eyes would be open to "see" it when They do reveal Themselves.

[LifeHiscost]

41 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Rachel.  Jesus died for the redemption of all humanity - including Islam.  God loves Muslims as much as He loves Christians and Jews.

I do pray for Jews AND Muslims (and Christians, for that matter) - that God and His Son would reveal Themselves to them in a powerful undeniable way; and that their eyes would be open to "see" it when They do reveal Themselves.

It is not Muslims that are opposed to so much as the Word.

31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." ....John 8

https://thehornnews.com/horn-exclusive-sharia-violence-in-the-heartland/

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

There is also something worse than being against certain foreign principle.

18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.…. Revelation 22

God is Love!~Jesus saves!