What does it mean to be white in America?

[lazarus]

I'm really interested to know if anyone would be willing to answer this intriguing question. A white man on a video I saw recently said he had never thought about it before.

http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm

The Color of Fear is an insightful, groundbreaking film about the state of race relations in America as seen through the eyes of eight North American men of Asian, European, Latino and African descent. In a series of intelligent, emotional and dramatic confrontations the men reveal the pain and scars that racism has caused them. What emerges is a deeper sense of understanding and trust. This is the dialogue most of us fear, but hope will happen sometime in our lifetime.

[cricket]

One thing it means (to me) is that white people must treat people of other color better than they would (treat people of the same color) out of fear of being labeled racist.

[lazarus]

What u said is interesting. Do you think that white people actually do treat people of a different color better? If yes, please give some examples

[cricket]

I can't answer for anyone but myself, but in many cases, I do, indeed make an effort to treat better (more carefully, with greater consideration) people of other colors. It is in small things, usually--things like holding the door open longer; allowing them extra time to arrive (without me calling in frustration); not interrupting when they are speaking (even though I have something really important to say and would have interrupted anyone that was the same color as I am); withholding opinion because it isn't the same as theirs (and therefore being accused as being racist because I'm not of the same opinion); returning a phone call to the person who is not my color before returning a phone call even to my mother (thus avoiding the possibility that my other-colored acquaintance might call and get a busy signal--indicating to him/her that someone else (someone of a similar color to me) is "more important").

An action that might be considered simply rude by those that are of the same color, is sometimes considered racist by others.

In an equal opportunity employment situation, non-caucasians are often hired instead of more qualified caucasians. Then, some of the people who have been hired continue on in a state of higher expectations from their employers. Every rebuke, every criticism is milked for any signs of racism. Once anything can be misconstrued as racism, the battle about racism begins.

A condensed,

real-life situation I know of:

Caucasian employer (to caucasian employee): "Bob, I really need you to come in to work tomorrow. We are backed up in getting this shipment out and we really need you. Jackie's been working every Saturday for the past 8 weeks. She really needs a break."

Caucasian employee: "Thanks, Susan. I can really use the overtime. It's been two months since I've gotten any extra pay."

Non-caucasian employee (hearing the last part of the

conversation): "Susan! That's not fair. You know I really need the money too. You just asked Bob to do it because he's white!"

The next Friday...

Caucasian employer to non-caucasian employee: "Jackie, looks like we're going to need some extra help this weekend. Will you be able to come in and help us with this shipment?"

Non-caucasian employee: "What? Why are you giving Bob the weekend off? It's because he's white, isn't it. You think just because I'm black I need the extra money and wouldn't like my time off."

The following weekend...

Memo posted on the bulletin board:

EXTRA SHIPPERS NEEDED!!!

ANY AND ALL EMPLOYEES WHO WISH TO WORK OVERTIME THIS WEEKEND ARE WELCOME. ANY WHO WISH TO HAVE THE WEEKEND OFF ARE WELCOME TO DO SO.

Neither Bob nor Jackie showed up that weekend. Susan did the job alone.

[Taylor]

I have no idea how to answer that question. I truly think I am color blind. I remember once when I was visiting a black church someone afterwards mentioned to me "Did you notice you were the only white there?" I looked at them rather blankly for a second...because the thought had never occurred to me. Yes, I knew it was a "black" church but I just enjoyed the service so much that the "color" issue never entered my head.

Someone also pointed out that my current church has an incredibly high mixture of people who aren't white...i.e. black. orientals, Hispanics, middle easterners...well not as white as some at least. I had noticed the various races and that is one reason I joined that church, as I loved the mixture, but I had never thought about it since, in the last 2 years. People to me are people....just that. I have often thought how silly it is to make value judgements based on color or race. It's like saying that a blue parakeet is better than a green parakeet..just crazy. They are both parakeets.

Having said that, there are cultural differences that can bring in some challenges of understanding each other due to the difference in upbringing or background, or customs, but I generally enjoy that type of challenge.

Just my 2 cents.

[cricket]

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and that is one reason I joined that church

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Here's where it gets tricky. See, from my standpoint, treating non-same-as-me colored people differently at all (be it for the good, or for the bad) is what is truly wrong with our societies.

We can never say we are "truly color blind" until we stop seeking out places to be because of the diversity. We can only say we are "color blind" when we treat everyone equally: that is, if we are normally kind to one another, be kind still. If we are normally rude to one another, be rude still.

We should no longer be ashamed to be a member of an all white church, school, or place of employment. Just as we should be not afraid to be in a church, school, or place of employment where we are the only one of a particular race.

Then, and only then, will we be truly color blind.

[Taylor]

Ahh but I think you have missunderstood what I said. I am not ashamed to be white. I am perfectly happy in an all white church or an all black church or an all asian church.

But what I enjoy is the wonderful diversity that different races bring to my church. I went there not because I need to treat people differently, because I really don't think I do. I just love the wonderful input, backgrounds, ways of looking at life, preferred worship styles, languages, and yes appearance. I just enjoy all of it!

I have wonderful friends of many different races, but some of my closests friends are Hispanic, Black, Indian from India, Asian, and yes White as well. I love to travel and meet new people who are different than I am, speak a different language, or look different, or have different customes.

I was raised outside the USA as I was born to missionary parents. I didn't even realize there was a difference in skin color till I was school age. I know that might seem unbelievable but I had never noticed such things. People were people.

Just my 2 cents.

[Neil D]

Some thoughts from my past......

I am white, and I live in a white society, generally speaking. My church is pretty much white, and most of my colleages are white. That is currently.

Growing up, there was a period where I lived in Sacremento, in a school that I truely feared. Ignorant beyond my years regarding racial tensions. I remember being accosted by a black highschooler and his friends for money to which is smiled real big and pulled out my pockets. I had none. He let me go past.

I recently saw the movie "Crash"...Truely a remarkable film regarding racism. And one that will keep you guessing...The views of the white character and the blacks felt real. [and you have to used your language filters].

[Amelia]

It means having to keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself while the "minorities" can say anything they want to me without repercusion; cause it's their "due".

[lazarus]

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Cricket said:

We can never say we are "truly color blind" until we stop seeking out places to be because of the diversity.

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I really don't like the idea of being "color blind". I see color because I see people. People are not all the same, cultures are not all the same. If you "see" someones color them. If you prejudge/think you are superiour becasue of someones color then that is wrong.

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We should no longer be ashamed to be a member of an all white church, school, or place of employment.

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One should be ashamed if the attitude is to keep it all white, or if folks want to move out if too many people of color turn up there. I see that racism over and over again in our so called Christian Churches and schools.

If the demographics dictate all white then thats natural but if attitudes and policies perpetuate all white then thats racism pure and simple.

[lazarus]

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Amelia said:

It means having to keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself while the "minorities" can say anything they want to me without repercusion; cause it's their "due".

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Amelia, can you give an example of something you may want to say but feel you can't say for risk of offending.

Also what kind of things do minorities say without risk of reprucussion

[Neil D]

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Also what kind of things do minorities say without risk of reprucussion

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I think that minorities can say pretty much anything around me, as long as they don't blind side me with an accusatory race card...ie " You whites are always.... [fill in the blank]".

Now, if they say, "I have noticed the following actions that favor whites..." , I will probably watch out making decisions that look to be favoring whites .... But generally speaking, most of my decisions are based upon individual needs...not a race...and not the color of skin...

Or at least, I think that my decisions are not race related....

but then, I could be seen as second guessing myself....

[Taylor]

Lazarus said:

I really don't like the idea of being "color blind". I see color because I see people. People are not all the same, cultures are not all the same. If you "see" someones color them. If you prejudge/think you are superiour becasue of someones color then that is wrong.

I agree. You said it better than I. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

I treat black people better than others. Perhaps because I want to go the extra mile to not be racist. An example is listening. I pay more attention to a black person when he or she speaks than I do an asian, hispanic or white person.

I live in an area that is 87% hispanic. The other day when I was in the shoe section in Wal-mart, a little hispanic boy was telling his mom "Mira mommy, es un gringo" and he kept repeating it until she told him to be quiet. Traslated it means, "Look mom, he's a white guy". Of the 13% non-hispanics in the area, there are almost as many asians as there are whites and only a handful of blacks.

[cricket]

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One should be ashamed if the attitude is to keep it all white, or if folks want to move out if too many people of color turn up there. I see that racism over and over again in our so called Christian Churches and schools.

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I made my statement with the assumption that the attitude would be that all people are welcome--regardless of race, sex, nationality, origin, religion and even standard of dress.

Scaling it down to a smaller size: should I be ashamed if I were to have a small gathering of friends--say two or three couples (and their children)--to my home, and invite only people of a race the same as mine? I do live in a community that is 30-40% African-american. If an African-american neighbor were to come over and see that I had a small gathering that was not 30-40% non-Caucasian, would he/she be justified in saying that I am racist?

If I extended that gathering to a small Bible study and it grew over a period of time to say, 20 people--would he/she be justified in saying that I am racist if 30-40% of the people attending were not Caucasian?

Are we automatically racist if our gatherings do not match our demographics?

The emphasis on embracing differences is difficult to mesh with the emphasis on being all-inclusive.

There are people who do not attend religious services that are too liberal (or conservatinve); people who refuse to attend because the preacher is too loud (or too quiet, or speaks with too thick an accent); people who don't like the music (or the lack of music); people who don't like the way the preacher dresses (or **undresses**); the list goes on and on.

When is the person who chooses a different style of worship (or acquaintenceship, or employment) rightly accused of being racist? There must be other elements that come into play that must first be identified before accusing another human being of racist actions.

There should never, ever be an assumption that someone else is racist. Never should one accuse another as being a "racist in denial". The only one that can read the heart is God. In the meantime, search for solid evidence. Search for understanding. Search for the heart of the matter, and not just make assumptions of racism because it "seems that way to you".

[lazarus]

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Cricket said:

Scaling it down to a smaller size: to have a small gathering of friends--say two or three couples (and their children)--to my home, and invite only people of a race the same as mine?

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If you only invite people of a particular race to your house because they are your closest friends or you only know people of a particular race that well, then that is not racist.

If, however, you do not invite certain people to your house BECAUSE they are a particular race (or because race is a factor) then racism is obviously involved.

I'm not sure if you thoroughly read what I posted. If a group is naturally white/black then of course that is not racist. If there are policies/attitudes that see to maintain a particular demographic then that is palpably wrong.

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The emphasis on embracing differences is difficult to mesh with the emphasis on being all-inclusive.

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I don't understand why you feel that. Please explain a bit more.

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When is the person who chooses a different style of worship (or acquaintenceship, or employment) rightly accused of being racist?

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Let me see if I can answer your question as I see it.......

I have pastored and been a member of churches where people have left specifically becuase there have been too many people of color attending. As I have visited with then privately they have told me explicity. The music is the same. The order of service have not changed in decades. The new people almost drees a little more conservative. They have left because the majority of the church was now African-American, Caribbean, African and they don't feel as if they want to worship there anymore.

The reasons are complex for feeling this way are complex but any element of this is racism.

I have had a white SDA school principal tell me plainly that white parents tell him that they don't want their kids going to his school because there are too many black and Spanish kids there. Agains the reasons for this are not simple but there is a strong element of racism there.

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Never should one accuse another as being a "racist in denial".

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If someone is a racist and they give evidence of it and they deny it then its right to are "you are a racist but you are denying it". I don't understand why you should say we should never assert that. Its tough, its hard, but it may need to be said. Many years ago a good friend of mine said to me "you're selfish"...I denied it. He was right and I'm glad he said it.

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and not just make assumptions of racism because it "seems that way to you".

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I'm sorry if you feel that I have made assumptions. The way that I have tried to pressent this post has been to invite comments....and just in case u missed it get understanding by asking folks to explain. This is a tough subject and it will lead to misunderstandings and deeper understandings.

To us the phrase "seems that way to you", in the way you do suggests that the way I see it has very little basis. But of course, I may guess the way you see it has a solid foundation!

[cricket]

Lazarus, I'm sorry if it felt as if I were directing the statements I made to you specifically, I should have written, "...not just make assumptions of racism because it "seems that way [to the one making the assumption]."

You mentioned something here that I do see as a problem,

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The reasons are complex for feeling this way are complex but any element of this is racism.

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Any element? I disagree. Each and every element needs to be examined--none lumped in with the others as "racism in general".

Race is one thing. Culture is another.

[Neil D]

In the origional MASH movie, [and book, if I remember correctly] Spearchucker [a black neurosurgeon, who got his name due to some football related incident, me thinks] was noticed to be with the blacks in the Mash unit a bit too regularly. Hawkeye and Trapper, both good physcians who wanted to promote the physcians atomsphere, confronted Spearchucker about this. "What is this?" they said. "You don't like us whites?" To which, Spearchucker said "Guys, it not about whites and blacks. I am with you white people all day long. I am just getting back to my roots." And, what this said to me, was that the neurosurgeon didn't want to be looked upon as being "uppity". It was a neurosurgeon, an accomplishment in it's own right in the medical field, was attempting to help raise the social bar for fellow blacks.

So, yeah, culture among blacks and whites do tend to be different...And it seems to me that each factor needs to be looked at separately, not collectively.

And I am open to other ideas regarding this...

[ChildofChrist]

At the elementary school where I work as Special Ed Assistant, there are over 40 countries represented by students. I am as happy to help out with any one of them regardless. I've worked also with many of the ELL children and they always smile and reach out for me as I pass in the halls.

Regardless of color, religion, dress or language spoken at home; love comes shining thru. Even when I see them out in the community!

It is a lot of the 'grownups' that have difficulty getting along with each other. (imho)

[james423]

I had something similiar to some of the experiences people have mentioned happen to me in Africa.

As a GC missionary, I can remember division headquarters coming down on the white missionaries on our mission station because we organized a social function / worship once a month where we could get away from the cross-cultural problems we faced every day, sing hymns in English for once, and just associate together and encourage each other. The division hierarchy, who lived and worked (when not traveling) in a white-controlled country, felt that we were being too exclusive (read "racist") in our social activities.

Were we racist? I don't think so. Bear in mind that the six or eight white missionaries and their families were scattered across a 220-bed hospital, a publishing house, a farm, and a secondary (high-school level) school. Bear in mind also that there were only roughly 7,000 whites in a total population of five or six million in that country.

Of course, a group can carry this too far by gathering with their own kind all the time, but I think sometimes that people who accuse others of racism want everyone to agree totally with them, which is not going to happen.

[lazarus]

I really don't understand why folks are having a problem accepting the notion that to leave achurch because there are too many new people of a certain color is not racist. The music is the same, the order of the service is the same. The preaching style is essentially the same and the dress standards are the same. That is the point I am making.

Coulds somebody tell me what noble factors there are in making a decision to leave a Church or school under those circumstances. I am genuinely puzzled.

[Dr. Shane]

Well I am afraid that if there are too many white people in my church I may fall asleep during the service and catch frostbite

[lazarus]

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I am with you white people all day long. I am just getting back to my roots." And, what this said to me, was that the neurosurgeon didn't want to be looked upon as being "uppity". It was a neurosurgeon, an accomplishment in it's own right in the medical field, was attempting to help raise the social bar for fellow blacks.

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To "be with white people all day long" can mean all kinds of things. It could mean that he was tired of having to justify his being there. Some black doctors have had the experience that people will always assume he/she is an orderly rather than a doctor. He may have just wanted to relax!

I'm interested that you arrived at the conclusion that he didn't want to be seen as uppity!

We have a friend, who is "resident". She comes to our house just to chill, hang out because we are her friends and she also knows she doesn't have to explain, just talk and we know what she means particularly when it come to issues of race and racism.

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So, yeah, culture among blacks and whites do tend to be different

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I 'd love to know how you see the culture of blacks from a White perspective.

[lazarus]

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james423 said:

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We organized a social function / worship once a month where we could get away from the cross-cultural problems we faced every day, sing hymns in English for once, and just associate together and encourage each other.

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If someone from the country in which you were ministering wanted to come or even just turned up would you be resentful or even ask them to leave? To me thats the key question. Would you react the same way if a white person who was not part of your group decided to come?

[cricket]

Simply the element of difference in skin color would be no reason to change churches.

However, people may perceive a difference in the welcoming greeting, in the conversation in Sabbath schools, in the potlucks, and in the types of social gatherings. The differences in culture are the things that might make a person look for another church.