SUFFERING

[8thdaypriest]

From my observation, worldwide constant SUFFERING is perhaps the greatest reason why believers become un-believers.  I have been thoughtfully considering this subject for some time now.  I think I was pushed towards this because I myself suffer chronic pain, in the form of very frequent migraines.  I have seen miracles - several of them - during my life so far, and I couldn't figure out why the LORD wouldn't heal me. 

I'm left with the nagging question --- Did it really HAVE to be THIS BAD?

I'm reading through Richard Rice's book, "Suffering and the Search for Meaning".  He really does a good job, summarizing the different views. 

My husband was born in Germany.  The story of his parents highlights the problem of suffering.  His parents were engaged when his father was drafted into the German navy at 18 years old.  It was the height of WWII.  One month out on a German destroyer, and it was captured by a Russian sub.  He spent 4 years in a Russian prison camp, often tortured, and came back home weighing 80 pounds, and bald at 22.  He had also decided that there IS NO GOD, because, if there IS, then HE is a monster for allowing this!!!  He was abusive as a husband, and as a father to his three boys.  He ultimately committed suicide at 72.  Of course he was suffering from untreated PTSD.  There was no treatment back then. 

My mother-in-law didn't fair any better.  Her biological father was killed in a Brown Shirt riot, and her mother abandoned her to the state.  She was often abused in foster care.  At 16, she was working at a troupe hospital rear the railway.  While walking back to the state owned farm where she lived, she was raped and knifed and left for dead at 16.  But she never gave up her belief in God.  She remained a believer, and attended church well into her 70's.   I never got to visit with her enough to know whether she was just "buying fire insurance" or really believed in the goodness of God.  

I believe that God feels our pain.  "In all their affliction, He was afflicted."  Therefore my response is to believe that God would NOT have ALLOWED this horrible mess, if it was not absolutely necessary.  It's just difficult for me, when my head is pounding, to think, "THIS is necessary." 

 

[8thdaypriest]

No replies.  Guess no one wants to think about suffering at this time of year. 

My question is:  How do we EXPLAIN all the suffering, to those who are not believers? 

[8thdaypriest]

When the disciples asked, "Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind", Jesus answered "neither".  So suffering is not always the result of sin? 

I believe the FLOOD of Noah's day brought about great changes in the atmosphere, the soil and in the amount of radiation from the sun (without the firmament as it was originally created). These changes resulted in rapid aging, terrible weather patterns, floods, droughts, etc. etc. etc.  They resulted in gradual genetic changes, which have resulted in heritable disorders.  Also eating animal flesh brought disease.  

So the flood was the SOURCE of a great deal of suffering....

WHY would God allow the FLOOD?  I don't believe HE directly caused it. 

Someday, I believe we will learn that God almost LOST the war.  He came within a hair's breadth of loosing humanity entirely.  The ONLY way to save any humanity, was to wipe out all but a family of 8, and start over. 

[Geoarrge]

Theologically it's easy enough to explain. The world that we currently have is the result of Satan's governance, not God's, and as nice as it would be personally to be relieved of suffering, it would also risk concealing the fact of how terribly mismanaged everything is right now, and the need to put an end to it. 
 

That's not necessarily a satisfactory explanation on the personal level, though.   No quantity of words written in books can substitute for action.  If someone feels like God is refusing to help with something that is genuinely needed, the loss of hope is inevitable. 

[BigMark]

We like to blame many (not all) sufferings on sin, our parents, genetics, etc. But the reality is: we cause most of our own problems by the way we eat, think, act, handle stress and hydrate. Almost no one wants to accept responsibility for their disease, but in fact most of the times it's our own fault. Now some of the external influences mentioned by 8thdaypriest are pretty horrific, but with God's grace we can overcome. I believe that if we give ourselves totally to Jesus, he can give us the strength to overcome physically as well as mentally. 

[doug yowell]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 11:17 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that God feels our pain.  "In all their affliction, He was afflicted."  Therefore my response is to believe that God would NOT have ALLOWED this horrible mess, if it was not absolutely necessary.

I am convinced that that is the bottom line. If we are,indeed, Christ's, then what can happen to us without His permission? And, as the prophet once reminded us, in eternal retrospect we would have it no other way. And if God Himself suffers from the effects of sin on His creation, why should I be exempted? 

[teresaq]

I rarely come here anymore 8thday so wasn't aware of this. That was pretty bad what your in-laws and millions upon millions more have suffered. Or suffered far worse.

I suggest, 8d, that you might reconsider whether it is pain, or whether we have learned to go to God like the hymn says, that cause us to become unbelievers. Knowing about God is nowhere near the same as going to God coupled with entire submission to Him. Nothing may ever change but after learning to go to God, to talk to Him, while giving oneself entirely to Him we become like Jesus in not wanting that connection to ever be severed, no matter what the reason. That was the worst pain Jesus felt, losing that connection with God, next to the pain He felt in suffering what each of us suffer in this painful world.

My experience is that it is far easier to know about God than it is to actually know Him. Once we can make that shift, as slight as it might be, and as long as it may take to become deeper, and habititual, there is nothing that would cause us to become unbelievers.

(Listening to those old hymns made me curious to know what those writers got from God that would cause them to write such words. They had to be getting something. Well, I'm finally discovering it through the 12 step program and bible promises.)

1 What a friend we have in Jesus,
all our sins and griefs to bear!
What a privilege to carry
everything to God in prayer!
O what peace we often forfeit,
O what needless pain we bear,
all because we do not carry
everything to God in prayer!

2 Have we trials and temptations?
Is there trouble anywhere?
We should never be discouraged;
take it to the Lord in prayer!
Can we find a friend so faithful
who will all our sorrows share?
Jesus knows our every weakness;
take it to the Lord in prayer!

3 Are we weak and heavy laden,
cumbered with a load of care?
Precious Savior, still our refuge--
take it to the Lord in prayer!
Do your friends despise, forsake you?
Take it to the Lord in prayer!
In his arms he'll take and shield you;
you wilt find a solace there.

[Aliensanctuary]

People do err when blaming God for misfortune, rather than Satan. Satan, when tempting Adam and Eve, was the First Cause of Evil on this planet. While Evil evolved and spread like wildfire, Godliness all but disappeared, since disobedience is so much easier than obedience. As Christ indicated, God, our Master and Owner, is away on a long journey, leaving others to tend his vineyard. Despite the prevalence of evil, we can choose to be the Master's faithful servants and journey on the less-traveled road, or, we can choose to be wicked servants and take the superhighway to hell.

If we blame God for the evils of this world, then we are servants of Satan, the accuser. We, or others, may suffer, even as professed followers of Christ, but we shouldn't expect magical healing or protection in this life. In this life we are being tested, just as Christ was tested in the wilderness. Even though evil surrounded him and affected his life, he blamed no one but Satan. 

No matter what our circumstances are, in health or in sickness, rich or poor, with loved ones or alone, free or in prison, we can still serve the LORD, knowing that there is a better life ahead for those who follow his Son.

[LifeHiscost]

6 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

disobedience is so much easier than obedience.

.

This is a misnomer when it is applied as a natural order of the Kingdom of God. We, as a fallen people, fall into the temptation to believe as Eve did when she was tempted to take the devil's word instead of trusting God's character.

…5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate....Genesis 3

God is Love! 

⁴ Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.

⁵ It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].

⁶ It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.

⁷ Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].

⁸ Love never fails......1 Corinthians 13

…28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."...Matthew 11

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Most have been telling me to draw near to Christ, and keep a stiff upper lip.  Not necessary.  I was asking how best to help a non-believer, who is suffering, so that person might come to know Christ.  I agree with the fellow who said just to listen, and help where you can, with immediate needs.  THAT IS the strongest "testimony" you can give, for that moment.  The person may become "open" to other types of testimony at a later time.   

So that covers the non-believer.  What about the fellow believer? 

Personal suffering - whether emotional or physical IS A TRIAL OF OUR FAITH.  It is!!   It has helped me, to realize that the LORD feels my pain - with me.  Just knowing that my Heavenly Father feels my pain, helps me to BELIEVE that all the suffering was necessary to the eventual victory and healing, and eternal security.  I don't have to understand WHY it was necessary.  The explanation can come later - in the Kingdom.  But that's me - a believer. 

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, BigMark said:

We like to blame many (not all) sufferings on sin, our parents, genetics, etc. But the reality is: we cause most of our own problems by the way we eat, think, act, handle stress and hydrate. Almost no one wants to accept responsibility for their disease, but in fact most of the times it's our own fault.

You sound like Job's two friends.  That sort of comment does NOT HELP someone in pain!!  That comment might be applied to people living in the developed West, but certainly NOT to those living in third world countries, or in war zones. 

I inherited migraines from my father AND my mother.  I was BORN WITH a deformity of my skull and cervical vertebra called Chiari Malformation. (My C2 and C3 have degenerative changes.)   I worked 40 years as an RN and CRNA, and now have arthritis in both feet.  (I never wore high heels.)  How was ANY of this my own fault? 

The young girls who were kidnapped by radical Muslims and sold into sex slavery - how was this THEIR FAULT?  Those who labored as slaves during 200 years of history in the US - how was this THEIR FAULT?

Millions and millions have died as collateral damage to war, famine, plague, natural disasters, ruthless dictators, ignorance, selfishness, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.  I personally see them as collateral damage of the war between Christ and Satan.  They did not consent to being born into a war zone, on a dying planet.   So I would disagree.  MOST of the suffering in this world is NOT "our own fault". 

[Gerr]

I have thought about this along with a related subject (Has God promised more than He could deliver?} over the years.  Here are some thoughts:

1)  The human condition and all the promises of God are book-ended or framed by two Biblical truths, (a) God's original creation was very good, Gen 1.  As a result of sin, that paradise was lost. The ground was cursed, pain and death became the human experience, Gen 3.  (b) Someday, that paradise will be restored where there will be no more pain, crying, or death.  No matter how healthily you will still die.  And how we die is not specified.  It could by accident, old age, or a slow painful cancer death.  

2)  Another piece of that frame is the law of cause and effect.  Defy the law of gravity by jumping off a tall building and the result is pretty certain, 100 prayers not withstanding. Eat foods that interfere with circulation and the result could a stroke, or a heart attack or something else.  In my line of work, my observation is that many if not most human ailments/suffering are self-inflicted.

3) Innocent bystander/collateral damage.  Being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

4) Refining aspect of hardships/trials/suffering.  Not popular concept, but the Bible presents this nonetheless.

5) We are caught between two warring supernatural forces.  If you choose God's side, Jesus guaranteed that you will have tribulation.

6) Hebrews 11:39-40 guarantees that all the promises of God cannot/will not be realized in this life.

7) Nothing can happen to the believer without God's permission, so in the meantime I just have to trust my God.

[8thdaypriest]

WHY do people refuse to believe God exists, or reject belief in God?  That's assuming they have encountered some evidence for His existence, or heard some testimony from a believer. 

1.  They want to do something which God has forbidden.  It's easier to keep doing what is forbidden, IF you don't believe HE exists. 

2.  They were taught from childhood that there is no God, or were convinced by college professors that "science" is irrefutable, and confirms evolution. 

3.  A Christian (so called) acted in a manner which caused one terrible pain, either emotional or physical. 

4.  They witnessed horrendous suffering - of "innocent" people, after hearing of God's love and His omnipotence.   

5.  They were worn down by chronic pain, after hearing all those Bible promises of comfort and healing. 

If we understand WHAT turns people away, we may be able to amend our own behavior, or our preaching, so as to "save some". 

[Geoarrge]

Why? Because in the end, God is either there, or He isn't. And if He's expected to be involved and isn't, what can any of us do about it, except learn to rely more on ourselves and each other?  If that's the lesson to be learned, then so be it. 

[doug yowell]

6 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

I have thought about this along with a related subject (Has God promised more than He could deliver?} over the years.    

.

AS I recall you have had "good reason" to ponder these things. Thank you for a well reasoned Biblical approach (what are the Divine options?) and important contribution. PTL

[doug yowell]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Nothing happens to anyone, unless God has given "permission," and if "we are Christ's" has nothing to do with it. Saying this means that God does not have control over things unless we are "good."

True, nothing is left to happen chance as most atheists must believe, but being in Christ gives permission to God to intervene over the extent to which evil is allowed to effect His believing family (perhaps "permission" is not the best term to use?). This is illustrated many, many times (do we need to go there to give evidence of it?) throughout Scripture both in the OT and the NT. But that "control" is greatly affected by who one chooses to obey. So while God still intervenes in the affairs of all the earth much of it is still given over to Satan to run as he chooses. Yes, evil affects everyone regardless of how "good" they are as was illustrated most clearly by Jesus own life. It is the extent of that evil that God is directly accountable for and the promise that "nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." It is the idea that evil has a free run and God does not, or cannot, or will not do anything about it on our behalf that is the biggest problem among believers. I don't think we are in disagreement. I thought Gerry had many really good observations above. 

[8thdaypriest]

I think the whole flood story is one of God's interference to protect those committed to Him, in the midst of chaos which ensues because the world rejects God. 

God is the source of "life" and "order".  Without God's input of divine energy, every becomes chaotic. 

Everything slows down, runs down, and breaks down.  (Second Law of Thermodynamics)  The scientists say that our whole universe will eventually cease to exist.  They are looking at things as they appear now.  They are not taking into consideration the input of divine creative energy to restore order on the earth, and in our dimension/universe.

Here are two verses that - to me - tell us the WHY, concerning the flood.  I don't believe that God actually slammed the asteroid into the earth, causing the flood.  But I do believe that God pulled back His spirit - the input of divine energy, and the heavenly bodies began to loose their ordered synchronized paths.  Which allowed an asteroid to plow into earth.  

 Genesis 6:5  “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” 

    Job 21:14 [Speaking of those who lived just prior to the Flood of Noah] “Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways” (KJV).

Job 22:17 “They said to God, ‘Leave us alone! What can the Almighty do to us?’” (NIV)   

    God set everything in balance, and then held everything in balance.  When the people of earth told the LORD “Depart from us!”, the LORD honored their wish. He withdrew His Spirit from this physical dimension except for a boat with eight people aboard (and a whole lot of animals).  Entropy set in.  Everything began to go out of balance. 

Noah and his family emerged to find the world completely altered.  Before the flood the crystalline firmament protected them from damaging rays, but from that day forward those rays would “age” them much more rapidly.  Those rays coupled with poor nutrition, and consumption of animal foods, weaked their immune systems, shortened their lives and caused mutations of their DNA.  Starving animals became carnivorous.  Scavengers multiplied.  

    The earth has continued on towards sure and certain “death” since the flood of Noah’s day.  And the LORD allowed all of this.  King David wrote, “The days of our lives are seventy years; and if by reason of strength they are eighty years, yet their boast is only labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off”(Psa 90:10).

 

[LifeHiscost]

      The earth has continued on

towards sure and certain “death”

since the flood of Noah’s day.  And the LORD

allowed

all of this.   [/quote] And for the believing disciple a most enduring promise.

 

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;…Romans 8

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[teresaq]

On 12/15/2015 at 11:17 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

From my observation, worldwide constant SUFFERING is perhaps the greatest reason why believers become un-believers.  ...

 

It appears you may not remember this comment, to which I responded below.  In rereading your comments it looks like you're jumping all over the place....

I also don't think its right to slanderously gossip about people who aren't here to defend themselves. If you want to know about various unbelievers and the why, I would suggest you do what God tells us to, and did/does, get to know them on a personal basis. Since I do get to know people on a personal basis and have found out the whys I'm not so disposed to engage in this type of  discussion.

 

Whatever.

Ya me voy!

I'm not interested in holier than thou non conversations!

Quote

I rarely come here anymore 8thday so wasn't aware of this. That was pretty bad what your in-laws and millions upon millions more have suffered. Or suffered far worse.

I suggest, 8d, that you might reconsider whether it is pain, or whether we have learned to go to God like the hymn says, that cause us to become unbelievers. Knowing about God is nowhere near the same as going to God coupled with entire submission to Him. Nothing may ever change but after learning to go to God, to talk to Him, while giving oneself entirely to Him we become like Jesus in not wanting that connection to ever be severed, no matter what the reason. That was the worst pain Jesus felt, losing that connection with God, next to the pain He felt in suffering what each of us suffer in this painful world.

My experience is that it is far easier to know about God than it is to actually know Him. Once we can make that shift, as slight as it might be, and as long as it may take to become deeper, and habititual, there is nothing that would cause us to become unbelievers.

(Listening to those old hymns made me curious to know what those writers got from God that would cause them to write such words. They had to be getting something. Well, I'm finally discovering it through the 12 step program and bible promises.)

1 What a friend we have in Jesus,
all our sins and griefs to bear!
What a privilege to carry
everything to God in prayer!
O what peace we often forfeit,
O what needless pain we bear,
all because we do not carry
everything to God in prayer!

2 Have we trials and temptations?
Is there trouble anywhere?
We should never be discouraged;
take it to the Lord in prayer!
Can we find a friend so faithful
who will all our sorrows share?
Jesus knows our every weakness;
take it to the Lord in prayer!

3 Are we weak and heavy laden,
cumbered with a load of care?
Precious Savior, still our refuge--
take it to the Lord in prayer!
Do your friends despise, forsake you?
Take it to the Lord in prayer!
In his arms he'll take and shield you;
you wilt find a solace there.

 

[JoeMo]

In one of EGW's books, she asks "Why Is There Sin".  If I remember it correctly, I believe her conclusion was that there is NO reason (excuse) for sin.  Man chose sin for no logical reason whatsoever except self engrandizement.  I believe there is pain, sickness, and suffering in the world because of:

1. Who is the current ruler of the air (satan); and he LOVES to see humans suffer!

2. Man's inhumanity to man.  God kinda self-limits Himself here; He gave man a free will; and when men by there free will choose to do evi, there will be collateral damage.

I have no answer for why God allows evil and suffering to continue; but I also have evry faith that He will bring it to an abrupt end sometime soon; just like He ended suffering every place He went when He was here the first time.  But He did promise us that suffering and persecution would come; and that the sun shimes an rain pours on both the good and the evil.

My heart and prayers go out to you who are suffering physical or emotional pain - especially this time of year.  I pray that God either grant you healing from your pain or grant you the sustaining faith the praise Him in spite of your pain as your witness to the world.

[teresaq]

While I still feel the same, I came on too strong and do apologize to all for that part of my last comment. Or at least for the unChristlike feelings I had.

[Aliensanctuary]

While the world must endure suffering in this life, among those chosen to join the Kingdom, all of those memories will be deleted. That would be the end of suffering. For those sent to the flaming pit, the story may be unpleasantly different.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

While the world must endure suffering in this life, among those chosen to join the Kingdom, all of those memories will be deleted. That would be the end of suffering. For those sent to the flaming pit, the story may be unpleasantly different.

I disagree.  I do NOT believe that God will delete our memories.  Just like I remember the pain of surgery, I don't still FEEL it.  All of us have been abused and wounded - to some degree - by others.  It will take many, many years in a safe environment to HEAL all of the defensive thinking and responses, which have resulted from what we have SUFFERED.  Why else would it take 1000 years? 

[8thdaypriest]

My mother and father in-law, have been dead for many years.  My husband does NOT mind my telling their stories.  I used them as examples of how individuals respond differently to suffering. 

I personally have NOT abandoned my belief in God's love.  I DO believe that He can, and does, and will, bring about healing, in spite of the chaos which sin has brought.  What I'm saying is that suffering seems to me a primary reason WHY many folks STOP believing in a loving God - OR - refuse to believe at all.  I'm looking for ways to reach those who have suffered, (or observed suffering) and have either LOST SIGHT of God's love, or CANNOT BELIEVE in a God of love, BECAUSE OF the suffering. 

[Stan]

This is really the big question in life.   Thank you for starting it.