Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Kevin H]

The idea that the Bible does not contradict itself was a part of the fall of Babylon in the mid 1800s. Churches fell into either modernism seeing the Bible as purely human and not inspired, or into fundamentalism.

The contradictions in the Bible are full of lessons that we miss if we refuse to look at them. They teach different aspects of God, they teach about how to disagree with each other yet remain unified and how doctrines can grow

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

 

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

God has never authorized me to do that. But if he did, still I wouldn't be speaking of myself, on my own behalf, but on God's behalf.

When the final days are on the verge, and Jesus is prepared to let the holy be holy still, and the unholy remain unholy, since we know God allows all, freedom of choice, what do you make of

this Word?

14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.

16He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. 17And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. 18Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.^c His number is 666.....Revelation 13

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[Pickle]

18 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Unlikely.

There is no reason to suppose either one of them is incorrect. There is much reason to conclude both are correct.

Then if both are correct, creation week was not 500,000 years ago.

[Pickle]

18 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Number one reason why --you don't listen. Instead you argue, for argument's sake.

Hardly anyone listens. It's almost always all about talk, and lots of it. Seldom hearing.

I already told you I'm not going to get into this right now. For the very reason of what has happened with what little I dared to say.

But consider that you are in effect asking readers to reject what they read in the Bible regarding the age of the earth. In that context, to refuse to give any evidence to support your claim is unreasonable.

[Pickle]

18 hours ago, MCBGM said:

So we're back to calling Jews Christ killers, eh?

This is a very big lie, and an especially nasty one. It is NOT historically accurate, at all.

It would be a terrible shame if Sister White ever actually said any such thing. I know it's written under her name, but I doubt very much she herself had anything to do with it

What? We have Jews accusing the Jews of killing their Messiah. What's the problem?

John 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 7:1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

So the Jews sought to kill Jesus.

Acts 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And Peter says they succeeded.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15  For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

And Paul says they succeeded too.

Leviticus 26:40-41  If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

I'm certain you can see the implications. Acknowledging the sin and accepting the punishment is a divine condition for restoration.

In reality, we all are Christ killers (Ps. 2:1-2; Acts 4:25-28). However, between Caiaphas and Pilate, Caiaphas had "the greater sin" (Jn. 19:11).

[Pickle]

17 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Of course I wouldn't do such a thing. I have no authority to. God has never authorized me to do that. But if he did, still I wouldn't be speaking of myself, on my own behalf, but on God's behalf.

Genesis 31:11  And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Genesis 31:13  I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

This "angel" or messenger from God said He was the God of Bethel. It would have to be Christ.

 

[Pickle]

17 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Jewish people believe it is a very grave error to try and determine the exact moment the end will come. That it is a kind of divination to do so. "Blasted be the bones," they say, for they are forbidden to interpret Daniel or any other prophecy in this manner. Because they believe it is not given to them, or to any man, to know the day or hour, or even the year, of the Messiah's coming.

So, is it permissible to calculate the 70 weeks of Dan. 9 if one doesn't end them with the end? So would ending them in 34 AD be permissible?

I think we have here another example of where tradition trumps inspiration. God sent Gabriel to tell Daniel about the 70 weeks, telling him that they start with the decree to restore and build Jerusalem, and that they extend to the Messiah, and the rabbis have forbidden anyone to figure out when the events foretold will take place, figuring it out using the passage of Scripture that was given for that purpose.

Do we have any passage in the Bible that says our bones are blasted if we do? No. It's as if the curse of some rabbi is more inspired, more authoritative, than a divine message sent through Gabriel.

You've toughed on a question I've had for some time. What was the motivation for that curse? Was it to prevent calculations of the end? Or was it to prevent seeing that the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus?

[Pickle]

16 hours ago, MCBGM said:

As I said previously, their inSpiration is of a mixed nature, with both human and divine origins, and thus they are not held to be authoritative as the Torah and Prophets are.

 

That's not quite what you said previously. You said previously, "The Writings are non-authoritative in all branches of Judaism --Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc."

WikiPedia says they are authoritative. Now you are saying that they aren't authoritative like the Torah and Prophets, which isn't quite the same as your original statement. Your present statement suggests that they aren't as authoritative as the Torah and Prophets, and thus it doesn't conflict with WikiPedia.

[Pickle]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

Green, Thanks for the explanation of Ezekiel's prophecy of the 40 years. I had never heard that before.

One thought on this:

Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nissan in  AD 31 , and the temple was destroyed on the 9 of AV in AD 70 .  The month Av is 4 months after Nissan so the temple was destroyed not exactly 40 years later, but it could rightly be said that it was destroyed in the 40 year after the crucifixion----- 39 years being completed on Nissan 14 and Av 9 being 4 months into the 40th year.

Interesting to note that both the first and second temples were destroyed on the very same date, the 9th of Av.

Take a look at http://www3.telus.net/public/kstam/en/temple/details/evidence.htm or a similar page.

The Jerusalem Talmud:

"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157).

The Babylonian Talmud:

"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

Some folks use this to say that Christ died in 30 AD. The first instance of the crimson thread remaining crimson would have to be the fall of 30 AD, but I think we could simply have this phenomena beginning the fall before Christ's crucifixion.

At any rate, the Talmud records phenomena that began around the time of the crucifixion, phenomena which indicate that God wasn't too happy about something.

[Green Cochoa]

Quote

 Christ not only honored the Sabbath throughout his life upon the earth, but he provided that its sacred claims should be remembered and honored after his death and resurrection. When warning his disciples of the destruction of Jerusalem, which did not take place until forty years after his ascension, he said, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time." In accordance with his instruction, the followers of Christ were enabled to depart from the besieged city, and escape to the mountains, not taking their flight either in the winter, nor upon the Sabbath day. After the death of Christ the disciples "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." After the ascension of Christ, Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, preached to both Jews and Gentiles "on the Sabbath day."  {ST, November 12, 1894 par. 5}  

 

 

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Samie]

The start of the 70 weeks is from the going forth of the commandment to build and restore Jerusalem. The 457BC  decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus was meant for beautification of the temple in Jerusalem. Hence it could not be the decree referred to as the start of the 70 weeks.

The 70 week-prophecy is directly related with the setting up of the abomination of desolation. It looks like it will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd coming and hence are literal 490 days instead of years.

[Pickle]

5 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

 Christ not only honored the Sabbath throughout his life upon the earth, but he provided that its sacred claims should be remembered and honored after his death and resurrection. When warning his disciples of the destruction of Jerusalem, which did not take place until forty years after his ascension, he said, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time." In accordance with his instruction, the followers of Christ were enabled to depart from the besieged city, and escape to the mountains, not taking their flight either in the winter, nor upon the Sabbath day. After the death of Christ the disciples "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." After the ascension of Christ, Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, preached to both Jews and Gentiles "on the Sabbath day."  {ST, November 12, 1894 par. 5}  

We can take this quote as referring to 40 years inclusive, which it would be.I haven't thought that we can take the Talmudic statements in the same way, but maybe we can. I had thought that the latter referred to 40 different Yom Kippurs, but maybe I'm incorrect on that.

[Martn]

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Ah, but it is what I've been saying, all along. What you've taken of me is out of context.

Then do you agree with the Wikipedia article that "The Ketuvim are believed to have been written under divine inspiration"?

[Martn]

[Pickle]

3 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

If both are correct, showing therefore that the Genesis genealogy is abbreviated, then this does allow for a longer timeline than what you are assuming, especially when considering the many generations missing from Genesis which are recorded, multiple times, in the genealogies of other ancient nations which parallel the one in Genesis and which say, in each and every instance, that that period was nearly 500,000 years in length, using exactly the very same numerical term as found in the Hebrew text of Genesis, which has been overlooked. 

Now you are suggesting that neither genealogy is correct while claiming that they are both correct. If you claim that there are multiple missing generations that make the stated ages of the fathers when their sons were born incorrect, then neither genealogy is correct, period.

Gen. 5 says that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. If you say there were missing generations between the two, then Adam was not 130 when he beget Seth, period.

And yet at the same time you say that the Torah is authoritative, even though you are putting some other still undisclosed source above Scripture.