Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Pickle]

38 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When was the command issued “to restore and to build Jerusalem” ?  

        Do we look to the command issued anciently by Cyrus or Artaxerxes, which freed the Jews to return to their land, and to rebuild their Temple after the captivity in Babylon?  If this prophecy is for “the latter days” or “the time of the end”, then why look to this ancient command? The prophet was told to “shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end” (Dan 12:4).  The messenger said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan 12:9).  What makes us think we can clearly understand this prophecy - yet?

1. We know from Dan. 11:33, 35; 12:5-7 that Daniel is unsealed and the time of the end begins at the end of the 1260 days.

2. We know from Dan. 2 and 8 that not everything in the book of Daniel is sealed.

3. We know from Dan. 8 that the 2300 evening-morning are definitely sealed until the time of the end.

4. The 70 weeks were never sealed. There is nothing about them that hasn't always been able to be understood. What I mean is that there was a full and complete explanation given in the chapter itself. Just like everyone could understand the ram, goat, first horn, four horns, and little horn of Dan. 8, everyone could understand the 70 weeks, which is quite unlike the 2300 days.

5. Ezra 6:14 speaks of one decree issued by Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes.

6. Isaiah 44-45 specifically says that Cyrus would build the city.

7. Isaiah 1:26 predicts that the judges would be restored.

8. Dan. 9 when speaking of the decree refers to building and restoring. If one looks for something that refers to judging, the Hebrew word translated "walls" or "moats" is the key. That word refers to the restoration of the judiciary, which is what the decree of Ezra 7 did, that of Artaxerxes' 7th year.

9. Maimonides says that they began a new sabbatical-year count after Ezra arrived, and it is true that the fall of 457 BC marks the beginning of the first year of a sabbatical cycle. Christ then died right in the middle of the 70th sabbatical cycle after that.

10. If you put the 70 weeks into the future, then you have to explain how the 70 weeks explain the 2300 evening-morning. Gabriel was told in Dan. 8 to explain the mar'eh to Daniel. When Gabriel got to the point of explaining the 2300 evening-morning, he said, "The mar'eh of the evening and the morning which was told is true." That overwhelmed Daniel and he fainted. When Gabriel returned in Dan. 9 he told Daniel, "Consider the mar'eh." Thus, the 70 weeks have to explain the mar'eh of the 2300 evening-morning.

[hch]

27 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is the FINAL period of persecution, leading up to the Second Coming!!! 

Daniel 7:25 (time, times, and a part)

Daniel 12:7 (time, times, and half a time)

Revelation 11:2 (42 months)

Revelation 11:3 (1260 days)

Revelation 12:6 (1260 days)

Revelation 13:5 (42 months)

All these passages are speaking about the SAME TIME PERIOD!!

My Bible study indicates that they are the same length of time but not "the SAME TIME PERIOD"

And please do not forget Revelation 12:14

Christian Regards

[Pickle]

32 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The 1260 day period ("time, times and a part" / 42 months) ENDS when the judgment of Daniel 7:9-10 awards the kingdom to Christ and his "saints". 

Daniel 7:21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom." (NAU)

This is the FINAL period of persecution, leading up to the Second Coming!!! 

Daniel 7:25 (time, times, and a part)

Daniel 12:7 (time, times, and half a time)

Revelation 11:2 (42 months)

Revelation 11:3 (1260 days)

Revelation 12:6 (1260 days)

Revelation 13:5 (42 months)

All these passages are speaking about the SAME TIME PERIOD!!

At the END of the 42 months of Revelation Cpt Eleven, the 7th trumpet sounds.  WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ."  (Rev. 11:15). 

The "two witnesses" testify for 42 months, during which they are persecuted.  Right at the END of the 42 months, the two witnesses are killed (or a death decree is issued).  They remain dead for 3.5 days, and are then resurrected.  They hear the "voice" of God calling them, and they and ascend to heaven "in a cloud" as their persecutors watch.  Immediately there is a great earthquake, and the 7th trumpet sounds.  THIS is the SECOND COMING!!!

It seems to me that you may be begging the question some.

For one thing, you have the two witnesses ascending to heaven at the second coming, but you have that occur before the end of the second woe, and thus before the seventh trumpet, since the second woe includes most of Rev. 11.

I take it that you then have the time of trouble of Dan. 12:1 being the final persecution as well? If so, when is Dan. 11:33, 35 referring to? Dan. 11:40 is after the many days of persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35, and thus Dan. 11:40 occurs at the end of that period of persecution. Dan. 12:1 must therefore be after that.

Remember that the 1290 days of Dan. 12 start ticking in Dan. 11:31.

The only way to make sense of it all that I can see is to have the 1260 days cover the persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35, with Dan. 12:40 occurring at their close, with Dan. 12:1 occurring at the second coming.

[hch]

59 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When was the command issued “to restore and to build Jerusalem” ?  

That's a fascinating study. While studying the words in that text carefully  notice that the translators took liberties with the translation. As I read it the final decree was on May 31, 1998

food for thought

Christian regards

[Pickle]

33 minutes ago, hch said:

Pickle,

the example you give is like the last one you gave that I answered. John did not write in English. Consider the word translated wondered:

Revelation 13:3  "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered [G2296] after the beast."

G2296 From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire: - admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.

Revelation 13:3  "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world is to wonder [G2296] after the beast."

Revelation 13:3 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)  "And I saw one of his heads as-if [a] having been slain to death. And his wound of [c] death was cured. And the whole earth was caused-to-marvel [while following] after the beast."

Revelation 13:3Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) " And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast."

Revelation 13:3J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS) "One of its heads appeared to have been wounded to death but the mortal wound had healed."

Revelation 13:3Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE) followed=opisō

ὀπίσω (opisō)

Strong: G3694

GK: G3958

can function as an improper prep., behind, after, at one’s back, Mt. 4:10; Lk. 7:38; Rev. 1:10; τὰ ὀπίσω, the things which are behind, Phil. 3:13; ὀπίσω and εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω, back, backwards, Mt. 24:18; Mk. 13:16; Lk. 9:62, when an improper prep., takes the gen.

Matthew 4:19 "And he said to them, “Come, follow (opisō | ὀπίσω | improper prep-gen) me, and I will make you fishers of men.”"

As you can see, your argument is very weak.

Christian regards

Henry, Greek has present, aorist, future, imperfect, and perfect tenses. Outside of the indicative mood, the time of the action is lost, but the type of action is retained.

I'm saying that I know something about how Greek works. "Wondered" is an aorist indicative. The aorist tense therefore does denote the time of action, and that action is in the past. It's basic stuff when it comes to Greek.

It isn't my argument that is weak. I presented you with a solid reason why the 6th king must be in John's own day. Regardless of how many times I've asked, you still have not given me any reasons why the extended conversation of Rev. 17 must be dated in any other day than John's day. If you had made an argument, then it would be weak. Since I can't yet identify an argument, your argument appears to be non-existent.

[JoeMo]

I'm bowing out of further contributing to this thread.  You guys are getting in over my head.   Anything else I say will simply be repetition of what I've already said; or sound completely illiterate and ignorant to guys like you.  Adios.

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:56 PM, Pickle said:

Note that in John's day the first 5 were already fallen. I think a solid point is that the 5 have to be fallen in John's day, or else we have no solid way to date when the 5 are fallen.

Pickle,

Here is the text from Rev 17 that answers your question from Rev 11

I reviewed your postings and see that your conclusions are based on faulty assumptions.

Note Rev 17:1  "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication..."

Who is the angel with the vial?

Rev 16:1  "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."  Is that supposed to be in John's day? It is present tense "Go and pour out the vials". The endtime 7 last plagues

In Revelation 17 the angel is showing John the woman, the kings of the earth, and the beast that are about to receive God's judgment because the 7 last plagues are about to be poured upon them (present tense). The 7-plaguse were not poured out on the 6-heads in John's day.

The kings of the earth could not have committed fornication [past tense] with the woman if they were already fallen when she came on the scene.

Christian regards

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I'm bowing out of further contributing to this thread.  You guys are getting in over my head.   Anything else I say will simply be repetition of what I've already said; or sound completely illiterate and ignorant to guys like you.  Adios.

Don't feel that you can't comment or ask a question. One problem in the academic world is that once you get a reputation, and if you're talking over people's heads, they just take your word for it, even if you're dead wrong.

Certainly I wouldn't expect Henry to know all about Greek tenses, and of course my comment sounds less than intelligible, but you have to start somewhere.

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, hch said:

Note Rev 17:1  "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication..."

Who is the angel with the vial?

Rev 16:1  "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."  Is that supposed to be in John's day? It is present tense "Go and pour out the vials". The endtime 7 last plagues

First of all, Rev. 16:1 is a scene, not an extended conversational explanation like what we have in Dan. 11; Rev. 11; 17. Second, "heard" is past tense. Of course John should use present tense within a quote that he said he heard in the past. No problem here.

1 hour ago, hch said:

In Revelation 17 the angel is showing John the woman, the kings of the earth, and the beast that are about to receive God's judgment because the 7 last plagues are about to be poured upon them (present tense). The 7-plaguse were not poured out on the 6-heads in John's day.

"Showing"? The whole question is the timing of the conversation, not the timing of the showing. We're talking about the timing of the explanation after the showing.

And your first quote, note that Rev. 17 contains now "showing" of a judgment on the great whore. That comes in Rev. 18.

1 hour ago, hch said:

The kings of the earth could not have committed fornication [past tense] with the woman if they were already fallen when she came on the scene.`

I don't really understand your connection here, since there is nothing that says that the 7 kings have to be the very ones that committed the fornication.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Pickle said:

Don't feel that you can't comment or ask a question.

I have difficulty responding to you because you ask me things that are (honestly) over my head.  As far as hch goes, I haven't a clue where he's coming from.  I can't even fathom how he has arrived at his conclusions.

Salvation shouldn't be as difficult as this thread is beginning to make it sound.  Jesus said His yoke was easy and His burden light.  An easy yoke shouldn't have to include being a master of theology, Hebrew, and Greek.  I am not a "lone ranger" in my ideas and personal beliefs.  I fellowship mostly with non-traditional SDAs (including many on this forum), Messianic Jews, and charismatics.  There are people in all of these churches who believe very similarly to me.  That doesn't mean we're right or wrong; it just means we believe the same; and our minor differences should not keep us from worshipping together.  We all believe the same concerning the Deity and the role of Jesus and salvation by grace.  That is the gospel.

I'm off topic here; so again - adios.

[hch]

15 hours ago, Pickle said:

And so I concluded correctly what your position is, even though you said something different. What you said was that there are prophetic time prophecies after 1844, but you don't believe there are, as you here make clear. Similarly, it is wrong for you to use EGW's words to say something she did not intend to mean.

You did not answer my question as to when the papacy will receive a blasphemous mouth which it didn't already have. Please do so.

Pickle,

I was very clear "Time prophecy continues in Revelation after 1844, but not as a day for a year."

John-Paul II spoke blasphemy as I pointed out and Just before Satan personates Christ, Satan will personate John-Paul II at which time Satan will blasphemy God.

Christian regards

[hch]

11 hours ago, Pickle said:

I don't really understand your connection here, since there is nothing that says that the 7 kings have to be the very ones that committed the fornication.

Pickle,

You have identified the problem.

James 1:5  "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Christian regards
 

[hch]

15 hours ago, Pickle said:

Remember that the 1290 days of Dan. 12 start ticking in Dan. 11:31.

Pickle,

For a brief moment, I thought that this was something upon which we could agree. 

But as I reread 11:31, it is also clarification of events between 11:21-22 relating to the arms of a flood.

The daily is the continual or in this case, the one who continues. Thus the 1290-days began on 11/20/01 and the one who had continued was taken away 4/2/05. And the blessing came to those who understood on 5/17/05. 

But I will leave that to your study without further comment at this time.

Dan 11:30  "For the ships of Chittim [Iran's navy attacks America's aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf] shall come against him [Obama]: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant [America's constitution and God's Ten Commandments]: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

  "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan 11:33-35).

But I don't suspect that your current understanding of Bible prophecy is at the point that you can understand where we are in prophetic history enough to grasp any of this. So until such time as you come up to speed, I won't cast any more pearls regarding this post. Hopefully, prophetic discernment will come before the events overtake us, but the Scripture speaks of the 5 virgins that awake in time and the 5 that sleep until it is too late. So there is a 50/50 chance that some will wake in time and others will sleep on until it is too late.

Christian regards

[hch]

16 hours ago, Pickle said:

4. The 70 weeks were never sealed. There is nothing about them that hasn't always been able to be understood. What I mean is that there was a full and complete explanation given in the chapter itself. Just like everyone could understand the ram, goat, first horn, four horns, and little horn of Dan. 8, everyone could understand the 70 weeks, which is quite unlike the 2300 days.

Pickle,

The 70-weeks are in Daniel 9.

The commands are:  

"Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (12:4) "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." (12:9).

"The book that was sealed is not the Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel relating to the last days." {AA 585.1}

Daniel was written in 3 portions: 1) Daniel 1:1 thru 2:3 was written in Hebrew. 2) The historical portion from King Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream to King Cyrus’ reign (2:4 to 7:28) was written in Aramaic. 3) The third portion (8:1-12:13) was written in Hebrew (See William H. Shea, The Abundant Life Bible Amplifier, Daniel 7-12, Pacific Press Publishing Association, Boise, Idaho, 1996, pp. 20-21)

The third portion (8:1-12:13) are the visions that Daniel saw while by the Ulai & Hiddekel (Tigris and Euphrates rivers).

“As we near the close of this world’s history, the prophecies recorded by Daniel demand our special attention, as they relate to the very time in which we are living.” (PK 547.2)

"The visions he [Daniel] saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon come to pass.” (TM 112.3)

The traditional view that the 70-weeks were never sealed and that they have been completely fulfilled in the time of Christ is erroneous. They did have a partial fulfillment in Christ's day, but they were primarily sealed until the endtime.

“Daniel’s prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels’ messages...” (1MR 99.2)

The first angel's message was given in 1843-44 and the three angel's messages continue until the end of time.

“As the message of Christ’s first advent announced the kingdom of His grace, so the message of His second advent announces the kingdom of His glory. And the second message, like the first, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days were to be understood in the time of the end.” (DA 234.4)

As the message of Christ’s first advent was announced in the 70-week prophecy in Daniel 9, so the message of His second advent is announced in Daniel 9 when the prophecy is in its rightful place with the 3 angels' messages. And the second message announcing Christ's second coming, like the announcement of His first Advent, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days that are now being understood in the time of the end loose their meaning when their partial fulfillment is prematurely accepted as the complete meaning.

Christian regards,

[Pickle]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As far as hch goes, I haven't a clue where he's coming from.  I can't even fathom how he has arrived at his conclusions.

Then we have something in common.

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Salvation shouldn't be as difficult as this thread is beginning to make it sound.

I don't consider the identity of the 7 heads to be that vital.

God bless.

[Pickle]

2 hours ago, hch said:

I was very clear "Time prophecy continues in Revelation after 1844, but not as a day for a year."

I know you did, but you also said otherwise since you said that there were prophetic time prophecies after 1844, and my point is that I could use your words to insist that you believed otherwise, which would be unfair. And my point on that was that that was what you were doing to Ellen White's writings.

2 hours ago, hch said:

John-Paul II spoke blasphemy as I pointed out and Just before Satan personates Christ, Satan will personate John-Paul II at which time Satan will blasphemy God.

You're not really answering my question. In what way was John Paul II given a mouth of blasphemy that the papacy had not already had? You've made no attempt to explain how that was something new. And certainly you're not trying to say that Satan did not blaspheme before.

Vatican I was a church council held from 1869-1870. It declared the pope to be infallible. A pope declared Mary to be immaculately conceived in 1854, and the Assumption of Mary in 1950. The Roman system's declaration that the priest creates his creator occurred much earlier.

The closest you came to identifying what the blasphemy was that John Paul uttered was mentioning the Sabbath. But the papal system has been doing that one for a long, long time. The Lutheran 1530 Augsburg Confession says that there was no greater boast than that the church had changed one of the 10 Commandments by changing the Sabbath. So the papal system was boasting about that by 1530.

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, hch said:

The daily is the continual or in this case, the one who continues. Thus the 1290-days began on 11/20/01 and the one who had continued was taken away 4/2/05. And the blessing came to those who understood on 5/17/05.

So you're saying that James and Ellen White were wrong for rebuking Brother Hewitt for teaching that the 1290 and 1335 days had not yet ended?

Notice that I didn't put any dates on what you are commenting on. All I was doing was drawing the connections between various verses. I didn't even identify the days as years. So there was nothing for you to disagree with me about. If you really do disagree, then you should show me where I misunderstood the connection between certain verses, not give dates.

2 hours ago, hch said:

Dan 11:30  "For the ships of Chittim [Iran's navy attacks America's aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf] shall come against him [Obama]: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant [America's constitution and God's Ten Commandments]: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

Then it is crystal clear that you believe the time of the end has not yet begun, since the 1290 days have not yet ended. And thus you must believe that the book of Daniel is still sealed.

Therefore, we can conclude that you believe that your theories are wrong, since Daniel is still sealed, and that you yourself believe that you can't understand Daniel, since it is still sealed. Or maybe you limit your wrongness and the inability to understand Daniel to just certain portions of Daniel.

At any rate, why are you on this thread posting away if you believe that Daniel is still sealed?

[Pickle]

PS. But I confess, hch, you're not being clear. While you place vs. 30 in the near future, in the previous paragraph you put the 1290 days in the recent past. And you give no explanation for that inconsistency.

Now if we rely on the previous paragraph, then you end the 1290 days around 2005, and thus you have the time of the end begin there, and the 2300 days be unsealed there. And if the 2300 days aren't unsealed until 2005, then the Millerites were dead wrong about the 2300 days ending in 1844. Thus you're saying that GC's explanation of Rev. 10 is dead wrong too. And thus you're saying that after 2005 there will be a worldwide proclamation based on an unsealed Dan. 8:14, which is sweet in the mouth and bitter in the belly, followed by another worldwide proclamation ("thou must prophesy again"), and that these future events will involve the measuring or judging of the temple, altar and worshippers (Rev. 11:1; Mat. 7:2). Since a measuring judgment is an investigative judgment, you believe that the investigative judgment begins after 2005, not 1844.

The only other possible conclusion is that you've never thought through the ramifications of what you are saying. And if that is the case, you really ought to before you go public with these things. Remember, we are told to first lay what we think is new light before brethren of experience.

[Pickle]

hch,

Your last post quotes Ellen White. Why, if you don't believe her?

Quote

We have no time to lose. Troublous times are before us. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that “shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.” [Verses 31-36, quoted.]

Scenes similar to those described in these words will take place. We see evidence that Satan is fast obtaining the control of human minds who have not the fear of God before them. Let all read and understand the prophecies of this book, for we are now entering upon the time of trouble spoken of: [Daniel 12:1-4, quoted.] (13MR 394)

Certainly you can see the implications of the above. Ellen White here puts Dan. 11:31-36 in the past, and says that something similar to those verses will happen in the future. She didn't say that something similar to a certain interpretation would happen in the future. She said that something similar to certain verses would happen in the future.

If it's similar, it isn't the same, and thus this quote is saying that there will never be another fulfillment of these verses of Dan. 11, and that they were fulfilled in the past.

[hch]

2 hours ago, Pickle said:

Certainly you can see the implications of the above. Ellen White here puts Dan. 11:31-36 in the past, and says that something similar to those verses will happen in the future. She didn't say that something similar to a certain interpretation would happen in the future. She said that something similar to certain verses would happen in the future.

Pickle,

When the book of Daniel was unsealed in 1844 at the end of the 2300-days, John the Revelator saw in Revelation 10 that time would be no longer (no more day for a year prophecy in Revelation after 1844) and he was commanded to prophesy again (John was the revelator and Daniel was the prophet) this was a command for the third portion of Daniel to reveal its endtime meaning. Thus Daniel 11 that began with the 3 kings in Persia (Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes) established the beginning of the 2300-year prophecy (457 BC) and continues through Daniel 12:1 when Christ stood for His people at the beginning of the investigative Judgment. Then Daniel 11 prophesies again without the time (the 2300-years do repeat because they have been fulfilled and the time in that chapter is no longer). Thus from Daniel 11:6 through 12:1 much of the prophecy is repeated until Christ comes (12:1).

In closing, in the past when we discussed Bible prophecy on other forums, it became impossible to discuss it with you further because of what appeared to be an inability to handle a serious discussion without getting angry. I had hoped that you may have matured over the years and might now be able to handle a serious discussion at this time. But it is apparent that when things do not fit into your scenario, you are not able to look at the information presented and to understand the point being made if you do not agree with it.

I read all of your posts addressed to me this morning and some previous ones intended for others. One post that I sent to you this morning where I quoted the Bible and EGW with very little comment from me seemed to unsettle you as evidenced by your replies that appear to accuse me of being thoughtless, contradicting myself, and doubting EGW to name a few.

I am truly sorry if I offended you during this exchange. From what I have read of your posts, you express the traditional SDA view somewhat like those who teach Preterism "a view in Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days refer to events which took place in the first century after Christ's birth." Of course many who claim to be historicists [that should be teaching that biblical predictions are being fulfilled throughout history and continue to be fulfilled today. The Book of Revelation is a pre-written history of the Church from the time of its writing to the future Second Advent of Christ, which shall usher in the new heaven and new earth] but they tend to believe the prophecies that have been fulfilled [as do Preterits] but they have difficulty when Bible prophecy meets our time.

But since you chose not to study with me when you had the chance, most of this is not going to fit into your way of thinking. An that is as it is. I know what I believe because I have prayerfully studied it and God is faithful. If we ask in faith, He will give us the wisdom we seek.

Anyone reading our posts might be shocked to know that we are fellow Seventy-day Adventists. But we have been told:

    "The messengers of God, as they leave their homes to labor for the salvation of souls, spend much of their time in laboring for those who have been in the truth for years... They are held hours and even days, and their souls are grieved and wounded ..."  {EW 105.3} 
    "Those who know the truth and have been established in it...are holding the messengers, and the very object for which God has called them into the field is not accomplished... In addition to all this, they have to meet the unbelief and prejudice of opposers and be trampled upon by some."  {EW 106.1} 
     "How much easier it would be to affect the heart and how much more would God be glorified if His servants were free from discouragement and trial, that they might with a free spirit present the truth in its beauty. Those who have been guilty of requiring so much labor of God's servants and burdening them with trials which belong to themselves to settle... thereby satisfying the enemy."   {EW 107.1}

Christian regards

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, hch said:

When the book of Daniel was unsealed in 1844 at the end of the 2300-days, John the Revelator saw in Revelation 10 that time would be no longer (no more day for a year prophecy in Revelation after 1844) and he was commanded to prophesy again (John was the revelator and Daniel was the prophet) this was a command for the third portion of Daniel to reveal its endtime meaning.

The book is unsealed at the end of the 1260 & 1290 days, before the end of the 2300 days. If you postpone the end of the 1260 and/or 1290 days, you are postponing the unsealing until whenever you say the 1260 &/or 1290 days will end.

 

1 hour ago, hch said:

In closing, in the past when we discussed Bible prophecy on other forums, it became impossible to discuss it with you further because of what appeared to be an inability to handle a serious discussion without getting angry.

I don't think you should give such excuses for still failing to give any logical reason why the extended conversation of Rev. 17 is dated at any point in time other than John's day. We should simply agree that you don't yet know of any such reasons, and then, if you can't find any reasons after giving it some thought for awhile, you should concede that you were mistaken.

 

1 hour ago, hch said:

One post that I sent to you this morning where I quoted the Bible and EGW with very little comment from me seemed to unsettle you as evidenced by your replies that appear to accuse me of being thoughtless, contradicting myself, and doubting EGW to name a few.

If I understand you to be contradicting yourself, then it is an honest statement to point that out. And since you put the 1290 days into recent times, while Ellen White stated that Brother Hewitt was wrong for doing something similar, then it is an honest question to ask why you are citing Ellen White if you don't believe her.

 

1 hour ago, hch said:

From what I have read of your posts, you express the traditional SDA view somewhat like those who teach Preterism "a view in Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days refer to events which took place in the first century after Christ's birth."

Preterism tends to have the 7 kings be individual Roman emperors, not forms of government within Rome. The very fact that the 7 forms of government view I espouse includes the popes rules it out as being a preterist view. I think, therefore, that you are mistaken.

 

1 hour ago, hch said:

But since you chose not to study with me when you had the chance, most of this is not going to fit into your way of thinking. An that is as it is. I know what I believe because I have prayerfully studied it and God is faithful. If we ask in faith, He will give us the wisdom we seek.

Anyone reading our posts might be shocked to know that we are fellow Seventy-day Adventists. But we have been told:

    "The messengers of God, as they leave their homes to labor for the salvation of souls, spend much of their time in laboring for those who have been in the truth for years... They are held hours and even days, and their souls are grieved and wounded ..."  {EW 105.3} 
    "Those who know the truth and have been established in it...are holding the messengers, and the very object for which God has called them into the field is not accomplished... In addition to all this, they have to meet the unbelief and prejudice of opposers and be trampled upon by some."  {EW 106.1} 
     "How much easier it would be to affect the heart and how much more would God be glorified if His servants were free from discouragement and trial, that they might with a free spirit present the truth in its beauty. Those who have been guilty of requiring so much labor of God's servants and burdening them with trials which belong to themselves to settle... thereby satisfying the enemy."   {EW 107.1}

I think knowledgeable people would be surprised to read that you claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist, and that you are quoting Ellen White, if they have read 1MR 60-65. In that selection she urges people to read Smith's Daniel and the Revelation. "Those who will diligently study this book will have no relish for the cheap sentiments presented by those who have a burning desire to get out something new and strange to present to the flock of God. The rebuke of God is upon all such teachers." "Many of these teachers who bring in heresies, and thus undermine the faith of some, are regarded as men of God, who walk in the light, and are seeking to deliver the church from wrong practices. But they are the servants of sin." Strong stuff.

So in actuality, Henry, maybe EW 105 is warning against spending lots of time laboring with people who get into this strange stuff, and promote theories that undermine our message.

[Martn]

[Pickle]

MCBGM,

I cited 2 Samuel 5 and 1 Chronicles 11 as containing an account of David's covenant with the Israelites to rule over them, containing five verbal parallels to Dan. 9:25-27. In light of those passages, if the Messiah to appear at the end of the 69 weeks (and Jesus was the one who appeared then) was not King Messiah, why the verbal parallels?

I am to leave on a trip, and so I have unfollowed from this thread. If you want you can email me using the link at the bottom of each page of my website. I would be happy to discuss it further.

[Martn]

[Martn]