Are Christ and the Father identical in all ways?

[Wingnut]

To kick off this discussion, I would like to ask the question, which of the two is referred to in the OT as the LORD God?

The word "LORD" is Strong's H3068 and is transliterated "Jehovah" from the Hebrew letters YHWH.  Some prefer Yahweh to Jehovah.

So who is Jehovah, Christ or the Father?

Gen 3

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Combine it with...

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

and....

John 6:46

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So Jehovah God was speaking with Adam and Eve, and they could see Him.

Thus Christ is Jehovah.

But so is the Father.

The Bible uses the word YHWH God to differentiate Christ and the Father from the other "gods" or spirit beings.  All spirit beings are "elohim" or "gods" but only Christ and the Father are YHWH elohim.  They are the everlasting Gods as opposed to the created spirit beings.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only the Father is YHWH.  Putting Gen 3:13 together with John 6:46 disproves this.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Wingnut,

The following distinguishes between Yahweh who is God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Son of God.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Genesis 3:13 (KJV): And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
I believe that this is not God the Father speaking directly with Eve, but an angel who represents God.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Wingnut]

5 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Wingnut,

The following distinguishes between Yahweh who is God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Son of God.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Genesis 3:13 (KJV): And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
I believe that this is not God the Father speaking directly with Eve, but an angel who represents God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor

Great to meet you on this forum.  

That scripture you gave in Ps 110:1 is a good one for proving that God the Father is YHWH or Jehovah.

But Christ is too, as I showed in Gen3:13 since Jehovah throughout the OT is the one interacting with the men of faith.  One cannot say that in all these cases it was an angel and not Christ.  The word "angel" means messenger.  And when an angel accompanied Israel out of Egypt, in all probability that angel was Christ.  Christ is described as being the Messenger of God.  

Whenever a messenger/angel/Christ spoke to men of old, they were doing it on behalf of the Father

 

[8thdaypriest]

There is a study on my website titled "The Mediator - Christ through the Old Testament".  Here's the link:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-The%20Mediator.pdf

[Wingnut]

Christ is the Lamb of God. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Christ goes where the Father sends Him, even to death, meekly like a lamb.

Christ follows orders (from the Father).

The Father gives orders.  The Father has never had to follow an order, ever, since He is the ultimate authority in the universe.

The Father has never learned obedience.  Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

The Father has never directly experienced sin, as Christ did when he clothed Himself with flesh and dwelt among us.

 

A Being who is used to giving orders differs from a being used to following orders.  The Father boasts about Christ's ability to follow His orders, in 

Isaiah 42

42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

[Scuba]

In the Old Testament  we have the Angel of the Lord  or the Angel of His presence as the  mediator  between God and man To me. the angel of the Lord is the pre incarnate Word  before it was made flesh . In Exodus 23:20-22 we read that the Angel of the Lord has the Father"s name in Him so many times in the Scriptures you'll find Jesus having same name and title as the Father.

[pnattmbtc]

What is the character of the Father?  The character of the Father is that which has been revealed by the Son.  In John 13, when His disciples were arguing about which was the greatest, Jesus thought about how He could represent the character of the Father, and took a towel to gird Himself and wash their feet.

The kingdom of heaven is about service.  The greatest in the kingdom of heaven is the greatest server.  Who is the greatest server?  It is God!  God the Father is the greatest server there is, and it was Christ's job to reveal Him for who He was (and is) and Christ did that as described in Phil. 2, by being obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  This is the character of the Father.

It's important we get this right, because by beholding we become changed.

[Wingnut]

4 hours ago, Scuba said:

In the Old Testament  we have the Angel of the Lord  or the Angel of His presence as the  mediator  between God and man To me. the angel of the Lord is the pre incarnate Word  before it was made flesh . In Exodus 23:20-22 we read that the Angel of the Lord has the Father"s name in Him so many times in the Scriptures you'll find Jesus having same name and title as the Father.

Well put.

 

1 Corinthians 10:4

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[JoeMo]

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? ( Heb. 1: 1-5)

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth." (Prov. 8:22-25)

Jesus is absolutely different from the Father.  If they were absolutely identical, there would be no need in scripture to distinguish between them.  The Father is the Father.  The son is the image of the Father.  The Father existed forever, Jesus was "begotten" or "brought forth".  Sure, it was before the creation of the earth; but any reasonable person must admit that being "begotten" or "brough forth" implies a beginning of some sort.  Yes; Jesus (and the being who became Jesus) is God and worthy of our worship; but He is NOT identical to the Father.

[pnattmbtc]

They are same in terms of character.

[Wingnut]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? ( Heb. 1: 1-5)

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth." (Prov. 8:22-25)

Jesus is absolutely different from the Father.  If they were absolutely identical, there would be no need in scripture to distinguish between them.  The Father is the Father.  The son is the image of the Father.  The Father existed forever, Jesus was "begotten" or "brought forth".  Sure, it was before the creation of the earth; but any reasonable person must admit that being "begotten" or "brough forth" implies a beginning of some sort.  Yes; Jesus (and the being who became Jesus) is God and worthy of our worship; but He is NOT identical to the Father.

Hi Joe

I agree with what you say regarding Christ being different to the Father.

But you cannot use Pr 8 to say that Christ was "brought forth".  Solomon is talking about WISDOM in this chapter.  It has no relevance to Christ IMO.

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Hi Joe

I agree with what you say regarding Christ being different to the Father.

But you cannot use Pr 8 to say that Christ was "brought forth".  Solomon is talking about WISDOM in this chapter.  It has no relevance to Christ IMO.

 

I appreciate your opinion on this subject.  I'm sure others agree strongly with you.  IMHO, Proverbs 8 DOES refer to Christ.  But hey; it's just my personal opinion; not a dogma on which our salvation hangs.  How about John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Most reasonable people assume that a Father precedes a Son; and being BEGOTTEN implies a beginning; in contrast with the Father who had no beginning.

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Hi Joe

I agree with what you say regarding Christ being different to the Father.

But you cannot use Pr 8 to say that Christ was "brought forth".  Solomon is talking about WISDOM in this chapter.  It has no relevance to Christ IMO.

 

CHRIST IS THE WISDOM OF GOD

1 Corinthians 1:24 "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (NKJ)

1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- (NKJ)

Paul was always referencing the OT.  That's where Paul got the concept that Jesus was wisdom.  He recognized Christ speaking, in Proverbs 8. 

[8thdaypriest]

Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting." (NKJ)

The words translated "goings forth" mean origin, as translated in the CJB.

CJB  Micah 5:1 "But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the clans of Y'hudah, out of you will come forth to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose origins are far in the past, back in ancient times."

  The Father did not originate.  The Son originated FROM His Father.  Why call Him a "son" if He was NOT.  Was God trying to confuse us?  Or did the One who became Jesus, simply take the ROLE of a Son, WHEN He incarnated.  That would seem to be the SDA view. 

Jesus said, "I came forth from the Father  and  have come into the world." (Joh 16:28 NKJ)

 

[8thdaypriest]

NKJ  Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

An "express image" is a COPY.  It's NOT the original.  The Father is the original.  Christ the Son - is the COPY. 

And there is ONLY ONE "Majesty on high".  That's the Father. 

[Wingnut]

Can anyone explain the Melchizedek reference.  Christ is compared or even said to be him ...

 

Hebrews 7:3

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Can anyone explain the Melchizedek reference.  Christ is compared or even said to be him ...

 

Hebrews 7:3

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The verse is not about biology.  It is about ancestry. 

Melchizedek was an individual priest, appointed by God.  He was not a priest because He was born into that role, through ancestry.  My understanding is that the priestly ancestry of Melchizedek was not written down in the registry of all Israelite males from the priestly line, at the Temple of Jerusalem.    Jesus would be a "priest" because God appointed Him to that role, NOT because He was born of the Aaronic/Levite line. 

My understanding is that all of redeemed Israel will become a "nation of priests" - NOT of the Aaronic line, but of the Melchizedek - because God will appoint us to that role. 

[pnattmbtc]

Didn't Christ create time?

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said:

Didn't Christ create time?

I can prove there is time in heaven.

Revelation 8:1

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

[pnattmbtc]

I think He created heaven too.

[Wingnut]

In the spirit realm there has to be something very similar to our time.

For a Creator to make anything, there has to be a "before" and "after" state.  There also have to be cause and effect.

And every reference to the spirit realm has things happening in time exactly like on earth.  See Rev and Ezek when we are shown heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

Wouldn't the spirit realm exist in space time as well?  So what would have happened, it seems to me is:

1.Christ created space-time.

2.He created other things.

[Wingnut]

9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Wouldn't the spirit realm exist in space time as well?  So what would have happened, it seems to me is:

1.Christ created space-time.

2.He created other things.

We could not imagine anything outside our 4 dimensions of space-time.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, that's the problem.  So I'm not sure it makes sense to discuss something happening involving Christ before space-time was created.

[Scuba]

16 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Hi Joe

I agree with what you say regarding Christ being different to the Father.

But you cannot use Pr 8 to say that Christ was "brought forth".  Solomon is talking about WISDOM in this chapter.  It has no relevance to Christ IMO.

 

Before the Word became flesh it was the wisdom and power of God being manifested in a tangible way without the weakness of flesh. When the wisdom and power of God became a man it continued to be the wisdom and power of God but now with human limitations.

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The Word, which was with the Father, became man and was seen, heard and handled by other men.

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

This is one of the greatest mysteries of our faith and is very hard to grasp with such finite minds as ours.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

This is why I believe the common denominator for fellowship should not be in understanding the eternal Divine nature of God, but rather, a simple declaration of Christ being the Son of the living God. In this we are blessed. Anything after that and the waters get muddy.

Matthew 16:15-17 Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.