Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Robert]

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.

2 Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings (the Babylonian Empire). I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

5 “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear (the Medo-Persian Empire) . It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

6 “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird (the Greek Empire of Alexander). The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. I twas different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns (the Roman Empire).

 8 I was considering the ten horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Joe, what is the "little horn" that comes on the scene at the end of the Roman Empire?

Dan 7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn (little horn) was making war against the saints...

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time...

 

[Pickle]

7 hours ago, MCBGM said:

The millennium is simply the seemingly long stretch of time between the first and second advents

 

7 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Beginning at the resurrection of Jesus --the first resurrection, when "MANY" (not just a few) of the saints came forth with Jesus, having overcome the beast image and mark (existing even then).

Yet Jn. 5:29 speaks of two resurrections, one of life and one of damnation, and 1 Th. 4 puts the resurrection of life at the second coming. Rev. 20 then puts the resurrection of damnation 1000 years after the resurrection of the blessed and holy.

 

7 hours ago, MCBGM said:

The 70th week is spoken of separately from the 69 weeks --by Daniel himself.

Yet Daniel uses the gender for the plural "weeks" that indicates an indivisible unity, thus ruling out a gap in time between the 69th and 70th week. This is important for a futurist to consider, even if it isn't important to you.

[Pickle]

6 hours ago, MCBGM said:

The problem Jews have with Jesus is that, according to Christian scripture itself, he was not the heir of David. Not through the proper lineage, as was promised to King David that the Messiah would come, saying that the Messiah would come through that line (through David's own seed --Y DNA) and not be passed over in favor of another line instead, regardless of disobedience. The Y DNA (the male seed) cannot be passed through a woman. David's Y DNA cannot be inherited by any woman or adopted son. For Jews who know the prophecy, there can be no getting around this.

As far as proper lineage goes, if I recall correctly, you passed on presenting reasons why Jesus had to be biologically descended from Jehoiachin, and thus your point on that could simply be wrong. As far as being descended from David, Jesus was. You certainly didn't provide any Bible texts that showed how the Son of a genuine virgin birth would be handled, while we do have in Scripture an example of a difference in an ordinary procedure when there are only daughters.

[Pickle]

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

I believe Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth. This is clearly shown in the Hebrew text, something of which most knowledgeable Jews are thoroughly aware. No Jew I know of believes the earth was created literally a mere 6000 years ago. That is not what the Hebrew text in Genesis says. There is much more to the story than meets the eye in any non-Hebrew translation.

Mere assertions. Nothing whatsoever to back up what you're saying.

"Let us make man." And what is the Hebrew word for "man" in that verse in Gen. 1? Adam. Most knowledgeable Jews are thoroughly aware of this fact. And they are also knowledgeable of the fact that the 4th commandment says that God made everything on earth in those 6 days of creation.

So how long ago do the Jews Steve Wohlberg and Clifford Goldstein think the earth was created, if not 6000 years ago? The Bible's chronology doesn't leave much wiggle room. There's some, but not much.

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

The "skins" Adam and Eve received were their physical bodies. Having eaten poisonous fruit, they died, then becoming naked spirits. But when they repented, God took pity on them, forgave them, and returned them to mortal life.

Again, mere assertions.

They received their physical bodies when they were created. There is no hint in Gen. 3 that they became "naked spirits."

6 hours ago, MCBGM said:

What I said is that it was then given (at the time of the Jews) as a replacement for human sacrifice. Other peoples had animal sacrifice, in addition to human sacrifice.

From a biblical standpoint, we can't have animal sacrifice or death before Gen. 3, much less human sacrifice. I raised the point of there not being death before Adam and Eve sinned, and you presented no text in response.

[Pickle]

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Evasiveness implies one has something to hide. Let me assure you, Jews are not the ones who have things to hide.

I aim to be brief, not evasive.

In reviewing the conversation, I'm wondering if you edited your response, and that it originally said only Yes. Whatever happened, I probably understood it differently than you intended.

On 4/12/2016 at 2:58 PM, MCBGM said:

Let me try to explain it better. Since the majority of texts and sources tell us Salathiel's father was Jeconiah, then that is who his father was. Regardless of the one single text which says otherwise, for whatever reason. The single text cannot be taken as the true ancestry in place of the majority of texts and sources which say otherwise.

We have two verses that say Salathiel was the son of Jeconiah, and one verse that says he was the son of Neri. That being so, I don't think you've made your case.

 

[Pickle]

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Nothing has been withheld by the Jews, from fellow Jews.

That's not true. The reform rabbi in training I asked about this didn't know the answer. And the ultra-Orthodox leader certainly came across as if he didn't know either.

 

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

No Jew I know of believes the earth is any mere 5776 years old. In truth this is not a date counting up from the past, but a prophecy counting back from the future, from when the Messianic Era is fully manifest.

Then if Jews in general know the chronology is fraudulent, as you claim, then you're making the lie out to be worse yet, because you are saying that they are purposely postponing the Messianic Era by 160+ years. That correlates with I think what Ben Zion Wachholder proposed, that Jewish leaders purposely calculated the 70 weeks in a way that would postpone the expectation of the arrival of the Messiah, only to have that proposed altered date coincide with Bar Kokba's revolt. Pardon me if I'm not remembering his paper correctly.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you. But if 5776 is counting back from the future, and they are knowingly postponing the future by 160+ years, that's how I understand your comment.

Regardless of the date one uses for creation, 5776 AM is still based on a misinterpretation of the 70 weeks, which misinterpretation resulted in introducing an error of 160+ years, and which led the Talmud to suggest that Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes in Ezra 6:14 were three names for the same person. It's high time that this glaring error be corrected.

 

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

As for the meaning of Daniel, need I point out even Christian authorities are not agreed on who the prophecy refers to or when he will appear? Many Christians in fact understand Daniel 9:26 as a prophecy of the Antichrist, not of Jesus. Since in the original language Daniel calls him "a messiah" and not The Messiah. I agree, however, Jesus likely is the one to whom Daniel refers.

I think this is incorrect. It would be rare that a Christian would think that Messiah the prince is the antichrist. Those who see the antichrist in vs. 27 see the antichrist referred to as the prince in the phrase "people of the prince that shall come," not in the phrase "Messiah the prince." I think that position is wrong, but that's the typical futurist position.

[Samie]

7 hours ago, Pickle said:

Yet Jn. 5:29 speaks of two resurrections, one of life and one of damnation, and 1 Th. 4 puts the resurrection of life at the second coming. Rev. 20 then puts the resurrection of damnation 1000 years after the resurrection of the blessed and holy.

Are the resurrection events of John 5:28, 29 the same resurrection events of Dan 12:1, 2?

Daniel 12:1-2 NIV

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 NIV

28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 

29 and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Seems like they are the same, to me.

Jesus said that when He comes again He will reward every man according to his works. See Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12. This seems to indicate that people need to be present so they could be rewarded. Hence all in the graves would have to be resurrected at His Coming, the righteous first and then the wicked in quick succession. This explains why every eye will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7). This verse says that the wicked Roman soldiers who pierced Him hanging on the cross will be among those to see Him come. Hence, both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the 2nd Coming, and together with those still alive during the 2nd Coming, all born into this world will be present to receive his own reward. The righteous are rewarded with life eternal, and ushered to heaven where, on the sea of glass, those victorious over the beast will sing their song of victory.  But the wicked will be made to suffer the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues. See Rev 15:1 - 16:1.

The terminating event of the 7 last plagues is the battle of Armageddon. At the close of this battle, all wicked will be slain, except for the beast and his false prophet who will be both thrown alive into the lake of fire. See Rev 19: 20, 21. Then Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit, bound there for 1000 years. At the end of 1000 years, all wicked will be resurrected and along with Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:1-15.

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Are the resurrection events of John 5:28, 29 the same resurrection events of Dan 12:1, 2?

It certainly sounds like they are, but there is a key difference. Dan. 12:1, 2 says that "many" shall awake, while John 5:28, 29 says "all" shall come forth.

The explanation for the difference is that there is a special resurrection of wicked that arise to see Christ coming, but that group doesn't include all the wicked. Similarly, there is a special resurrection of righteous. Seventh-day Adventism generally has view Rev. 14:13 as indicating that that group includes those who have died in the faith of the third angel's message. Thus, some of the righteous and wicked dead are raised so that they can see Him coming, while the rest of the righteous are raised after He arrives here, and the rest of the wicked aren't resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

[Samie]

54 minutes ago, Pickle said:

It certainly sounds like they are, but there is a key difference. Dan. 12:1, 2 says that "many" shall awake, while John 5:28, 29 says "all" shall come forth.

Ok, so Jesus was saying in John 5:28, 29 that "all" shall come forth.

What time period is involved in this coming forth of "all" and who comprise the "all" that shall come forth, according to Jesus? I think the answer is in v28:

KJV John 5:28-29:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Quite simple: Time period is the coming hour. In that hour, "all" in the graves shall hear and shall come forth. The "all" who heard and came forth is composed of those who have done good and those who have done evil. With those still alive at the 2nd Coming, every one is present to each receive his own reward, as I explained in an earlier post.

If only the righteous are resurrected at the 2nd Coming, how could that be compatible with what Jesus Himself said that when He returns He will reward every man according to what each has done?

Also, if verse 29 finds fulfillment in two different events separated by a thousand years, when will v28 find fulfillment? I mean, when will the hour (singular, from the Greek w[ra hora) occur where all – not just the righteous – in the graves shall hear his voice?

[Pickle]

16 minutes ago, Samie said:

If only the righteous are resurrected at the 2nd Coming, how could that be compatible with what Jesus Himself said that when He returns He will reward every man according to what each has done?

Also, if verse 29 finds fulfillment in two different events separated by a thousand years, when will v28 find fulfillment? I mean, when will the hour (singular, from the Greek w[ra hora) occur where all – not just the righteous – in the graves shall hear his voice?

It's a good question. But note that often prophecies in the OT speak of the first and second comings as if they are a single event. Thus it would not be unprecedented to talk about the rewarding of the righteous before the 1000 years and the rewarding of the wicked after the 1000 years as if it were a single event.

Isaiah 24:22  And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

The context in the chapter is clear. The second coming has just occurred and the earth is now utterly empty. What I learned recently is that "visited" means "judged." Thus, this verse supports the idea that the wicked are visited or judged or rewarded after the many days of the 1000 years.

Otherwise, what is the reward the wicked receive at the beginning of the 1000 years? Certainly not hell fire. Mt. 25 says that the goats will be told to go into everlasting fire. That doesn't happen until after the 1000 years.

Yet Mt. 25 speaks of the rewarding of the sheep and goats as if it is a single event, and does not indicate that that single event is a little more than 1000 years long. I don't have a problem with that. That's just the way God has revealed some of these things, including the first and second comings of Christ in the OT.

[Samie]

Thanks for the explanation, Pickle.  I have many things to say about what you have just explained, but that would clutter our current discussion with too many other issues. I suggest you should have included in your explanation the verses where Christ said He will reward every man when He returns. Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12. I suggest this because John 5:28, 29 are likewise the words of Jesus Himself.

Also you forgot to address v28 on the coming hour where all in the graves shall hear His voice and come out. I am of the impression that all in the graves means simply what was written: all in the graves - both righteous and wicked.

I will comment later on what you have just posted. Let's first discuss the current issue to its logical conclusion.

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Samie]

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

In Judaism, the Jewish Messiah is called Moshiach, a term meaning "Comforter." In Christian scripture we are told that the Comforter, when he comes, being filled with the Holy Spirit, will testify of Jesus and not of himself. That would seem to give him a subordinate role to Jesus, at least as far as world community is concerned. Time will tell.

The English word "messiah" is from the Greek Messi,aj Messias which is from the Hebrew x;yvim' mashiyach.  In Luke 4:18, 19, Jesus was reading from the prophet Isaiah:

 ^KJV Isaiah 61:1-2  1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;  ² To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.

 Jesus said that the above Scripture verses found fulfillment that day He was reading them in the synagogue. Interestingly enough, prophet Isaiah records another verse that tells of one being sent:

Isaiah 48:16   ¹⁶ Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Looks to me like, Jesus really was sent for a special mission as revealed in His Hebrew name h['Wvy> yeshuw`ah from where the Greeks derived the name VIhsou/j Iesous. The Hebrew name h['Wvy> literally means salvation as reflected in what the angel Gabriel told Joseph:

 

^NKJ Matthew 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

 

[Martn]

[phkrause]

1 minute ago, MCBGM said:

The individuals you name are not Jews. They may have been Jewish at one time, but right now they are not. Right now they are Christians.

Yes they are. Per the Jews themselves, once a Jew always a Jew!! Especially if there Mothers were Jewish.

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, MCBGM said:

I view it in light of Jewish scripture: Torah first. Prophets second. Writings last.

That said, Jesus is the Christian Messiah. The Messiah of the Gentiles, I believe.

Thanks for explaining this to me.  While I respect your view, as a Christian I (obviously) give as much authority to NT writings as I do the Torah and the Prophets.  Paul said that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ¹⁷ so that the servant of God^[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Tim. 3:16) He was a Pharisee among Pharisees.  I'll grant you the point that when He said this, the only scripture that existed was the Torah and the Prophets.

Many modern Christians discount the Torah and the Prophets in favor of the New Testament; which allegedly put an end to  OT Law.  This is a mistake.  The Torah and the Prophets contain the all of tenets of the NT; including the concept of grace and salvation.  Even Job believed in a coming Redeemer:

"I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. (Job 19:25)

I ask you this next question out of pure curiosity (not a challenge) - How do you as a Jew interpret Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12?  Isn't this a perfect description of Jesus - coming as a suffering Messiah (to pay the penalty for the sins of mankind) and receiving a reward of the authority and power over everything (the King Messiah)?  As a Christian, I think Jesus is both.  I believe that He is also the Redeemer of Christians, Gentiles, and Jews.  In fact, I believe that Christians (in a way) owe their salvation to the Jews.  Paul says that we as Gentiles were "grafted in". You, as a Jew, are part of the original vine or tree.  Jesus was a Jew to the end.  There was no such thing as a "Christian" until after Jesus died.

[Martn]