SUFFERING

[JoeMo]

Wingnut,

If we humans can perform genetic modifications to significantly alter a species (or maybe even "manufacture" new ones), what makes you think satan can't?  He is certainly more experienced and well-versed in the laws of nature and biology than we are.

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Wingnut,

If we humans can perform genetic modifications to significantly alter a species (or maybe even "manufacture" new ones), what makes you think satan can't?  He is certainly more experienced and well-versed in the laws of nature and biology than we are.

This is like inventing another Bigfoot.  Now Satan has a laboratory where he is [secretly??] turning animals to the dark side and letting them loose on the world.  Does God know about this?  Well, then its God's responsibility for putting him on earth in the first place, since there are 7 other planets in our solar system alone where God could have put Satan if He did not want him to cause trouble.

 

Or, as I believe, everything is exactly as it was created to be by God.  And this is a beautiful world, flies and all.

[Wingnut]

Even Ellen does not seem to be saying that Satan caused decay.  Here is what she wrote of the fall...

"In humility and unutterable sadness they bade farewell to their beautiful home and went forth to dwell upon the earth, where rested the curse of sin. The atmosphere, once so mild and uniform in temperature, was now subject to marked changes, and the Lord mercifully provided them with a garment of skins as a protection from the extremes of heat and cold.

Page 62

As they witnessed in drooping flower and falling leaf the first signs of decay, Adam and his companion mourned more deeply than men now mourn over their dead. The death of the frail, delicate flowers was indeed a cause of sorrow; but when the goodly trees cast off their leaves, the scene brought vividly to mind the stern fact that death is the portion of every living thing." http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pp/pp3.html

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Even Ellen does not seem to be saying that Satan caused decay.  Here is what she wrote of the fall...

"In humility and unutterable sadness they bade farewell to their beautiful home and went forth to dwell upon the earth, where rested the curse of sin. The atmosphere, once so mild and uniform in temperature, was now subject to marked changes, and the Lord mercifully provided them with a garment of skins as a protection from the extremes of heat and cold.

Page 62

As they witnessed in drooping flower and falling leaf the first signs of decay, Adam and his companion mourned more deeply than men now mourn over their dead. The death of the frail, delicate flowers was indeed a cause of sorrow; but when the goodly trees cast off their leaves, the scene brought vividly to mind the stern fact that death is the portion of every living thing." http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pp/pp3.html

I don't believe the temperature fluctuated widely until AFTER the FLOOD.  So - guess I would have to disagree with Mrs. White's description of things.

Interesting that you're more in tune with EGW on this, with a completely DIFFERENT world just outside the garden - one with wide weather changes, and carnivorous animals - one which Satan had controlled for a long time.  Adam and Eve were placed in a bubble - inside the garden - where nothing painful or "evil" existed.  The "curse" existed only "outside" of the garden. 

Is that about right?

To me, the "garden" was the location of the Tree of Life.  Access to the Tree made one immortal.  It was access to the Tree which was blocked after Adam/Eve disobeyed the LORD.  The Tree was then removed from the earth.  In Revelation, the Tree of Life is described as being inside the New Jerusalem.  The New Jerusalem will descend to earth.  The New Jerusalem will then be "the garden", but the entire EARTH will be made "new" - just as it was before sin.

[Wingnut]

41 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't believe the temperature fluctuated widely until AFTER the FLOOD.  So - guess I would have to disagree with Mrs. White's description of things.

Interesting that you're more in tune with EGW on this, with a completely DIFFERENT world just outside the garden - one with wide weather changes, and carnivorous animals - one which Satan had controlled for a long time.  Adam and Eve were placed in a bubble - inside the garden - where nothing painful or "evil" existed.  The "curse" existed only "outside" of the garden. 

Is that about right?

To me, the "garden" was the location of the Tree of Life.  Access to the Tree made one immortal.  It was access to the Tree which was blocked after Adam/Eve disobeyed the LORD.  The Tree was then removed from the earth.  In Revelation, the Tree of Life is described as being inside the New Jerusalem.  The New Jerusalem will descend to earth.  The New Jerusalem will then be "the garden", but the entire EARTH will be made "new" - just as it was before sin.

I agree with this.  

You obviously know something about earth's temperatures that I don't.  I don't believe God covered them with skins because of temperature differences, but because now they were ashamed of nakedness, and because there were thorns to rip their skin, sun to burn them away from the shade of Eden - and because God wanted the type of killing a lamb to cover/atone for sin.

My belief is that the Garden of Eden was like a little oasis in a world exactly like today.  It is like my back yard which has no wild animals either, and has fruit trees, grape vines, figs etc.  What it lacks is a Tree of Knowledge.  But to make up for this I have the internet.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Wingnut said:

My belief is that the Garden of Eden was like a little oasis in a world exactly like today.  It is like my back yard which has no wild animals either, and has fruit trees, grape vines, figs etc.  What it lacks is a Tree of Knowledge.  But to make up for this I have the internet.

lol lol lol 

[Wingnut]

There are many reasons why folks suffer, but one reason is sick thinking.  I know some folk who are chronic worriers.

The person they cannot get away from is themselves.

I know many folk say "Be yourself".

But if one is a big worrier, a grudge holder, envious of others, an addict, having an inferiority complex, etc. then the last person I would want to be is myself.

So we look around for role models to copy. Jesus and Socrates come to mind, or whoever one admires.

To me, one's whole life's goal should NOT be "Being oneself" but should rather be "Become better than your current self".

If one can end the day having learned and changed something about oneself, then that was a good day.

 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

8th day: I don't believe the temperature fluctuated widely until AFTER the FLOOD.  So - guess I would have to disagree with Mrs. White's description of things.

The quote actually said "marked changes", not "fluctuated wildly", which, to my mind, are quite different things.

Here's a quote I like:

Quote

Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, “Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?” The Master answered, “An enemy hath done this.” All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares (Manuscript 65, 1899)

From Job, we can see what Satan is capable of in regards to weather, even without the flood.  It makes sense to me that the weather would have changed after the fall, for the same reason poisonous herbs would spring up, although I think the weather impact was mild compared to what happened after the flood.

[JoeMo]

" Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lords great garden ..."

That may be true; but the garden did not encompass the entire planet.  I believe that when Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, they were cast into the wild world that already existed outside the garden.  "Noxious" plants (weeds and thistles) already existed out there.

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

The quote actually said "marked changes", not "fluctuated wildly", which, to my mind, are quite different things.

Here's a quote I like:

From Job, we can see what Satan is capable of in regards to weather, even without the flood.  It makes sense to me that the weather would have changed after the fall, for the same reason poisonous herbs would spring up, although I think the weather impact was mild compared to what happened after the flood.

Thanks Tom.  I like that.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

" Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lords great garden ..."

That may be true; but the garden did not encompass the entire planet.  I believe that when Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, they were cast into the wild world that already existed outside the garden.  "Noxious" plants (weeds and thistles) already existed out there.

Joe,

You believe that Satan was free to control everything outside of "the garden" even before Adam sinned? 

I have a hard time believing that Christ actually created a chaotic earth, with tares and carnivores, and poisonous snakes. 

I agree that the LORD accepts responsibility for those things which He has allowed Satan to do.  I'm just not convinced that Satan was turned loose on the earth, until Adam actually sinned against his Creator. 

[JoeMo]

Ok, Rachel, now you're gonna get me in trouble!

It is my current opinion (not stauch dogma)  that from Genesis 1:2 onward, God was dealing with an earth that had already gone through several "extinction" events (e.g., major meteoroid impacts severe volcanic disruption) that did things like kill of invertabrates about 300 Million years ago and killed off the dinosaurs about 65 Million Years ago.  I believe that the Bible specifically documents the history of God's interaction with man (except for Gen. 1:1); not the history of the universe.  There could be millions (if not billions) of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I believe that the garden was a relatively small area planted by God in an otherwise relatively hostile environment.  God placed man in the garden, expecting him to expand the garden over the entire planet.  The planet was not under satan's control until after the fall; when he made a relatively hostile environment even more hostile; and he has been doing so ever since.

I believe that it is possible that the end-time plagues could be at least partially caused another extra-terrestrial or geological "extinction event" as God's protection is withdrawn from the earth.

[phkrause]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Ok, Rachel, now you're gonna get me in trouble!

It is my current opinion (not stauch dogma)  that from Genesis 1:2 onward, God was dealing with an earth that had already gone through several "extinction" events (e.g., major meteoroid impacts severe volcanic disruption) that did things like kill of invertabrates about 300 Million years ago and killed off the dinosaurs about 65 Million Years ago.  I believe that the Bible specifically documents the history of God's interaction with man (except for Gen. 1:1); not the history of the universe.  There could be millions (if not billions) of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I believe that the garden was a relatively small area planted by God in an otherwise relatively hostile environment.  God placed man in the garden, expecting him to expand the garden over the entire planet.  The planet was not under satan's control until after the fall; when he made a relatively hostile environment even more hostile; and he has been doing so ever since.

I believe that it is possible that the end-time plagues could be at least partially caused another extra-terrestrial or geological "extinction event" as God's protection is withdrawn from the earth.

Don't believe any of that for one minute!!!

[pnattmbtc]

There's a tag on this topic which says "why people stop believing in God."  This is indeed an important subject.  How we view God impacts everything about us.

There's a book on this subject I like by Greg Boyd called "Is God To Blame?"  Greg Boyd is a non-SDA who believes the Great Controversy theme.  He's written many hundreds of pages on this, without one word from Ellen White; all scripture!  And there are people who think the Great Controversy idea is something Ellen White made up.

At any rate, Boyd discusses the Great Controversy (for which he has another name, like "Trinitarian Warfare") bringing out free will, risk, love, and how these relate to suffering.

[Aliensanctuary]

In this life we do seem to have the unfortunate tendency to be receivers of demon's projected telepathic influences which can lead us all down the wrong path towards extreme selfishness. For some, it's a selfishness so powerful that it turns them into monsters who abuse, steal, destroy, murder, and harm themselves and others with no concern at all for the pain and tears that they cause.

Although Christ had to endure the temptations to be selfish directly from the Demon King himself, we, too, must endure similar attacks. Our only defense, it seems, is to study the Scriptures and cultivate a relationship as obedient servants of our Creator. All suffering, then, originates from the Dark Side, and includes every disease due to our inability to access the healing powers of the Tree of Life, and Living Water.

It's a big mistake, then, to blame our Creator for our failure to resist demonic influences and our natural inclination to harm others or ourselves. Someday, evil will torment us no longer and we can all live out our destinies as selfless servants of the LORD.

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Ok, Rachel, now you're gonna get me in trouble!

It is my current opinion (not stauch dogma)  that from Genesis 1:2 onward, God was dealing with an earth that had already gone through several "extinction" events (e.g., major meteoroid impacts severe volcanic disruption) that did things like kill of invertabrates about 300 Million years ago and killed off the dinosaurs about 65 Million Years ago.  I believe that the Bible specifically documents the history of God's interaction with man (except for Gen. 1:1); not the history of the universe.  There could be millions (if not billions) of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I believe that the garden was a relatively small area planted by God in an otherwise relatively hostile environment.  God placed man in the garden, expecting him to expand the garden over the entire planet.  The planet was not under satan's control until after the fall; when he made a relatively hostile environment even more hostile; and he has been doing so ever since.

I believe that it is possible that the end-time plagues could be at least partially caused another extra-terrestrial or geological "extinction event" as God's protection is withdrawn from the earth.

Thanks Joe, for explaining what you currently believe. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/6/2016 at 1:15 PM, JoeMo said:

Ok, Rachel, now you're gonna get me in trouble!

It is my current opinion (not stauch dogma)  that from Genesis 1:2 onward, God was dealing with an earth that had already gone through several "extinction" events (e.g., major meteoroid impacts severe volcanic disruption) that did things like kill of invertabrates about 300 Million years ago and killed off the dinosaurs about 65 Million Years ago.  I believe that the Bible specifically documents the history of God's interaction with man (except for Gen. 1:1); not the history of the universe.  There could be millions (if not billions) of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I believe that the garden was a relatively small area planted by God in an otherwise relatively hostile environment.  God placed man in the garden, expecting him to expand the garden over the entire planet.  The planet was not under Satan's control until after the fall; when he made a relatively hostile environment even more hostile; and he has been doing so ever since.

Psalm 115:16 "Heaven belongs to ADONAI, but the earth he has given to humankind." (CJB)

The whole EARTH - not just a little "garden".

Genesis 1:26  Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule [have dominion] over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth." (CJB)

Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (KJV)

"Very good" doesn't sound like a "relatively hostile environment". 

Genesis 1:26 is BEFORE Eve ate of the "Tree".   Humankind had "dominion".  Human beings were given dominion, on condition of perfect obedience. 

Satan stole the dominion, (by deception) because he got the humans to disobey.  Satan knew they would loose the dominion.  When mankind lost the dominion, Satan began to manipulate things. 

Christ had to come as a man, to fulfill the conditions for dominion - perfect obedience.  Only as a man, could Jesus win back the dominion FOR MANKIND. 

Jesus wins the dominion by fulfilling the condition - perfect obedience.  With the dominion comes the right to say who will live within His dominion - His kingdom.  Hence the right to judge. 

[JoeMo]

Good stuff, Rachel, as always.

I agree that God gave man dominion over all the earth; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole earth was the garden.  After Adam and Eve sinned,  He kicked them out of the Garden into ???  The Garden was still there - guarded against future human intrusion by angels.  The rest of the world - while still a habitable (even thriving) environment - was NOT the garden.  It's reasonable that part of Adam and Eve's "dominion responsibilities" was to expand the garden to the entire planet as they multiplied and increased in number.

God said everything was VERY GOOD; but He didn't say it was PERFECT.  Could He have been expecting man to manage and expand the Garden, kinda like He uses man now to spread the Gospel?

Would you agree that Jesus won the "keys" to the planet back at His death and resurrection?  If so, why hasn't he yet taken possession of them?  He may have dominion, but it doesn't appear that He has possession yet.  Did Adam and Eve have dominion over the whole earth; but they sinned before they could take possession of it?

I ask not to challenge, but to put a mental construct on how I see Genesis unfold.  We have so little understanding of the antediluvian environment that it is difficult to wrap our minds around what the pre-flood world was like.  There may have been some suffering then; but I doubt it was like suffering of today.  The planet and people have been "cursed" so many times since the days of Adam and Eve.

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/9/2016 at 4:26 PM, JoeMo said:

Good stuff, Rachel, as always.

I agree that God gave man dominion over all the earth; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole earth was the garden.  After Adam and Eve sinned,  He kicked them out of the Garden into ???  The Garden was still there - guarded against future human intrusion by angels.  The rest of the world - while still a habitable (even thriving) environment - was NOT the garden.  It's reasonable that part of Adam and Eve's "dominion responsibilities" was to expand the garden to the entire planet as they multiplied and increased in number.

God said everything was VERY GOOD; but He didn't say it was PERFECT.  Could He have been expecting man to manage and expand the Garden, kinda like He uses man now to spread the Gospel?

Would you agree that Jesus won the "keys" to the planet back at His death and resurrection?  If so, why hasn't he yet taken possession of them?  He may have dominion, but it doesn't appear that He has possession yet.  Did Adam and Eve have dominion over the whole earth; but they sinned before they could take possession of it?

I ask not to challenge, but to put a mental construct on how I see Genesis unfold.  We have so little understanding of the antediluvian environment that it is difficult to wrap our minds around what the pre-flood world was like.  There may have been some suffering then; but I doubt it was like suffering of today.  The planet and people have been "cursed" so many times since the days of Adam and Eve.

Jesus does NOT YET have dominion over the whole earth.  He will receive that dominion at the conclusion of the judgment described in Daniel Cpt 7:9-10.

Daniel 7:14 "Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed." (NKJ)

Daniel 7:26-27 "But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his [Satan's] dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.  His [Christ's] kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him."

Currently - Satan is "Prince of this world" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11).    He now stands condemned, because the universe of unfallen beings has witnessed his murder of the Son of God.  His true character has been revealed - to them at least. 

So why did God not end Satan's dominion, when Jesus rose from the dead? 

Answer:  Because He "is not willing that any should perish" (2Pe 3:9).  There were too many savable people still left to win for the kingdom. 

Answer:  Because He did not yet have priests, to teach those who never HEARD, or never would HEAR the gospel during their lifetimes.

Christ has been made "head of all things to the church", but He does not yet rule the whole world.   

[Raphael]

Sufferring is why there so many unbelievers?

When Christ sat on that hill surrounded by "lost roving multitudes of Israel" who where obviously in pain not only from the oppression of the Roman conquest but also from failing economics.. One can google far more details about exactly how bad the times were at that period.. Then Christ spoke to them about their pain and suffering.. Remember? The Beatitudes.. Blessed are those that suffer, blessed are those that hunger and so on.. Was it also ominous warnings to the worldly blessed? See that story of the rich young man who wanted to follow Christ but became worse then a camel.

This Beatitudes are to be followed by the Sowers Parable.. After defeating the first level challenge of stony ground, advancing to fertile ground.. The 2nd challenge arises of killing-distractive weeds or grass..

This 2nd level challenge is where the rich young man failed.. He succeeded passing the first level though..

That's why all "elected" workers/messengers of God recorded in the Bible have "nothing".. Only kings & kingdom rulers and very few others are mentioned to be endowed with desired world comfort.. But clearly still paying the pain qouta of suffering (particularly for the mentioned righteous).

EGW is a woman/mother.. What's the greatest pain for her? The death of her very own child.. She failed the first test, obviously and the test was given again years later.. This time she passed.. Though I'm sure she went through her greatest hell suffering as all required to gain entrance and be the super-molecular-fraction from entire humans that ever existed.

Blessed are they suffer and hunger and thirst.. And beat the sower's challenges.

Happy Sabbath GBU