Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Something happens which initiates the last vial sequence, which will completely destroy all life on planet earth. 

That "something" in my opinion is the cosmic disturbances described in Joel 2:30-31: "I will show wonders in the heavens  and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.   The sun will be turned to darkness  and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." (Also see Joel 3:15-16);

Matt:24:29-31: "Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened,  and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,  and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.  Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

See also Mark 13:24-26, Acts2:19-20, Rev 8:12.

  All these verses and many more prophecy cosmic disturbances immediately before the great and terrible Day of the Lord; which will include the seven bowls/vials of God's wrath.  I believe this could be caused by a meteor or strike on the planet.  I'm grateful that the church will be taken off of the planet prior to the wrath of God falling on the unrepentant!  In my opinion, this "pre-wrath (NOT pre-trib) rapture" will be the close of probation.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/7/2016 at 0:10 PM, MCBGM said:

God, the Great Spirit, himself has come to the Jews, whereas all other peoples must go to God.

Here I would disagree.  I do not believe God the Father ever came to anyone on this earth UNTIL His Son incarnated.  Then He did "draw" men to Jesus. 

"There is one Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ."  This mediation began when Eve ate the fruit.  When Adam sinned, the human race was "cut off" from God the Father - UNTIL His Son incarnated.  The LORD who visited Abraham, the LORD who spoke with Moses, the Commander of the LORD's army who appeared to Joshua, the LORD who appeared to Ezekiel, was the pre-incarnate son of God.  Jesus said, "No man has seen the Father." 

The Son of God was the "spirit" which convicted human beings of right and wrong, up to the incarnation of the Christ.  After the Son of God was "glorified" by His Father, He then poured out His own spirit presence.   

Personally, I do AGREE that "God is spirit".  I am not a trinitarian.  I believe that God became a "Father" when He beget a Son in His "express image".  I worship God the Father as supreme.  And I worship Jesus BECAUSE God has told us to worship His Son.  I do not worship a third divine Being. 

[Pickle]

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Pickle,

You and Andrews University are entitled to your opinions.  Others of us are entitled to their opinions.  I am not uncomfortable with having different opinions on things people a lot smarter than me can't even agree on.

Can you cite anyone who says that "week" in Dan. 9 means "seven"? I am referring to the one week, not the 70, 7, or 62 weeks. According to the one paper, I think everyone is pretty much agreed that "week" means "week," not "seven."

[Pickle]

10 hours ago, MCBGM said:

To this day, the child of a "virgin" remains excluded among Jews in numerous ways. Such a child is called a mamzer and can only marry another mamzer. Their children likewise are excluded, for generations. It is never a good thing. Jesus really did humble himself, to the very base of society.

There is only one example of virgin birth that I know of. Children born out of wedlock would be an entirely different matter.

 

10 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Solomon was the next in line, the first having died. Only if the first had died could the next ascend as King. (I did mention that.) There were no exceptions to this procedure --in determining Kingship-- in all the history of Judah.

Property rights, as in the daughters' case, never had anything to do with it.

Adonijah was next in line, not Solomon. Adonijah was born while David reigned in Hebron. Solomon was born while David reigned in Jerusalem. Thus, you are incorrect that the kingship was always passed to the eldest living son.

I didn't say that property rights ever had anything to do with it. I was merely saying that that story suggests a way to handle a case of virgin birth.

[Pickle]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the last 3.5 years (1260 days) of persecution will LEAD UP TO the Second Coming in glory.  (See past posts.)

The persecution of Daniel 11:33,35, is NOT CONNECTED to a specific time period.  It is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days.  Though we have seen, and are seeing severe persecution of Christians by Muslims, all over the world - now. 

I believe the 1260 days will see the trumpet judgments, except trumpet #7 - the "last trump", which will be the VIAL PLAGUES.   

The 7 vial plagues (resulting in the WORST "time of trouble" ever seen on earth) will be "poured out" on the DAY that Christ returns.  ("Therefore her plagues will come in one day.")  Something happens which initiates the last vial sequence, which will completely destroy all life on planet earth. 

The redeemed will be translated off this earth before the vial plagues are poured out. 

"It is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days."

OK. Then you believe that Daniel is not unsealed until the second coming? And that Dan. 11:40 ff happen at the end of the 1260 days, which is the second coming?

Then I'm left to wonder why you think you can understand these passages if you think they are sealed until the second coming. I suspect that you have not understood the points I was trying to make.

Here's another one: In Matthew the tribulation is cut short, after which the sun and moon are darkened, after which the stars fall, which heavenly signs tell us His coming is near, even at the door, one step away as it were, but definitely not here. The signs Jesus referred to in these words I'm quoting tell us His coming is near, not here.

If you have the 1260 days lead us up to the second coming, then the signs after those days would be signs that He is here rather than near, and that contradicts the passage.

[Pickle]

8 hours ago, MCBGM said:

As evidenced by Salathiel and Zorobabel (descendants of Jeconiah --through Levirate marriage, which accounts for the differences in their parentage as given by Matthew and Luke), Mary was also a descendant of Jeconiah (not just Joseph, her cousin), making Jesus indeed a biological descendant of that cursed line. Luke 3:27 & Matthew 1:12.

So you are saying that it is only through Levirate marriage that these two are descended from Jechoniah? If you allow for a non-literal descent to exclude someone from being eligible for the throne, why insist that eligibility is only determined by literal descent?

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Pickle said:

"It is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days."

OK. Then you believe that Daniel is not unsealed until the second coming? And that Dan. 11:40 ff happen at the end of the 1260 days, which is the second coming?

Then I'm left to wonder why you think you can understand these passages if you think they are sealed until the second coming. I suspect that you have not understood the points I was trying to make.

Pickle,  you're just mocking me. 

 

NO Pickle.  I believe the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will be fully "unsealed" at the START of the 1260 days. 

I believe the 1260 days WILL BE "the time of the end". 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Pickle said:

Here's another one: In Matthew the tribulation is cut short, after which the sun and moon are darkened, after which the stars fall, which heavenly signs tell us His coming is near, even at the door, one step away as it were, but definitely not here. The signs Jesus referred to in these words I'm quoting tell us His coming is near, not here.

If you have the 1260 days lead us up to the second coming, then the signs after those days would be signs that He is here rather than near, and that contradicts the passage.

Matthew 24:29-30  "But immediately after [not years or centuries after] the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (ASV)

The events in the heavens are the signs of His approach.  Just AFTER the heavenly bodies are moved and changed by the approach of Christ and His angels, He actually appears.  He appears almost "immediately" after the signs begin.  The judgment has handed down the decision giving dominion to Christ and His saints.  Christ has left heaven to descend to earth, when these signs happen. 

In Revelation 6, immediately after these signs "the sky receded as a scroll" and "the great day of His wrath has come". 

Revelation 6:12 "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. 14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand" (ASV).

The "persecution of those days" ENDS with the resurrection of the "two witnesses".  For 3.5 years they are persecuted, then finally killed.  3.5 days later, [not years or centuries later] they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven at the voice of God.  At the same moment there is a horrendous earthquake, and the 7th trumpet sounds, with voices in Heaven announcing that "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ." 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Pickle said:

Can you cite anyone who says that "week" in Dan. 9 means "seven"? I am referring to the one week, not the 70, 7, or 62 weeks. According to the one paper, I think everyone is pretty much agreed that "week" means "week," not "seven."

Strong's Concordance:

07620 [;Wbv' shabuwa` {shaw-boo'-ah} or [;buv' shabua` {shaw-boo'-ah} also (fem.) shebu`ah {sheb-oo-aw'}
Meaning:  1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week 1a) period of seven days, a week 1a1) Feast of Weeks 1b) heptad, seven (of years)

NIV actually translates it as "sevens" or "seven" in Daniel 9. 

Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven" (NIV).

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/8/2016 at 0:31 PM, MCBGM said:

You want a single text. But it isn't a single text which shows this. It is all of them together. In all the references to succession of the Kings of Judah, no evidence exists of any of the many and ever-growing lists of exceptions proposed by Christians. There simply is no precedent with regard to Kingship, in all of Jewish history, for the exceptions Christians expect Jews to accept.

Furthermore, God specifically told King David that the Messiah would come from his own seed --the male seed (Y DNA, as science has now confirmed)-- which cannot be passed through any female line. Women only inherit and pass on the female seed (X DNA).

God also told David that this line would not be passed over in favor of another, as God had done with Saul, regardless of any disobedience. Yet Christians expect Jews now to accept a spiritual messiah in place of the one promised to David.

If we spiritualize the prophecies away, then we make it possible for anyone to claim to be the Messiah. Which is precisely what has happened. And precisely why Jews must continue not to permit such explanations as valid.

Ahhhh.  So you're saying that anyone born of a "virgin birth" - without the male "seed" - Y chromosome - CANNOT BE the Messiah.  Well - that certainly eliminates Jesus Christ.  

Then why - in Genesis 3, did the LORD say that the promised one - the one to crush the serpent's head - would be the seed of a woman? 

Genesis 3:15 [spoken to the Serpent] "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

 

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, MCBGM said:

That may be true. But only for those people who need a mediator between themselves and God.

All people need a mediator/savior/redeemer.  The question is whether or not they realize that they need one.

2 hours ago, MCBGM said:

It does not say Jesus is mediator between God and all men.

But Jesus is the Mediator between God and all who seek Him.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, MCBGM said:

That may be true. But only for those people who need a mediator between themselves and God.

It does not say Jesus is mediator between God and all men.

Rachel:  "For there is one mediator between God and man (meaning mankind), the man Jesus the Christ." 

Jews, unlike other peoples, do not need a mediator between themselves and God.

Rachel:  Of course they DO.  What ROLE do you think Moses filled??  That of mediator.  Moses was a TYPE of Christ. 

Even Paul acknowledges this. if you read him in the original Greek:

God, he says, justifies the Jews by (ek, meaning directly) their faith, and the Christians through (dia, meaning indirectly) their faith. Romans 3:30.

Paul said "all have sinned".  That would include Jews. No?  With no Temple, no priesthood, and no sacrifices, how can Jews then receive atonement?? 

Paul also said, "By works of the law no flesh shall be justified."  So - if they cannot be justified by "good works", how can Jews receive atonement??

Not getting the whole "by" or "through" thing...   It still comes down to faith. 

Do you mean that Jews just naturally HAVE FAITH - without any help from outside of themselves, and Christians don't.  Then why were soooooooo many Israelites obviously "cut off" during the journey from Egypt to Canaan.  Why were sooooo many lost to idolatry?

 

[Pickle]

17 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

NO Pickle.  I believe the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will be fully "unsealed" at the START of the 1260 days. 

I believe the 1260 days WILL BE "the time of the end". 

But that's not what you just indicated.

 

On 4/8/2016 at 11:59 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The persecution of Daniel 11:33,35, is NOT CONNECTED to a specific time period.  It is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days.

See what you said? You said the persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35 "is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days." That's what you said.

Daniel 11:35  And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end:

That persecution lasts "even to the time of the end."

So I wasn't mocking you at all. I was just taking what you said at face value, in light of the specifications of the text, which specifications I had already pointed out, and regarding which you had not shown me that I was mistaken.

Feel free to show me now how I am mistaken. However, if you cannot, note that your position contradicts Scripture. Dan. 11:33, 35 tells us that the time of the end begins after the persecution, not at the beginning of the persecution.

[Pickle]

17 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Matthew 24:29-30  "But immediately after [not years or centuries after] the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (ASV)

The events in the heavens are the signs of His approach.  Just AFTER the heavenly bodies are moved and changed by the approach of Christ and His angels, He actually appears.  He appears almost "immediately" after the signs begin.  The judgment has handed down the decision giving dominion to Christ and His saints.  Christ has left heaven to descend to earth, when these signs happen. 

In Revelation 6, immediately after these signs "the sky receded as a scroll" and "the great day of His wrath has come". 

Revelation 6:12 "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. 14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand" (ASV).

The "persecution of those days" ENDS with the resurrection of the "two witnesses".  For 3.5 years they are persecuted, then finally killed.  3.5 days later, [not years or centuries later] they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven at the voice of God.  At the same moment there is a horrendous earthquake, and the 7th trumpet sounds, with voices in Heaven announcing that "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ." 

Again, your position contradicts the words of the passage.

Matthew 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Your position makes those events signs that He is here, rather than near.

The persecution of 538-1798 AD was cut short about 25 years. 1780 is immediately after 1773. It isn't centuries after.

Matthew 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Note that Jesus' words imply a passage of time between the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars. 53 years occurred between the Dark Day of May 19, 1780, and the falling of the stars of Nov. 13, 1833. Jesus' words were literally fulfilled, since the same generation saw all the signs that tell us His coming is near, even at the door.

You are correct that there is nothing stated in Rev. 6 between the falling of the stars and the rolling together of the heavens. But Mat. 24's wording lets us know that there is a passage of time in there, even as there was a passage of time between the Dark Day of 1780 and the falling of the stars of 1833.

"At the same moment there is a horrendous earthquake, and the 7th trumpet sounds ...."

Not sure where you got that. The passage puts the resurrection of the two witnesses during the 6th trumpet, not the 7th trumpet. And to insist that the 3.5 days must be 3.5 days begs the question, since one must first prove that the day-year principle does not apply. But:

Revelation 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain names of men seven thousand:

The Greek literally says that it was the names that were killed, not the men. The French Revolution abolished titles of nobility. You tell me how your futurist interpretation allows for the killing of names in an earthquake. Tell me how a name gets killed.

[Pickle]

17 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Strong's Concordance:

07620 [;Wbv' shabuwa` {shaw-boo'-ah} or [;buv' shabua` {shaw-boo'-ah} also (fem.) shebu`ah {sheb-oo-aw'}
Meaning:  1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week 1a) period of seven days, a week 1a1) Feast of Weeks 1b) heptad, seven (of years)

NIV actually translates it as "sevens" or "seven" in Daniel 9. 

Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven" (NIV).

It's unfortunate that the NIV departs from the text in many instances, sometimes inserting the translators' theology into the passages. Heb. 10:1 is the first place I noticed where that happens, where the NIV translates the verse as if there was no Greek word for "having" in the text.

But thank you for correcting me. I was mistaken that there is general agreement regarding the meaning of "week" in Dan. 9:27. However, page 198 (the second page) of http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=886&journal=1&type=pdf explains why the NIV rendering is "indefensible."

Read also footnote 3. That footnote states that the word in question in the Bible always means a period of seven days. Can you provide an example to the contrary from any passage other than Dan. 9? If not, then that is a tremendous weakness for the interpretation that the "week" of Dan. 9:27 is something other than a period of seven days.

[Pickle]

16 hours ago, MCBGM said:

That's not what I said. At all.

It merely explains their difference in parentage between Matthew and Luke. Not their paternal bloodline from Jeconiah, which remained the same regardless which brother was named as their father and grandfather.

Yet:

On 4/8/2016 at 0:22 PM, MCBGM said:

As evidenced by Salathiel and Zorobabel (descendants of Jeconiah --through Levirate marriage ...)

It certainly sounds like you were saying Salathiel was a descendant of Jechoniah through Levirate marriage, and you had earlier stated that descendants of Jechoniah are disqualified from taking the throne.

I read some discussion out there on this topic. Some claim that Levirate marriage made Jesus a legal son of Jechoniah, whcih gives Him the right to the throne, while His not being a literal son of Jechoniah allows the prophecy to be fulfilled that Jechoniah would, allegedly, never have a literal son take the throne. That sounds interesting.

Some explanations out there also invoke this idea. A fellow married, had a son, and then died. The widow married someone from a different family and had another son. You then end up with two brothers, half-brothers, of very different lineages. A Levirate marriage involving the one half-brother marrying the widow of the other half-brother would result in a son being literally of one lineage and legally of the other lineage. I found that interesting as well.

[Pickle]

15 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Jews, unlike other peoples, do not need a mediator between themselves and God.

And yet for centuries the Jews had the sanctuary with the priests and high priest. I don't see any way to say that the priests and high priest did not serve in some sort of mediatorial role for Israel.

That mediatorial role is, I think, well represented by Abraham interceding for Sodom, and Moses interceding for Israel. In both cases the mediator seeks to avert the threatened destruction.

If one could say that Jews have never since Moses done anything that could prompt the threat of destruction by God, then we could conclude that they don't need a mediator. But even Josephus the Jewish historian declared that the destruction of Jerusalem was due to the sins of the nation.

Thus, I think your claim is without biblical support, since the Bible shows that Moses engaged in a mediatorial role for Israel, and Jews have sinned just like everyone else, including doing the types of things that prompted the threat of destruction that Abraham and Moses sought to avert.

[Alchemy]

On April 8, 2016 at 0:10 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I cannot agree Alchemy.  The "woman" - "harlot" rides on the Beast.  SHE is not the BEAST.  And HER name is "Babylon".  Personally, I believe she is the system of false worship, which began at Ancient Babylon, under Nimrod, and spread to the whole world.  

If we follow the sixth and seventh plagues in Revelation 16, we have the three fold union established in the sixth plague leading up to Armageddon and in the seventh plague Babylon is called out by name as being remembered of God at His Second Coming. I believe this to be quite clear.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Pickle said:

Again, your position contradicts the words of the passage.

Matthew 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Your position makes those events signs that He is here, rather than near.

The persecution of 538-1798 AD was cut short about 25 years. 1780 is immediately after 1773. It isn't centuries after.

Matthew 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Note that Jesus' words imply a passage of time between the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars. 53 years occurred between the Dark Day of May 19, 1780, and the falling of the stars of Nov. 13, 1833. Jesus' words were literally fulfilled, since the same generation saw all the signs that tell us His coming is near, even at the door.

You are correct that there is nothing stated in Rev. 6 between the falling of the stars and the rolling together of the heavens. But Mat. 24's wording lets us know that there is a passage of time in there, even as there was a passage of time between the Dark Day of 1780 and the falling of the stars of 1833.

"At the same moment there is a horrendous earthquake, and the 7th trumpet sounds ...."

Not sure where you got that. The passage puts the resurrection of the two witnesses during the 6th trumpet, not the 7th trumpet. And to insist that the 3.5 days must be 3.5 days begs the question, since one must first prove that the day-year principle does not apply. But:

Revelation 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain names of men seven thousand:

The Greek literally says that it was the names that were killed, not the men. The French Revolution abolished titles of nobility. You tell me how your futurist interpretation allows for the killing of names in an earthquake. Tell me how a name gets killed.

If someone is "at the door", has he not arrived at your house? 

I do not agree with the whole 1798 teaching.  I do not agree with the SDA application of the "falling of the stars" Nov, 13, 1833.  That same star shower has come repeatedly since then.  And there have been many blood moons and solar eclipses since. 

Pickle,

There are folks here at CA who disagree with me, whom I still enjoy dialoging with.  I do not enjoy dialoging with you.  Your tone is very argumentative and dismissive.  Saying to me, "Your position contradicts Scripture."  No Pickle - it just contradicts your interpretation of Scripture.