SUFFERING

[phkrause]

Yes I agree a very good topic. I just happened to be reading an article in Signs about this very thing. Thought I'd share it:

https://www.hopechannel.com/read/the-reason-for-sing-and-suffering

[Kevin H]

The best answer is in reading both chapters "Why was sin permitted" and "The Origen of Evil" from the books Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, along with the chapter "It is Finished" in Desire of Ages. (I wish that our church would make a little booklet with those 3 chapters, maybe with a fourth chapter on Gethsemane in Desire of Ages).

The term Milk and Honey were ancient geographic terms. Honey or preserved foods indicated an agricultural life style. A permanent home. plenty of food (you make the "honey" out of the left over food after you ate) enough money to make an upper class of landowners and a lower working class. This causes leisure time, A life that is predictable, easy and exciting.

Milk came from mostly goats, kept out in the desert, moving around looking for food. Not knowing if you will be eating from your garden or plow it under and try again next year. Moving from place to place. Living out in the desert. A life unpredictable, hard and lonely.

Now in the land of honey you risk loosing site on your need for God and also that is where the invading armies pass through. The question is not "will disaster come" but "When will it come" While in the land of milk you are always dependent of God and you are safe from the invading armies.

The pagans try to appease the gods of honey to bless them and the gods of milk to leave them alone. The God of the Bible claims to be the God of Milk and Honey. A God of the predictable, easy and exciting times but also of the unpredictable, hard and lonely times. God is with us despite having to allow evil to play out. He knows our pains and fears. He offers healing.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote

^{Rev 21:4} ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

^{Is 65:7} “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

 

This is where the idea comes from that most of our old memories, some of which are very painful, are deleted. With evil purged from the universe, there would be no need to dig through the evils of the past and re-live them. The memories of having helped others may be kept to some degree, maybe just as a vague feeling of having done something good which was rewarded by the Father. Reviewing the wrongs of the past may very well increase the likelihood of resurrecting the forces of evil.

If someone wishes to blame God for evil and suffering, they should instead blame Satan, along with Adam and Eve. All of the evil acts of men that cause suffering and sorrow and war, and the diseases that afflict mankind, can all be traced to that first act of disobedience and loss of protection from evil. God didn't cause evil, but someday he will eradicate it and cause it to be remembered no more.

We might suppose that God could suddenly stop bad things from happening to people, but this life is more of a trial-by-fire test. We may have to experience the worst evil can offer, but if we trust in God, we will be safe in the end. When children or their mothers or fathers die, it is tragic, but someday the pain will be forgotten.

Recall that this life is the tiniest of blips on the timeline of eternity.

[8thdaypriest]

My father had chronic migraines and chronic depression.  (It's a long story, with an abusive father, and the loss of three fingers on his right hand when he was 12.)  Back then, there WERE no SSRI's or anything else really, to treat or prevent.  He self-medicated with alcohol.  The alcohol - over time, took hold, and he could not free himself. 

My father had moved to Mexico after his license was taken here in the US, for too many DUI.  I had not seen him in several years.  About six months before he died, he sent a letter asking me to record some of the hymns I used to sing for church.  I shamefully admit that I never got around to it.  Anyway.  Three months before he died, I was absolutely, overwhelmingly convicted to pray for my father, and to "fight for him".  So - twice a day - I would pray for him, begging the LORD to create a bubble of protection around him, because I was quite convinced that the demons were holding him fast.  I "commanded" in the name of Jesus - as we do in spiritual "warfare". 

After three months of this, I asked the LORD to give me a clue as to what was happening.  My brother called at 4AM the next morning.  "Well, Dad's gone,"  was all he said.  "There's more to it,"  I said.  "Oh, you'll love this," he replied.  "Dad was at a minister's house.  They were having Bible studies (sarcastically).  Dad suddenly grabbed his chest, and keeled off the chair." 

I asked my brother for the minister's phone number.  I called later and talked with him.  He told me that Dad had indeed been coming to Bible studies. 

My brother (especially) and my sister too, have never been able to forgive Dad, for the pain he caused us.  (They are NOT believers.)   My Dad was not mean or abusive - just neglectful. 

I HAVE been able to forgive him - gladly.  I think largely because I understand the pain of chronic migraines.  I believe that I will see my Dad someday - in the Kingdom.  The LORD allowed me to participate in the victory - for my Dad. 

I am VERY AWARE that "There but for the grace of God, go I".  I write this as an example of HOW we can help someone who is suffering. 

[teresaq]

On 12/22/2015 at 9:47 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

.....  What I'm saying is that suffering seems to me a primary reason WHY many folks STOP believing in a loving God - OR - refuse to believe at all.  I'm looking for ways to reach those who have suffered, (or observed suffering) and have either LOST SIGHT of God's love, or CANNOT BELIEVE in a God of love, BECAUSE OF the suffering. 

And I'm saying, the church can keep on running around in circles and discussing it, or, get out there and get to know people on an individual basis and, as advocated by 12 step principles, the bible and EGW, share our personal experience. As I posted before, all the talk about God doesn't teach people to go to God and "taste Him". I appreciate the COG people and their efforts, I really do, but there came a point when I realized I wasn't any better off than before.

It was the old-time hymns that made me want what they have. It was accounts like H.M.S of Ellen White praying. All of that has led me to seek God and what they have. Church never did. It seems the church is great on talking about what we should do and sharing opinions, but God took matters in His own hand and led me to what I needed.

I suspect He is doing the same for millions all over the world. Talking to God trumps (now don't that have a new, sucky, meaning now!) talking about Him any day. Talking to Him and to people teaches me how to reach those in pain.

Quote

After about thirty minutes, Willie White came up behind her and said, "Now, Mother, we've got a long journey ahead." That was their first stop from California, you see. "You've got meeting, after meeting, after meeting—doz ens of towns and long journeys, and we don't want you to overdo and get tired." She replied, "I don't want to stop yet. I haven't prayed yet; I want to pray first." So she talked for about three minutes more and then knelt down on the plat form and began to pray. Her first words were, "Oh, my Father." She didn't say "Our Father"; it was "my Father." Within two minutes there was a mighty power that came over that whole place— a great power. I was afraid to look up for fear I'd see that God was standing right there. She was talking to Him. She'd forgotten all about us. She only prayed about five or six minutes at the most, but as she prayed there were sobs all over that audience—people weeping over their sins. She wasn't even looking at them. She was down on her knees with her eyes closed while praying, and Heaven came down and touched the earth, and God honored her as His prophet.

 

[teresaq]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Talking about God can be just as good as talking to Him. It is sometimes, a form of prayer to do so, much like tears, or angry cries of pain can be sometimes. Nothing is to be discounted, if its what a person who is suffering needs at the time. Jesus reads the unspoken cry of the heart, in every case.

I am saying that all the talk about God never did me much good other than sound good. And it was/is appreciated. It wasn't until I started talking to God, not just in prayer which I do all the time, but talk to Him when I'm angry, hurt, take the hate and disgust I'm feeling and talk to Him about it....that it trumps all the talking about Him. I never learned that in church. What I learned from church is play nicey-nice, act like everything is alright, even to God. Like He don't know the anger and disgust I'm feeling towards something! Nor did I ever learn to play nicey-nice as I find that, and the people who play it, disgusting.

It is an experience tho, not something that can be explained.

[teresaq]

Oh yeah! For sure! No way I could have talked to God with the cold, distant, unfeeling and on and on portrait of Him given by so many...all the while saying "God is love". Well who the hey needed that kind of love! Not me! I remember one time trying to talk to Him but the picture that came to mind was of statues, that I was talking to statues.  In anger in my minds eye I knocked them over to shatter them with some wording I am sure. And that experience happened after He had been chipping away at the pic I had been handed.

I guess that is why all the talking about God never led me to actually talk to Him about what was going on in my heart. Perhaps there are those who said we could but they didn't really exemplify it by sharing their own experience. I'm saying we need to 12 step and share our own experience, strength and hope of what we ourselves have experienced with God.

Those hymns and EGW's prayer as HMS Richards remembers it also destroys bad images of God. But they go farther and deeper in giving me a hunger all the talk never gave me. I want that! I want that bad!  I was getting tired of hearing about God and I finally realized it was because it left me just as empty as before.

The bad news is, I don't always remember those experiences so I don't always hunger as I would like. But on occasion a particular hymn or bible promise or text pops up and I hunger after God again. LOL

But again, I still get something from talking about God, but I don't get God Himself. I guess that's part of what I'm saying.

[teresaq]

On 12/19/2015 at 11:02 AM, The Wanderer said:

I have found that it is mostly better to not "explain" suffering to people. Whats more important is how each individual is perceiving the suffering, and how best we can meet them where they are at. But we tend to like our "explaining" and our "lists" a lot more, maybe because that is easier. The thing that helps me the most with the chronic pain I have, is just having people in my life who won't try to change me with their "explaining," but will just help where the help is needed.I find that most of the "explaining" people send my way is meaningless. For eg, I have one friend who has not tried to "explain" my suffering to me. He just lets me use his work shop when I am able, and while I am making something out of barn wood, or other material, I whine away for a while and he just listens. That kind of thing has helped me far more than all the "explaining" in the world. I dont feel the slightest need for any kind of "explanation" for my suffering after an afternoon like that.

Pretty much!

[Aliensanctuary]

We go to church wearing our smiley faces, but deep down inside many of us are walking wounded, physically and/or emotionally, something that mere church attendance can never cure. It was Christ's one-on-one encounters that changed lives and gave people a new hope in becoming a part of the Kingdom. It was his message of change that contradicted the beliefs of the day, and only by discarding those old beliefs could one truly understand the Kingdom.

 

[LifeHiscost]

7 minutes ago, Aliensanctuary said:

We go to church wearing our smiley faces, but deep down inside many of us are walking wounded, physically and/or emotionally, something that mere church attendance can never cure. It was Christ's one-on-one encounters that changed lives and gave people a new hope in becoming a part of the Kingdom. It was his message of change that contradicted the beliefs of the day, and only by discarding those old beliefs could one truly understand the Kingdom.

 

Why do you think this advice below is given?

…24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,…Hebrews10

I would like to reflect on the fact I see numerous places where the underlined above is part of my experience, both in the body of Christ and in the secular world in general. All the more important when we see this as a good portion of our world today.

   1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

      10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.....2 Timothy 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!      Keep looking up!

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, teresaq said:

I am saying that all the talk about God never did me much good other than sound good. And it was/is appreciated. It wasn't until I started talking to God, not just in prayer which I do all the time, but talk to Him when I'm angry, hurt, take the hate and disgust I'm feeling and talk to Him about it....that it trumps all the talking about Him. I never learned that in church. What I learned from church is play nicey-nice, act like everything is alright, even to God. Like He don't know the anger and disgust I'm feeling towards something! Nor did I ever learn to play nicey-nice as I find that, and the people who play it, disgusting.

It is an experience tho, not something that can be explained.

If each person at "church" unloaded all the emotion from their hearts to everyone they came into contact with, I fear there would be serious overload.  It would hinder the smooth running of the service, and the "learning experience".  We have social customs for a reason.  They CAN seem very constraining, or useless, when one is really suffering, but they do serve a purpose.  Unloading personal struggles and emotions is best done in a small group, or one-to-one with a friend or counselor.  The forum can SEEM like a small group, in the way we share things. 

I DO AGREE that one should be honest with God, and talk to him in a REAL way.  I remember - many years ago - sitting in my car literally yelling at the LORD.  I was angry and confused.  I read the promises that HE would put HIS spirit within me, and cause me to walk in His statutes and to keep HIS Law.  I read the promises of healing.  Well then - why was I still sinning?????  And why had I NOT been healed???? 

God did not give up on me, or reject me - not in the least!!  He loves that kind of REAL communication.  What I came to realize, was that I was getting in His way.  I kept TRYING - in my own efforts, to "stop sinning".  What I had to do was to give up - to realize that I could have no part in overcoming EXCEPT to pray and believe.

As for healing - well - that may not come in this life.  I believe it's a test of my faith.  But He WILL give me the strength to endure - to hold on to faith.  And as I said before - if I had not inherited my father's migraines, I may not have been able to understand him, so that I could readily forgive him. 

As for talking ABOUT God - wow!! - without all of the wonderful commentaries, and without the Bible itself (which talks ABOUT God), I would not have come to understand much about Him.  I "met" Jesus, on a sidewalk in Wichita Falls, Texas, one afternoon back in 1980, but that "meeting" - that experience - did not tell me much ABOUT Him.  For that I had to read - a LOT. 

I agree, that sermons do NOT help much, when I have a migraine.  I can't even stand to listen to music.  I just want the pain to STOP.  When a person is suffering great emotional pain, such as a divorce, or the death of a loved one, a sermon is NOT of much help.  At those times, just the presence of a friend - especially one who has felt what we are feeling - THAT is greatly helpful. 

[JoeMo]

Some great stuff here.  Teresaq had a great post about a friend who just "listened" rather than try to explain away or "solve" her pain.  That's good advice for us who find it necessary to solve their issues.  A lot of the time, sympathy and a good ear can bring more relief than theology.

AS made a good point about "pretending" to be blessed when we were at church when we were actually miserable.  While I agree with Rachel that it's not prudent to share one's issues with everyone, it is nice to have a few brothers and sisters in an inner circle (small group) to share with.  I use this forum al ot to share, probably because there is some security (false though it may be) in anonymity. 

I loved how Rachel honestly shared above.

[teresaq]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If each person at "church" unloaded all the emotion from their hearts to everyone they came into contact with, I fear there would be serious overload.

Nobody said that. I'm really curious as to why you read it?

Since you  brought it up I will address it. My heart is always open to listen to those in pain. If we all did there would be no "serious overload".  I'll listen anytime, anywhere. If any person can't deal with my pain or that of someone else, back off and get out of the way!

"It would hinder...."

Yeah right! It would hinder tradition, the way we do things, the way we aren't supposed to do them anyway! After all the first century church had no services such as we do now!

Once people's pain was listened to and addressed then there would be a more productive gathering, which was never supposed to be about one person pouring themselves into others.

[teresaq]

JoeMo, a correction. It was Wanderer who shared about just listening. I agree as you do.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, teresaq said:

Nobody said that. I'm really curious as to why you read it?

Since you  brought it up I will address it. My heart is always open to listen to those in pain. If we all did there would be no "serious overload".  I'll listen anytime, anywhere. If any person can't deal with my pain or that of someone else, back off and get out of the way!

"It would hinder...."

Yeah right! It would hinder tradition, the way we do things, the way we aren't supposed to do them anyway! After all the first century church had no services such as we do now!

Once people's pain was listened to and addressed then there would be a more productive gathering, which was never supposed to be about one person pouring themselves into others.

You seem very, very, angry.  I'm sorry that you're in pain. 

[CoAspen]

We hear what we want to hear...I didn't read anything as angry, just forthcoming. Much presumption...maybe?

[teresaq]

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If each person at "church" unloaded all the emotion from their hearts to everyone they came into contact with, I fear there would be serious overload.  It would hinder the smooth running of the service, and the "learning experience".  We have social customs for a reason. 

5 hours ago, teresaq said:

Nobody said that. I'm really curious as to why you read it?

Since you  brought it up I will address it. My heart is always open to listen to those in pain. If we all did there would be no "serious overload".  I'll listen anytime, anywhere. If any person can't deal with my pain or that of someone else, back off and get out of the way!

"It would hinder...."

Yeah right! It would hinder tradition, the way we do things, the way we aren't supposed to do them anyway! After all the first century church had no services such as we do now!

Once people's pain was listened to and addressed then there would be a more productive gathering, which was never supposed to be about one person pouring themselves into others.

 

23 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You seem very, very, angry.  I'm sorry that you're in pain. 

Really?  That is the typical way to dismiss what another says and put them down. 

Well. I'm sorry this thread wasn't really about finding ways to help unbelievers who suffer, but really about you. Cause see if we don't want people sharing their pain in "church" because it would "hinder" the traditions and customs which seem to be more important to you than people,

If we don't want to hear "our own" then we don't really want to hear about unbelievers, now do we?  No. This thread had another agenda altogether.

smh

[teresaq]

And you and I need to stop now,  8thdaypriest. Now.

[JoeMo]

teresaq brought up an interesting point.  How DO you explain "why is there suffering" to a non-believer?  If I were a non-believer and one of the "saints" told me that maybe Jesus was trying to get my attention, I might tend to doubt the goodness of a god who used torture to "get my attention".  I'll go back to Wanderer's advice - lend a sympathetic ear; and maybe a hug; maybe cry together.  I would consider that more of a blessing than a sermon on Job.

At any rate, today is Christmas; and my prayer for all of you is freedom from pain, suffering, and grief - at least for today.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, teresaq said:

And you and I need to stop now,  8thdaypriest. Now.

I started this thread.  Anyone who does not feel they can gain anything from it, can certainly stop reading it, or posting to it.  That's the freedom of the forum. 

I really want to understand WHY our Heavenly Father, and our Savior Jesus have ALLOWED sooooooo much pain.  I have some ideas - yes - but there must be other insights.  I want to understand what is helpful to someone who is suffering (believer or unbeliever) and what is NOT. 

Thanks to everyone who has posted.  Blessings. Rachel

[teresaq]

On 12/23/2015 at 10:01 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

My father had chronic migraines and chronic depression.  (It's a long story, with an abusive father, and the loss of three fingers on his right hand when he was 12.)  Back then, there WERE no SSRI's or anything else really, to treat or prevent.  He self-medicated with alcohol.  The alcohol - over time, took hold, and he could not free himself. 

My father had moved to Mexico after his license was taken here in the US, for too many DUI.  I had not seen him in several years.  About six months before he died, he sent a letter asking me to record some of the hymns I used to sing for church.  I shamefully admit that I never got around to it.  Anyway.  Three months before he died, I was absolutely, overwhelmingly convicted to pray for my father, and to "fight for him".  So - twice a day - I would pray for him, begging the LORD to create a bubble of protection around him, because I was quite convinced that the demons were holding him fast.  I "commanded" in the name of Jesus - as we do in spiritual "warfare". 

After three months of this, I asked the LORD to give me a clue as to what was happening.  My brother called at 4AM the next morning.  "Well, Dad's gone,"  was all he said.  "There's more to it,"  I said.  "Oh, you'll love this," he replied.  "Dad was at a minister's house.  They were having Bible studies (sarcastically).  Dad suddenly grabbed his chest, and keeled off the chair." 

I asked my brother for the minister's phone number.  I called later and talked with him.  He told me that Dad had indeed been coming to Bible studies. 

My brother (especially) and my sister too, have never been able to forgive Dad, for the pain he caused us.  (They are NOT believers.)   My Dad was not mean or abusive - just neglectful. 

I HAVE been able to forgive him - gladly.  I think largely because I understand the pain of chronic migraines.  I believe that I will see my Dad someday - in the Kingdom.  The LORD allowed me to participate in the victory - for my Dad. 

I am VERY AWARE that "There but for the grace of God, go I".  I write this as an example of HOW we can help someone who is suffering. 

I am so very curious as to what exactly you saw here as helping "someone who is suffering" cause I missed it somehow. If its because you prayed, yes, I think that is a great way to  help. Someone gave him bible studies? What did you see as an example? How do you feel it helped his/her/their heart hurt. I'm totally lost here.

I'm glad to see that YOU were able to forgive your pops, but I see a lot of heart hurt in your sibs, unbelievers you state. Do they count? Cause my heart hurts for them. You didn't mention any example of a good way to reach them. I would suggest just listening and empathizing. Do you think your thoughts about yourself and them could just drive them further from the God Who wants so desperately to comfort them?  Or would those thoughts warm their hearts to hear how good you are and unforgiving they are?

So what? What was a good example? Of helping whom?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote

 am so very curious as to what exactly you saw here as helping "someone who is suffering" cause I missed it somehow. If its because you prayed, yes, I think that is a great way to  help. Someone gave him bible studies? What did you see as an example? How do you feel it helped his/her/their heart hurt. I'm totally lost here.

I'm glad to see that YOU were able to forgive your pops, but I see a lot of heart hurt in your sibs, unbelievers you state. Do they count? Cause my heart hurts for them. You didn't mention any example of a good way to reach them. I would suggest just listening and empathizing. Do you think your thoughts about yourself and them could just drive them further from the God Who wants so desperately to comfort them?  Or would those thoughts warm their hearts to hear how good you are and unforgiving they are?

So what? What was a good example? Of helping whom?

the questions addressed above to Rachel come across as insincere, and the whole post as somewhat mean-spirited...  And on Christmas Day, too.  Shameful to see such on C/A...

 

[8thdaypriest]

Why did the LORD allow sooooooo much pain ?  Was it somehow because of His law? 

Eve was deceived, and ate the fruit.  Adam was not deceived, but could not bear to be without Eve.  And the LORD allowed His great enemy to take over dominion of the entire earth.  Had not Satan already rebelled against the LORD.  What made him legally able to take over?? 

Why would the LORD allow Satan (the greatest rebel) to take dominion FROM Adam - because of Adam's rebellion?

[Geoarrge]

If you're trying to reach individuals, help them find what they're missing. They probably need something real and tangible.  No amount of theology can make up for that.

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 12/23/2015 at 2:21 AM, Aliensanctuary said:

.

Recall that this life is the tiniest of blips on the timeline of eternity.

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

² For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

³ Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good

or some of us, that day will be with a lot less of the troubles that will happen to those who live right up to the close of time.....2 Timothy 3

Our continued safety will be found the same way as Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael gained theirs'..

 

¹⁶ Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

¹⁷ If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

¹⁸ But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.....

²⁵ He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

²⁶ Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

²⁷ And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them......Daniel 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!