SUFFERING

[teresaq]

On 12/23/2015 at 10:01 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I write this as an example of HOW we can help someone who is suffering. 

I'm still curious. Helped who? How?

I'm still at the same loss as to who was helped and how?

How do you think your suffering unbelieving sibs could be helped?

 

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My brother (especially) and my sister too, have never been able to forgive Dad, for the pain he caused us.  (They are NOT believers.)  My Dad was not mean or abusive - just neglectful. 

Neglectful is a form of abuse.

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I HAVE been able to forgive him - gladly. 

The man I knew as dad used to grab me and hang me over cliffs, beat me, kicked me out at the age of 12, blah, blah and on and on. Course it didn't stop there as I grew and went through other homes.

I try to understand and have forgiven him, still working on my mom,  but I would NEVER say I forgive and my sibs haven't (they're unbelievers also). Why on earth would I do that? No. My heart breaks for them and the pain they've suffered at not being wanted. At being also ejected in favor of a more attractive family.

Perhaps that is why my heart hurts for your sibs.

So I ask again. Do they count as to how to reach...., considering this question by you:

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  I'm looking for ways to reach those who have suffered, (or observed suffering) and have either LOST SIGHT of God's love, or CANNOT BELIEVE in a God of love, BECAUSE OF the suffering. 

 

[LifeHiscost]

Amidst suffering there is more room to appreciate this. I may have to put it on more than one page.

John Woodrow Cox - The Washington Post - Friday, December 25, 2015

Something was wrong.
Cynthia Decker always liked to talk at the gym, and now, as she sluggishly pedaled atop stationary bike No. 88, she wasn’t talking at all.
Her personal trainer, Toni Badinger, asked why.
“I have to go on dialysis,” Decker told her. “I’m so scared.”
Decker began to cry.
She had arrived at Brambleton Sport&Health in Northern Virginia two months earlier after spotting an advertisement. For $99, the fitness center offered three sessions with a personal trainer — help Decker desperately needed as diabetes and two failing kidneys ravaged her health.
But one trainer called off their appointment, and then another. On the day Decker intended to ask for a refund, her phone rang.
“Hi,” the woman on the line said. “My name is Toni.”
Badinger, a new trainer at the Ashburn gym, secured her third client.
She took notes during Decker’s initial session.
Next to a question about high blood pressure, she circled: “YES.” Next to one about diabetes, she added: “type 1.” Next to a request for information about chronic illnesses,

she wrote: “kidney disease — on transplant list.”
At that first meeting, Decker couldn’t do a single squat or curl more than three pounds, but Badinger understood how important their work together would be. For Decker to remain on the transplant list, she had to stay healthy enough.
It helped that the women liked each other from the start. Both were 53 and sarcastic, mothers to two kids and wives to men they’d loved for three decades. They also shared a firm belief that, at the worst times, nothing mattered more than faith.
Still, the pair remained little more than acquaintances who spent one or two hours a week together.
And that’s why a few days after the dialysis began and Decker was again pedaling atop bike No. 88, she didn’t register the meaning of a question her personal trainer posed.
“So,” Badinger asked, “what blood type are you?”
‘Are you nuts?’
Badinger was sitting on a bar stool in her Ashburn kitchen a week later when her husband, Barry, walked in. On the laptop screen in front of her was an 11-page questionnaire from MedStar Georgetown University Hospital.
“What are you working on?” he asked.
She was being tested, Badinger explained, to find out whether she could donate her kidney to a client.
“Are you nuts?” he demanded. “Who is this woman?”
Decker had been no less stunned when Badinger, after learning their blood types were both O positive, revealed her intentions.
“Who would do this?” Decker thought. “She’s not my sister. She’s not my aunt.”
A possible match with a relative had fallen through for reasons Decker never understood, but she suspected the woman had changed her mind. The experience was devastating, so she urged Badinger not to be hasty.
“It’s not like I’m asking for a pair of shoes,” she reminded her trainer. “I can’t give this back.”

“No,” Badinger eventually responded, “you’re just asking for my left shoe.”
Barry didn’t accept that.
His wife would be risking her own life, first with the surgery, then by gambling that nothing would go wrong with her remaining kidney. How could she consider doing that for someone she barely knew?
She didn’t know, for instance, that Decker had come to the United States from Bolivia at age 4. That after Decker’s kidneys began failing two years ago, the illness forced her to quit a job working with autistic students at a time when she and her husband, Mike, were deeply underwater on their mortgage. That she’d lost the ability to taste food and needed reading glasses to give herself insulin shots four times a day because her eyesight had rapidly degenerated. That after Decker collapsed into a cavernous depression, a psychologist told her she must stay active, even when her body was so devoid of energy she had to lie down after taking showers. That she had tried antidepressants but gave up when they made her feel worse. That if she hadn’t started dialysis in June, a doctor concluded, she would have been dead in a month.
But what Badinger didn’t know didn’t matter to her, nor did it matter that both her husband and mother adamantly opposed the idea of donating her organ.
A devout Christian, Badinger had prayed for guidance again and again, and she was certain God’s answer hadn’t changed: Keep going.
Barry knew his wife would be hard to dissuade. She had grown up in a tough North Dakota town where temperatures routinely dip to 15 below, she’d earned a black belt in karate at age 45, and she could still bench press her body weight of 125 pounds. She didn’t quit.
Still, he argued, what if something went wrong?
“I don’t want to lose you,” he told her over and over. “You’re my best friend.”
Barry, a thickset construction manager with a shaved head, refused to discuss it in the weeks that followed, even on the night of his birthday in early August, one day after she had driven to Georgetown to turn in a jug of urine and have blood drawn.
Meanwhile, each time she met with the medical staff — the doctors, a social worker, a

donor liaison — they reminded her she could opt out at any moment and that Decker would be told Badinger couldn’t donate for medical reasons.
At Georgetown, more than four in every five people who initially express interest withdraw before surgery.
A few days after going to the hospital, her phone rang.
“You’re a match,” the voice said.
She hung up and patted her beating chest. “This is real,” she thought.
She texted Decker and told Barry later that day.
“This woman,” he said again, “is a stranger.”
At the fitness center the next morning, trainer and client returned to bike No. 88. This time both women cried, a combination of relief that Badinger was a match and angst that her husband still disapproved.
Hidden under Decker’s long sleeves was a left arm ravaged by the 12 hours of her weekly dialysis treatments. The longer people remain on the regimen, she knew, the less capable their bodies are of accepting an organ.
And now Decker was so close to a new life she feared could slip away at any moment.
“I don’t want to have to choose,” Badinger told her, “between my husband and you.”
That night, she and Barry shared a quiet, awkward dinner. They picked at their fish and said nothing about the test. Afterward, he started putting leftovers in the fridge. Then, suddenly, he turned around and clapped his hands.
“Okay,” he said. “If we’re going to do this thing, I’ve got some questions for the doctors.”
Three months later, and three days before the surgery, he finally met the woman taking a piece of his wife. At an Italian restaurant in Ashburn, Barry reached across the table to shake Decker’s hand. He stopped.
“I need a hug,” he said, and walked around to embrace her.
Decker’s husband still struggled to find the right words for Badinger’s gift.
“I’ve tried and tried, and I can’t,” Mike said. “It’s life-giving, literally.”

And Barry, at last, explained what had changed his mind.
“It became a lot easier to accept,” he said, pointing at Mike, “when I put myself in his shoes.”
‘You all right?’
It was just past 5:20 a.m. on December’s “Giving Tuesday” when Badinger approached a receptionist at Georgetown hospital.
“I’m here for surgery,” she said, and soon Barry and their 24-year-old daughter, Aly, joined her in a quiet second-floor waiting room.
It had been a long night. She’d woken up at 1 a.m. and posted a message to Facebook, thanking her friends for their support. She had worked through a quick series of exercises with a foam roller on the floor. She had knelt and asked God to be with her.
And now Badinger was thumbing a smooth black stone her pastor at Christian Fellowship Church had given out during a sermon about casting one’s cares on the Lord. Congregants were supposed to return the rocks in a symbolic gesture, but she’d kept hers.
Badinger wondered aloud if she was doing the right thing.
“You are,” Barry assured, and rubbed her shoulder.
Decker and her husband arrived moments later, and the women embraced.
Decker couldn’t speak.
“You all right?” Badinger asked.
She nodded.
“What’s going on?”
“I don’t know how to thank you.”
A day earlier, Decker had spent four hours hooked to a machine she hoped was cleaning her blood for the last time. The other patients — almost all gaunt and gray haired — offered congratulations, speaking to her as if she were a fellow prisoner who had just been pardoned.
Receiving organs from near-strangers is rare but not unheard of, said Matthew Cooper,

Georgetown’s director of kidney and pancreas transplantation. Many people still believe matches are scarce and must usually come from a family member, but that’s not true.
Advances in immunosuppression drugs have vastly expanded the pool of potential kidneys. Recipients’ bodies seldom reject organs, even when they aren’t ideal matches.
But such progress hasn’t triggered a horde of new donors.
“For every person who gets a kidney transplant,” Cooper said, “another 20 die while on the waiting list.”
Only one in 10 people who stay on dialysis, he explained, live more than a decade beyond when they started the treatment. Nationwide, around 100,000 patients a year need kidney transplants, but only about 15,000 receive one. And fewer than half of those come from living donors, whose organs last an average of nearly 20 years — close to double those harvested from people who have died.
At the hospital, in a pre-operative holding area, Decker lay in bed No. 9. A nurse asked how she knew Badinger, who was in bed No. 10.
“She’s my personal trainer,” Decker said.
“Oh, wow,” the nurse responded, eyebrows raised.
“Everyone has the same reaction.”
An anesthesiologist asked Badinger to confirm which kidney was to be removed.
“Left side,” she said, then smiled. “Left shoe.”
Around 9 a.m., she was wheeled into operating room 8, and her body was layered in sterile sheets of blue paper, leaving only her stomach exposed. Surgeon Jennifer Verbesey made the first incision, then Badinger’s abdomen was filled with carbon dioxide, providing her two doctors enough room to cut out the organ laparoscopically.
The operation progressed without flaw, but as Verbesey readied to remove the kidney, she had to stop. There was a problem.
Earlier that morning, Decker’s blood sugar was tested at 390 — a reading so dangerously high that one nurse thought the meter had malfunctioned.
It took more than four hours for the medical staff to stabilize her, but at last, by noon, she was ready for her surgery, allowing Verbesey to finish Badinger’s operation 

“Okay,” the doctor said at 12:39 p.m. “I’m taking the kidney out.”
She removed her gloved hand from an air-sealed port mounted to Badinger’s abdomen, and there, in her fingers, was a shiny, beige organ about the size of an avocado.
She gently carried it to a metal bowl filled with crushed ice.
“It’s a beauty,” said Cooper, who flushed out the remaining blood and trimmed off bits of tissue. He then placed a blue towel over the sweating bowl, cradled it against his chest and took a half -dozen steps across a dim hallway into operating room 6, where Decker’s operation had already begun.
“Kidney!” he announced, as Alison Krauss’s “Stay” flowed through the speakers.
“Where have you been,” the song played, “my long lost friend?”
Two other surgeons were prepping the organ’s new home, just above Decker’s waistline.
Their plan was, in principle, simple: Attach Decker’s bladder along with a vein and an artery to the kidney’s corresponding ports, bypassing her ineffective kidneys entirely.
Badinger’s graying organ was soon placed into Decker, but clamps on her vein and artery — preventing blood flow — remained on as the surgeons worked.
Ten, then 20 minutes passed. Verbesey came in to say that Badinger was recovering well.
Another 15 minutes ticked by.
“Every operation has a critical point,” Verbesey whispered as she watched. “The critical point here is when they take the clamps off.”
Then, at 2:19 p.m., they did.
The organ pulsed with blood, turning as pink as an azalea.In seconds, drops of urine appeared.
Decker’s new kidney was already working.
‘I just wanted it to work’
The doorbell rang on a mid-December afternoon. 
Decker leaned forward and slowly pushed herself up from the dining room table. She grinned. Her guest had arrived.
It had been more than a week since the women last saw each other at the hospital. The day after their operations, a nurse had wheeled Badinger to Decker’s room.
In matching white medical gowns, they gripped each other’s hands, the green “Donor” and pink “Recipient” bracelets on their respective wrists nearly touching.
Decker announced she would no longer need dialysis, drawing a gentle high five from Badinger. Their voices quavered.
“We shouldn’t cry,” Decker said. “It’s a happy thing.”
“I just wanted it to work,” Badinger said. “That was my greatest fear.”
“That it wouldn’t work?” Decker asked.
“That it wouldn’t work,” Badinger acknowledged.
Decker’s tone quieted: “It did.”
And now Badinger sat at the dining room table in Decker’s townhouse, and she no longer needed to take anyone’s word that the transplant worked. She could see it.
When they hugged, Decker’s hair was still damp from a shower that hadn’t forced her to lie down afterward. When she smiled, her eyes no longer hid behind swollen skin caused by her previously high blood pressure. When she mentioned returning to the gym after the holidays, she talked of riding faster on bike No. 88. When she bit into a treat Badinger’s daughter had baked, she gasped.
“I can taste the brownie,” she said.
“What does it taste like?” Aly asked.
“Like a brownie,” Decker said. “Like it used to.”
And when Decker opened the Christmas gift Badinger had brought — a tree ornament of ruby-red “Wizard of Oz” slippers — she didn’t need glasses to read “Cynthia” written on the right shoe, and “Toni,” of course, written on the left.  

Another self sacrificing, suffering child of God who puts my own complaining to shame.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!     

[Wingnut]

Why do men suffer?

One cannot blame it on Satan.  Even things which Satan is allowed to do are with permission of God.  God is responsible for the good and the bad.  

And its not man’s fallen nature which is responsible for the problems either.  God created the thorns and cursed the land.  And animals have been eating each other since the Cambrian.  Diseases have probably been killing off the weak since pre-history.

We can cause some of our own problems through stupidity.  The movie “Jackass” comes to mind.

God makes no claim to fairness either.  All men are not created equal.  Some are born talented and beautiful, and others not so lucky.

Time and chance happen to all.  Turns out God does play dice.

And God is not opposed to suffering.  Why would He send His Son to die an agonising death if God’s priority was to have no suffering in the world?

And nothing is predestined either as the Calvinists wrongly believe.  So fate cannot be blamed either.

If God had created a perfect world where it was impossible to need anything, then why would anyone need God?

God’s priority is to give people life and freedom to choose.  Try designing a world where mortals have freedom of choice and no chance of hurting themselves.  The world would look like a padded cell, with a person in a strait-jacket.  Instead, God created a world with sharp edges, hot and cold, poisons, stinging plants and animals, edges one can fall off, rocks which can fall and crush us.

People are like fish to God.  If one dies, He has more.  God created an excess of humans, knowing that many would reject him.  For God, it’s a game of odds.

For those who do choose Him, the rules change.  They become HIS fish.  Only now do they gain intrinsic value.  He promises to watch over them.  This does not mean that time and chance are suspended.  Bad things can still happen to good people.  The worst that can happen is death, and God has power over this even, to resurrect his saints.

It is a requirement of believers to develop faith.  This means not falling apart and losing faith when bad things happen to them.  For all eternity, God will send us places we might have second thoughts about going.  That is why faith is a prerequisite to eternal life.  We will not balk at His command, but go with trust in his watching over us.

One other thing.  Parasites, deep water, broken glass, fire, poison,  God created a world with sharp edges. We mostly manage to negotiate our way around these.  And in the process we learn the meaning of the word "No". "No don't touch, go there, drink that,..."

Which is why "law" is such a big word in the Bible.

Beings with free will have to learn to say "No" to themselves.

If parents don't teach it.... then prison will.

If prison doesn't teach it, then nature will when one takes an overdose. Either way, you will learn to deny yourself. And God created the world to teach us “No”.

Where did God ever promise a perfect world?  Show me the place in the book of rules.  But we do live in an extremely benevolent world where 99% of the time we are neither hungry nor in pain.  The people born in the worst places are generally the last to complain too.  When the smallest misfortune comes upon us we cry “Why me Lord?”.  In the 99% good times we never question “Why me Lord” when He blesses us.

This is not to trivialise any person’s suffering.

This is a beautiful world and we do not deserve one bit of good that we get.  Every thing that brings pleasure is God’s grace.  And for those who have trials, God promises His people that they will never be tempted above what they are able to bear.  God will reduce the trial, or strengthen His believer, one or the other.  For the uncalled, they take their chances, and God owes them nothing.

Yet God’s ultimate goal is to create us needy.  Only then will we come to Him for help.  Later He will give us a perfect world where all tears will be wiped away.

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Hey Wingnut,

I don't know whether or not to like your post.  I disagree with you where you say "we can't blame it on satan".  I would agree with "we can't blame it all on satan".  I DO agree that God is ultimately responsible for it.  I think He freely admits that throughout His Word.  Yes; He gives satan permission to torment us.  He gives me permission to torment you and your family.  That doesn't mean I need to do so.

I also believe that He sent His Son to pay our eternal price for our sin and suffering.  Because God has allowed pain and suffering to come into the world, He has also given us an exit ramp from sin and suffering through His Son.  Without Jesus' sacrifice, none of us would have any chance to escape the evil in this world except through the eternal oblivion of death.  God allowed the Jews to crucify Jesus - Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified.  He could have stopped it instantly if He wanted to.  The Jews didn't kill Jesus; He voluntarily gave up His life.  He is God!  He only suffered and died because He allowed Himself to do so.  Just because God allows something doesn't mean He made it happen.

When I look at Job's life, I don't view it as God testing Job.  satan tested Job - with God's permission.  God - who knows everything past, present, and future, knew Job could withstand satan's onslaught; and was bragging on him - daring satan to show Him otherwise.  God won that bet; and Job was restored and then some.  I have no idea why God would do that.  In the end, Job never found out why, either.  God basically told Job it was none of his business.  I'm not saying it is or isn't our business; but could God's answer to Job be the universal answer for all of us?  I confess, "none of your business" is NOT a satisfying answer to why God allows suffering..

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Hey Wingnut,

I don't know whether or not to like your post.  I disagree with you where you say "we can't blame it on satan".  I would agree with "we can't blame it all on satan".  I DO agree that God is ultimately responsible for it.  I think He freely admits that throughout His Word.  Yes; He gives satan permission to torment us.  He gives me permission to torment you and your family.  That doesn't mean I need to do so.

I also believe that He sent His Son to pay our eternal price for our sin and suffering.  Because God has allowed pain and suffering to come into the world, He has also given us an exit ramp from sin and suffering through His Son.  Without Jesus' sacrifice, none of us would have any chance to escape the evil in this world except through the eternal oblivion of death.  God allowed the Jews to crucify Jesus - Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified.  He could have stopped it instantly if He wanted to.  The Jews didn't kill Jesus; He voluntarily gave up His life.  He is God!  He only suffered and died because He allowed Himself to do so.  Just because God allows something doesn't mean He made it happen.

When I look at Job's life, I don't view it as God testing Job.  satan tested Job - with God's permission.  God - who knows everything past, present, and future, knew Job could withstand satan's onslaught; and was bragging on him - daring satan to show Him otherwise.  God won that bet; and Job was restored and then some.  I have no idea why God would do that.  In the end, Job never found out why, either.  God basically told Job it was none of his business.  I'm not saying it is or isn't our business; but could God's answer to Job be the universal answer for all of us?  I confess, "none of your business" is NOT a satisfying answer to why God allows suffering..

My take on Job is this...

 

Job lived a blessed life and EXPECTED that good things happen to good folks.  In Deut 28 (which had not been written yet - but the principle was known) it was taken as obvious that good happened to the good, and evil happened to the evil. This idea was in the disciples when they asked who had sinned wrt the blind man.

 

God was showing through Job that it is NOT to be assumed that when one sees someone suffering, one automatically thinks they have sinned.  Christ exemplifies this through His crucifixion.

 

Also we should NEVER assume that God OWES us a perfect existence, as Job did.  God owes us nothing except the wages of sin which is death (and associated suffering).  Many moan about God when they see suffering almost blaming Him, when 99.9% of their lives are lovely and blessed, especially in the West.  But look at nature where every wild animal's life is a struggle.  This is what nature should teach us.

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, teresaq said:

I'm still curious. Helped who? How?

I'm still at the same loss as to who was helped and how?

How do you think your suffering unbelieving sibs could be helped?

 

Neglectful is a form of abuse.

The man I knew as dad used to grab me and hang me over cliffs, beat me, kicked me out at the age of 12, blah, blah and on and on. Course it didn't stop there as I grew and went through other homes.

I try to understand and have forgiven him, still working on my mom,  but I would NEVER say I forgive and my sibs haven't (they're unbelievers also). Why on earth would I do that? No. My heart breaks for them and the pain they've suffered at not being wanted. At being also ejected in favor of a more attractive family.

Perhaps that is why my heart hurts for your sibs.

So I ask again. Do they count as to how to reach...., considering this question by you:

 

I can pray for my sibs, but I cannot do much else.  My sister (a physician) tried to convince me that I have a "mental problem", because I believe in a "Santa in the sky", and because I have a website with Bible studies.  My brother doesn't even speak to me.  I get a birthday card from his wife, once a year.   My brother was high up in law enforcement when he retired.  My sibs are NOT people you can "talk with". 

When I came to believe - at age 30 - I did NOT push it on my sibs.  Not at all.  ('Cause I remembered how much I hated "religion".)   But I'm sure they heard about it from my Mom (the only other believer).  She's now gone.   She lived with my sister for 12 years, acting as nanny to her 3 kids.  When the kids got older, she shipped Mom off to me.  My sister told her - in no uncertain terms - NEVER to pray in front of her grand-kids, NEVER to speak to them about Jesus or the Bible, etc. etc.  How my sweet Mom endured it - I don't know.  Only with prayer, and 'cause she loved her grand-kids. 

From what you describe, you suffered serious abuse.  Mine was MILD by comparison. 

[8thdaypriest]

The LORD forbade the Children of Israel to punish the child for the sins of the father.  I think that's somewhere in Ezekiel.  Can't remember right this minute. 

But in Exodus He said that He WOULD do this.  "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation" (Exo 34:7, Num. 14:18 NKJ)

So HE would do what He had forbidden them to do.  I know that one is immediate vindictive punishment, and the other is consequence (whether natural and earthly, or caused by Satan).   STILL -  the LORD is punishing (by whatever means). 

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The LORD forbade the Children of Israel to punish the child for the sins of the father.  I think that's somewhere in Ezekiel.  Can't remember right this minute. 

But in Exodus He said that He WOULD do this.  "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation" (Exo 34:7, Num. 14:18 NKJ)

So HE would do what He had forbidden them to do.  I know that one is immediate vindictive punishment, and the other is consequence (whether natural and earthly, or caused by Satan).   STILL -  the LORD is punishing (by whatever means). 

God places generational blessings and cursing on lines of people who obey or disobey Him.

But in executing human justice one is not allowed to punish the children for the crimes of their parents under OT law.  

 

In the first place, God is demonstrating His power to bless or curse, and pronounce a prophecy and bring it to pass.  This is part of His glory.  By blessing the likes of Ab, we learn about God and how it pays to obey Him.  God did this in the OT with physical blessings.  This does not seem to pertain to Christians where not physical, but spiritual blessings are promised.  The OT was written for our learning since we cannot see spiritual blessings.

For humans, we have no glory, and it would simply be an injustice to punish the innocent.

[Gail]

Rachel, I am sorry that you have debilitating headaches. I also suffer from chronic migraines, although in the last few weeks I have had some respite. I know what it means to camp out by the toilet and not move because even the slightest head movement brings on another wave of pain. I have taken many sick days from work, even to the point of also using my vacation because I had yet another migraine.

To me it seems (and I think that JoeMo and Kevin have touched on this) that there is a bit of mystery to the "why" to suffering. So far, as I am just still learning, I am impressed that my part is to learn to trust God. I have a feeling that the principle of freedom of choice, not ours but others' and also Satan's, leads us to sorrow quite often. And no doubt my freedom of choice allows me to wound others.

I am thankful, though, that God doesn't waste our suffering but skilfully endows us with patience and endurance through it. We do gain tools to help others through understanding and empathy and sometimes with wisdom from having been there.

I just do not have the answer. I know suffering causes people to surrender faith in God. Why some people grow in grace during calamity while others shake their fists at God probably is due to many factors. If we luck on to the correct, healing encouragement that connects to where a person is at the moment I praise God for it. I am not sure whether doing/saying the wrong thing is worse than saying nothing. All I know is that in this world everyone gets a turn.

[teresaq]

On 12/23/2015 at 10:01 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

My sister told her - in no uncertain terms - NEVER to pray in front of her grand-kids, NEVER to speak to them about Jesus or the Bible, etc. etc. 

 

Neglectful is a form of abuse. Sometimes worse than the other forms of abuse.

I'm sorry your dad didn't know how to connect. Mine didn't either. That can and does cause real suffering to others, especially children. Problem is, when other folks knew my childhood sucked I was at a loss as it was normal to me. I didn't know the damage it caused to my psyche, that the good Lord has been working on through the biblical 12 step program. He gets faster results the more diligent I am.

As for religious folks, sometimes we really have no idea how abusive or outrageous we can be. We think we're fine, we think others are fine. We may never cause Jim Jones effects, but we can and do "kill" people with our responses.

"Good" christian folk can be the worse as on the surface they appear good but it is all superficial. There are good Christian folk, but they aren't superficial. They're heaven to be around. Especially for those who've had a lot to deal with, or those who're going through hard times.

It can be difficult to get to the real root of the problem when people are so angry at what has happened, and/or using their anger to prevent more abuse.

There are also angry people like my roomie who is all about herself. She uses manipulation and bullying in an attempt to get what she wants as she appears to view people here to serve her in some manner. She got so bad the last bad time that her daycare insisted on her meds being upped. She hated that so much that she straightened up real quick even before she took the increase. I give her her AM/PM meds so that's how I know.

Since I know your sibs don't have that problem but haven't had the best childhood, yes, only God can help as we humbly pray for our hurting loved ones. I am also thankful that as I surrender to Him opening my heart He is able to speak healing through me. Not me. I don't get any glory at all, ever! I am surprised by what comes out of my mouth if I let Him. He is awesome and deserves all the glory! 

[teresaq]

Sucky god you serve Wingnut. I'll pass thanks, as I haven't had that experience. LOL My God has been so good to me all my life no matter how bad things were.

[teresaq]

On 12/22/2015 at 5:13 AM, Aliensanctuary said:

While the world must endure suffering in this life, among those chosen to join the Kingdom, all of those memories will be deleted. That would be the end of suffering. For those sent to the flaming pit, the story may be unpleasantly different.

I don't know A...

God said He would wipe away all tears, not memories. I think I understand that. It may be like childbirth, and something equivalent for men. Yeah the pain is pretty bad, but for some reason, at least for many of us, we know the pain was bad but we don't still feel it. I don't anyway. I can't even remember how painful it was as I have 40 years distance. In my case it wasn't as bad as it is for others, but still....

I'm still feeling the results of the accident imposed on me, and will, but in heaven all pain and suffering will be null and void, thrown into that lake of fire never to appear again. I think that is what will happen in heaven. The glories will overshadow what we went through here. But we may still be able to describe to future creation how sick and ugly it was here, the pedophilia, child abuse in all its forms, millions of children on the street worldwide prey to all, while the well-to-do for the most part remain in our comfort zones. (I'm far from well-to-do but could probably do and give more than I do)  We will describe every form of suffering people are enduring down here, and that God's way really is the only way to live and be happy.

I think anyway.

 

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, teresaq said:

Sucky god you serve Wingnut. I'll pass thanks, as I haven't had that experience. LOL My God has been so good to me all my life no matter how bad things were.

You did not quote anything I said, so what exactly did you disagree with?

And God has been very good to me too.

[teresaq]

Which one of your statements regarding your beliefs about god didn't make him look at the least uncaring, but even worse, vicious and satanic?

I mean, if your beliefs about the god are true there is either no need to believe Satan exists or Satan really is the kind, loving, god and better to die with him than to be with a creator god who creates thorns and animals to devour each other. And humans likewise.

No thanks. No thanks at all. My God is NOT, I repeat, NOT like that. Least not that I've seen, tho churchies have too often given that impression.

[Wingnut]

32 minutes ago, teresaq said:

Which one of your statements regarding your beliefs about god didn't make him look at the least uncaring, but even worse, vicious and satanic?

I mean, if your beliefs about the god are true there is either no need to believe Satan exists or Satan really is the kind, loving, god and better to die with him than to be with a creator god who creates thorns and animals to devour each other. And humans likewise.

No thanks. No thanks at all. My God is NOT, I repeat, NOT like that. Least not that I've seen, tho churchies have too often given that impression.

So you don't like God creating thorns and placing a curse on Adam, Eve and the ground?

Read it for yourself here.  Who did the cursing?

Gen 3

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

 

[teresaq]

We do remember that the bible is a translation, and from a revived dead language, right? I mean you aren't quoting from the original language with its original meanings.

Now God said the ground would bring forth....but He never said He would make it bring forth...., or that He created thorns. We have to believe that first and then read it into the text.  His statement was that it would happen. And it happened because of Adam (male and female humans) sin.

As for "I will", He also said He killed king Saul, and I don't know how many similar instances where a closer look shows He did no such thing. Unless of course we need to believe that and so we start coming up with arguments to make it so.

Job is an excellent key, for me, to interpreting the "I will" texts by God. First, second, and last chapters. But I'd read the book many times before it popped out at me.

It is amazing how many people can read the bible and see nothing but a God of love, while many more see only a god of hate. What an absolute trip. I know for me it was a god of hate and only as I kept reading over and over and over did truth pop out here and there. But I trip on those who saw a God of love from the get-go.

[Wingnut]

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

We do remember that the bible is a translation, and from a revived dead language, right? I mean you aren't quoting from the original language with its original meanings.

Now it's just a bad translation when it does not agree with your theology?

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

Now God said the ground would bring forth....but He never said He would make it bring forth...., or that He created thorns. We have to believe that first and then read it into the text.  His statement was that it would happen. And it happened because of Adam (male and female humans) sin.

If something happens, like thorns appear, are you saying that Satan created them.

Actually thorns existed since pre-history outside the garden.  So nothing new was created, they were just chased into a much harsher landscape outside the garden.

 

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

As for "I will", He also said He killed king Saul,

Yes, and He did.  He also got she bears to rip apart 30 something insolent youth who disrespected His prophet Elisha.

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

...and I don't know how many similar instances where a closer look shows He did no such thing. Unless of course we need to believe that and so we start coming up with arguments to make it so.

Who says He did no such thing?  Did He kill Uzzah?

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

Job is an excellent key, for me, to interpreting the "I will" texts by God. First, second, and last chapters. But I'd read the book many times before it popped out at me.

I looked at all the "I will" texts in Job, and I think you are seeing things.  Mostly its just Job saying "I will".  About 26 times Job says "I will" and once in Job 38:3 God says it.  What is your point?

53 minutes ago, teresaq said:

It is amazing how many people can read the bible and see nothing but a God of love, while many more see only a god of hate. What an absolute trip. I know for me it was a god of hate and only as I kept reading over and over and over did truth pop out here and there. But I trip on those who saw a God of love from the get-go.

Anyone can create a God who created only butterflies and Bambi, but its just in their mind.  These folks usually say "My God would never..." and then they list the things THEIR God would never do.  Don't fall into that trap.  

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, Wingnut said:

My take on Job is this...

 

Job lived a blessed life and EXPECTED that good things happen to good folks.  In Deut 28 (which had not been written yet - but the principle was known) it was taken as obvious that good happened to the good, and evil happened to the evil. This idea was in the disciples when they asked who had sinned wrt the blind man.

 

God was showing through Job that it is NOT to be assumed that when one sees someone suffering, one automatically thinks they have sinned.  Christ exemplifies this through His crucifixion.

 

Also we should NEVER assume that God OWES us a perfect existence, as Job did.  God owes us nothing except the wages of sin which is death (and associated suffering).  Many moan about God when they see suffering almost blaming Him, when 99.9% of their lives are lovely and blessed, especially in the West.  But look at nature where every wild animal's life is a struggle.  This is what nature should teach us.

Job was a TYPE of Christ.  But the Devil was not allowed to kill Job, as he was allowed to kill Jesus. 

Job was self-righteous.  Over and over, he kept saying that he had been righteous and did not deserve what was happening to him.  If one is self righteous, then he doesn't feel any need of a Savior.  The LORD let Job know that he was NOT righteous.  "There is none good but One.  That is God."   Job repented - "in dust and ashes". 

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, Wingnut said:

So you don't like God creating thorns and placing a curse on Adam, Eve and the ground?

Read it for yourself here.  Who did the cursing?

Gen 3

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

 

There are many, many places in the Bible where the LORD says that He will do something - like destroy Jerusalem, etc. etc.  But when you read on, you find that the destruction happened BECAUSE the LORD withdrew His protection or His blessing, or His spirit.  Personally, I believe the flood of Noah's day happened for such reason.  I don't believe the LORD directly caused the flood.  There are only a few places where the LORD Himself, actually harms someone.  Nadab and Abihu, - the 250 princes, - Korah, Dathan and Abiram.  the Assyrians attacking Jerusalem - and the army of Gog/Magog attacking Jerusalem - Mariam's leprosy.  Yes, there's a few.  Mostly the LORD destroys indirectly, by withdrawing.  

There's a study on this at my website.    http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/10-The%20Wrath%20of%20God.pdf

"His mercy endures forever."  Yes.  But only for those who love and obey Him.  Or maybe it is a merciful thing, that God destroys the wicked. 

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,  In other threads I've said that I do NOT share your view, that life with plants (thorns and thistles) and animals, existed long before the LORD made Adam and Eve in a "garden".  You say that is science, so I must submit to it, but I do not agree with your science.  Many with Phds in chemistry, biology, or astrophysics, do not share your view.  Their number is growing.  

I don't believe that my God had to "learn" by trial and error.  I don't believe He is playing a "game" - as you said.  I believe this world was initially created PERFECT.  Free will - poorly used - has messed it up.   I do NOT want to debate with you concerning your views on creation/evolution.  We are just tooooooo far apart on that issue.  Perhaps the moderators will create a separate CREATION forum, although there are lots of them out there, on the web. 

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Job was a TYPE of Christ.  But the Devil was not allowed to kill Job, as he was allowed to kill Jesus. 

Job was self-righteous.  Over and over, he kept saying that he had been righteous and did not deserve what was happening to him.  If one is self righteous, then he doesn't feel any need of a Savior.  The LORD let Job know that he was NOT righteous.  "There is none good but One.  That is God."   Job repented - "in dust and ashes". 

Job may have been self righteous.  As you said "he kept saying that he had been righteous and did not deserve what was happening to him".

Job kept saying God was wrong in what He was doing to Job.

There was Job's big mistake, to call God WRONG.

God had to point out all the great things He had made, and then asked Job, "Now who do you think is the smartest one in the room?"

Job admitted God was, therefore he (Job) must be the wrong one.

When we suffer, we tend to think that God is wrong.  We pay our tithes, and go to church, and they do not, and they are not suffering, so God somehow is making a big mistake.

 

Since God gets to define right and wrong, turns out, by definition, God can never be wrong.  So never say He is.

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There are many, many places in the Bible where the LORD says that He will do something - like destroy Jerusalem, etc. etc.  But when you read on, you find that the destruction happened BECAUSE the LORD withdrew His protection or His blessing, or His spirit.  Personally, I believe the flood of Noah's day happened for such reason.  I don't believe the LORD directly caused the flood.  There are only a few places where the LORD Himself, actually harms someone.  Nadab and Abihu, - the 250 princes, - Korah, Dathan and Abiram.  the Assyrians attacking Jerusalem - and the army of Gog/Magog attacking Jerusalem - Mariam's leprosy.  Yes, there's a few.  Mostly the LORD destroys indirectly, by withdrawing.  

There's a study on this at my website.    http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/10-The%20Wrath%20of%20God.pdf

"His mercy endures forever."  Yes.  But only for those who love and obey Him.  Or maybe it is a merciful thing, that God destroys the wicked. 

Let's say Frank Nitti is the right hand man for Al Capone.  Capone says to Nitti, "I have a little problem I would like you to take care of".  Who is responsible if they find a corpse in the Hudson River next morning?

You are trying to justify God by buying into the God of butterflies and Bambi only myth, or the Disney God..

[phkrause]

Great posts Teresaq and 8thdaypriest

[Wingnut]

Tyrannosaurus rex, owls, thistles, poison ivy, panda's, cobra's, deer, crocodiles, lions, malaria, ticks, pigs, spiders, flies, tares, marijuana, squirrels, leaches, mold, vampire bats, syphilis.

Please tell me which of these God created, and which Satan made. 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

Tyrannosaurus rex, owls, thistles, poison ivy, panda's, cobra's, deer, crocodiles, lions, malaria, ticks, pigs, spiders, flies, tares, marijuana, squirrels, leaches, mold, vampire bats, syphilis.

Please tell me which of these God created, and which Satan made. 

The prophecy is that - in the forever Kingdom -  "the lion will eat straw like the ox" .  "The child will put his hand into the cobra's hole."  "The wolf will lie down with the lamb."  So it seems that the behavior and even diet of animals, changes with their living conditions.  So there will still BE lions, and wolves, and cobras - they just will not harm either other animals, or people. 

Dr Baugh has demonstrated with the hyperbarric biosphere, that rattle snakes venom becomes non-poisonous after a few weeks in 2 times normal atmospheric pressure.