Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Martn]

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Who gave you the right to define what bigotry is?

You can make up whatever definition you like. But that's just you. There's no basis for it.

Sure there is. For an evolutionist to declare any scientist who believes in the biblical accounts of Creation and the flood to not be a scientist, that's bigotry. For a Jew to declare any Jew who believes in Jesus to not be a Jew, even though the believing Jew believes "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14), that's bigotry.

If a scientist using the scientific method honestly can't find any other possible explanation for the presence of soft tissue in dinosaur bones than a young earth and a global flood, how is he no longer a scientist than through bigotry? If a Jew honestly can't find any other plausible explanation for the pronouncements in the law and the prophets than that Jesus is the Messiah, how is he no longer a Jew than through bigotry?

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

I'm not unaware of the Christian theory of what a Jew is. The Jews are under no obligation to accept this theory.

I never said anything about "the Christian theory." I doubt there is any such thing. I merely cited the Jewish scholar Paul, and what he wrote in Romans 2. You asserted that only Jews had the right to define what a Jew is. I therefore pointed you to a Jewish writer on that topic.

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Christians claim to be Jews. They're all "messianic Jews" in that respect. Yet most claim that a man is God, and that is blasphemy according to their own scriptures. They are the only ones who are doing this, so the "blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not" has to refer to them.

??? Where does the NT ever say that Christ being called God is blasphemy? The only verses I can think of that say that are verses that record the saying of those who did not believe.

Where I was first tipped off to the fact that Jews expected the Messiah to be divine was this 1883 statement by Ellen White:

"Paul had never seen Christ while he dwelt upon the earth. He had indeed heard of him and his works, but he could not believe that the promised Messiah, the Creator of all worlds, the Giver of all blessings, would appear upon earth as a mere man. He had looked for him to come in robes of majesty, attended with royal pomp, and proclaimed by the angelic host as king of the Jews" (LP 256-257).

Only after finding this did I catch the significance of the declarations in the NT that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. I had previously been under the impression that the Jews rejected Christ because they didn't think the Messiah would be divine, but at least for some Jews like Paul, the opposite was true.

[Pickle]

7 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

Sounds like the irs. They love that word. And use it over and over and over and over. And yet they themselves are among the biggest deceivers on the planet. I really don't like that word, therefore. It's lost it's meaning on me. Could you try being more original?

Better yet, just provide some sort of support for your assertions so that I have no need to convey that thought again.

[Martn]

[Martn]

32 minutes ago, Pickle said:

the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel

I Jesus have sent mine angel

As it says in the very first verse of Revelation:

God sent Jesus to the servants of God.

And then Jesus sent his "angel" to John.

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Tom Wetmore]

Administrative warning:

Pickle and MCBGM  It is time for both of you to tone it down and stop making this personal.  Stick to the topic and stop throwing insults and accusations at each other.

Just drop this petty dispute and move on.

 

[Martn]

Why are people continuing to draw this out, when they know I'm not allowed to respond?

[Pickle]

23 hours ago, MCBGM said:

As it says in the very first verse of Revelation:

God sent Jesus to the servants of God.

And then Jesus sent his "angel" to John.

Revelation 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Revelation 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The question was whether the angel who refused to allow John to worship him was Jesus or someone else.

Revelation 10:1  And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

That would be Jesus.

Revelation 10:8  And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

That voice would be that of someone else. We can find places in Revelation where the angel Jesus sent is differentiated from Jesus.

Given that Gabriel was the one who gave the 70-week prophecy to Daniel, and Gabriel appeared to Mary and Zacharias, Gabriel ought to be Jesus' angel that Jesus sent.

[Martn]

38 minutes ago, Pickle said:

angel

[phkrause]

34 minutes ago, Pickle said:

Given that Gabriel was the one who gave the 70-week prophecy to Daniel, and Gabriel appeared to Mary and Zacharias, Gabriel ought to be Jesus' angel that Jesus sent.

Exactly!!! That's why the angel tells John not to kneel to him, because he is not "God!"

[Pickle]

5 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

It isn't difficult, most of the time, to determine which angel is a mere angel, and which one is Christ.

[Martn]

2 minutes ago, Pickle said:

angel

[Pickle]

10 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

I thought that was the topic at hand.

As far as the original topic goes, those who were discussing the identity of the 7 heads seem to be long gone.

[Kevin H]

It's gotten to a point where we are no longer able to follow either of your thoughts and arguments