Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[hch]

24 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Since when is a forehead equivalent to a hat?  I could see your point if scripture said "name written on her crown".  If the writing is a tattoo on her forehead, it sounds like an identification mark to me.

Hey JoeMo,

Since you say, "it sounds like an identification mark to me" are you saying that those who receive the mark of the beast on their "forehead" will be the beast because they have received the mark of the beast?

I am in shock. Of the many times I have posted my Benedict tweets, you never saw them.

These are in the twitter archives during the 14-months before Pope Benedict resigned. On the day he resigned, I could not retweet myself so I went through the files and copied them and posted them with the original date for reference. I tweet under the name: loudcryer. And all of these tweets were based on my understanding of Revelation 17, which I understand so much better today.

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11)

#Pope Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip that includes a visit to #Cuba (23 March 2012)

With Benedict XVI in his last year,

Who’s going to be the new pope? … (3 April 2012)

Is Pope Benedict going to be pope in 2013? (29 April 2012)

Months ago I tweeted that pope Benedict XVI is a short timer. Now Vatican power play is news! Y u b last 2 know? (28 May 2012)

If Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, his time ends before May 2013 (7 July 2012)

Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, because his ascension year was John-Paul II’s last year. Will Benedict XVI’s 7th year B his last (8 August 2012)

Pope #Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy, 7’s number of completeness. His ascension year (zero) 2005.

He might last till spring 2013? (30 September 2012)

Pope Benedict announced this morning (Monday February 11, 2013) that he is resigning as of 28 February 2013.

    Now that Benedict did not make it till the spring of 2013, I have had an opportunity to go back to study the prophecy from the perspective of prophecy fulfilled rather than awaiting prophetic fulfillment. I know more now (after the fact) than I did before the fact (and by God's grace my understanding was not too shabby before the fact). So I am not buying all this mumbo jumbo that folks put out; folks that have not demonstrated any accuracy in regards to prophetic discernment.

BUT I am very grateful for their posts. Because even a counterfeit point of view has a dab of truth and when I encounter those things that are off-track, I look for that gem of truth. And when the truth is polished and put in its right setting, my understanding is blessed.

Thanks for asking

[JoeMo]

4 minutes ago, hch said:

Since you say, "it sounds like an identification mark to me" are you saying that those who receive the mark of the beast on their "forehead" will be the beast because they have received the mark of the beast?

hch,

I never even implied that everyone who gets the mark is the beast.  The name of the harlot is NOT the mark of the Beast.  The mark of the beast does not designate someone as the beast.  The mark only authorizes that peson to buy and sell in the market.

I refuse to do Twitter (just as I refuse to do FaceBook); so no; I never saw any of your tweets.

[hch]

46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

hch,

I never even implied that everyone who gets the mark is the beast.  The name of the harlot is NOT the mark of the Beast.  The mark of the beast does not designate someone as the beast.  The mark only authorizes that peson to buy and sell in the market.

I refuse to do Twitter (just as I refuse to do FaceBook); so no; I never saw any of your tweets.

JoeMo

The parallel that I was pointing out is that the writing on the woman's forehead is not any different than the mark of the beast on the forehead of those that follow him. Just because it is spelled out on the forehead does not mean that it is identification of the individual.

And though you don't do twitter the info has been posted here on various threads. So I'm glad you finally had a chance to see it.

Christian regards 

[8thdaypriest]

A thought hit me this morning, that all of the "heads" on the Terrible Beast have "diadems" (Rev 12:3) - meaning they are royalty of some sort. 

Remember the "Prince of Persia" and the "Prince of Greece' in Daniel cpt 10?  These two "princes" were actually fallen angels controlling the human rulers of Persia and Greece. 

I'm just thinking that maybe the "heads" are the 7 highest fallen angels who serve directly under Satan, over areas of earth (like Persia or Greece).  These together are the actual rulers over Satan's "kingdom" or "dominion". 

Before God's thrown are "seven spirits" who are the eyes and horns of the risen Lamb (Rev. 5:6).  They are "sent out into all the earth".   I believe these are the highest angels of Christ's army of angels. 

Why would not Satan's kingdom mirror God's kingdom structure? 

When one of the 7 heads receives a "deadly wound" then Satan's dominion is not complete.  Satan wants a complete rule - so that he can claim rightful possession of earth. 

The 8th "head" (the image of the Beast) restores the complete structure of Satan's dominion once again.

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

The "ten horns" which rise from the Beast kingdom, "are ten kings" (Dan 7:24, Rev 17:12) and they have "crowns" (Rev 13:1).  The 10 kings hate "the harlot" and finally burn her with fire. 

The "ten kings" seem to be actual earthly physical kings, ruling over divisions of this earth. 

The (4th) terrible Beast tramples the whole/entire earth and breaks it in pieces (Dan 7:23).  Ten pieces??  Maybe earth will be divided into 10 regions.  This has already been mapped out and planned. 

I'm starting to think that the whole picture - Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns - we are seeing the LAST DAYS structure of Satan's kingdom/dominion. 

One "head" receives a "deadly wound".  The text does not say which head receives the wound.  It just says "one of the heads".  Wounding THAT HEAD wounds the Beast itself  (Rev. 13:12). To replace THAT HEAD - and resurrect the Beast - "the image to the Beast" is powered up by the lamb-like beast from "the land". 

The 8th HEAD = the image of the Beast = the little horn.  Why would I equate them??

Look at who persecutes the saints. 

The Beast makes war with the saints.  It rules over the entire earth. (Rev. 13 1-7, esp vs 7, and Dan 7:23).

HOW does the Beast persecute the saints?  Through it's little horn.    There were 10 horns.  Take away 3.  That's 7 left.  Then add the "little horn" = that's 8 horns.  

The "little horn" IS the 8th horn.  It's also the 8th "head". 

In Daniel, the saints are "given into his hand" [the hand of the "little horn"] for 3.5 years (Dan 7:25). 

The little horn - with "eyes" and a mouth speaking "pompous words against the Most High" (Dan 7:20-22, 25).

In Daniel 8, the "little horn" exalts himself as high as the Prince of the host.  The little horn takes away the "daily" (8:11). 

He is THE SAME "prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:26, who will  "destroy the city and the Sanctuary" and will "bring an end to sacrifice and offering" [take away the daily].

He is THE SAME "king" who arises, with "fierce features" (not lamb-like), who "understands sinister schemes" . . (in Dan. 8:23-24) who "will destroy the . . holy people".  

In Revelation, it's the image of the Beast that "causes all to take the mark" and decrees death to anyone who will not serve/worship it (the image).  Rev 13:15-17.

In Revelation IT"S THE IMAGE that is persecuting, and demanding "worship".  

In Daniel it's the "little horn" that is persecuting, and exalting himself "as high as the Prince of the host", who sit's in the Temple of God, "showing himself that he IS God."

 

 

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 3:25 PM, JoeMo said:

I don't recall seeing any explicit  bible verses to back up your assertions.  I just see your assertions.

JoeMo,

I did not post all of the Bible texts here so you did not miss seeing them. I studied the texts and understood them to say that Benedict would leave office by the spring of 2013 and I posted the historical evidence that it happened as I understood the prophecy. If you look on other prophetic threads here at club Adventist, you will find some of the texts that I did post. But you will have to look for them or read my book (The Great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale) when it is published. It has all of the texts in a neat and orderly presentation without being interspersed by random commentary and clutter.

Christian regards  

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:53 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm thinking more of the "fire" that came out from the Most Holy Place, to light the "fire" on the Alter of Sacrifice, at the dedication of the original wilderness Tabernacle, and at the dedication of Solomon's Temple.  This WOULD be a sign to world religious leaders that "GOD" has affirmed this Temple as HIS place of residence on earth.   

The beast from the earth (USA) can only counterfeit "fire" by its technology as much as God allows. It is a deceptive beast that compels the world to obey it by the miracles that it is permitted to do. 

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:48 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

The BEAST (with all its heads and horns), and the FALSE PROPHET are "thrown into the lake of fire" at the Second Coming.  The DRAGON is not! 

Rev 20:10  "And the devil [that old serpent, Satan, the dragon] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
 

[Pickle]

hch,

You refer to various popes. I assume you are advocating the view that the 7 heads begin in 1929. The greatest problem I see in that view is that it contradicts the scriptural precedent found in Rev. 11, that extended conversations within the vision are spoken within a time context of John's day, while what he sees in the vision is recorded in past tense.

Revelation 11:2-3  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Obviously, if the 1260 days run from 538 to 1798, this extended conversation must be dated before 538, and thus in John's day.

Revelation 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

In the KJV, Rev. 11 switches back to a record of scenes from a record of a conversation between vss. 10 and 11, since in 10 the rejoicing over the dead witnesses is future, and in vs. 11 the resurrection of the two witnesses is past.

Applying this simple principle to Rev. 17 mandates that the 5 fallen kings be already fallen in John's day, since the explanation that 5 are fallen is part of an extended conversation.

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

idea

We really have no idea who these 10 kings are, because they do not "rule with the Beast" until the very END TIME.  So how can we know who "the 8th king" - "little horn" IS? 

8thday

You must be speaking for yourself.

I have taught since 1997 that these 10-kings are the American Presidents from Truman (who called fire down from heaven) through Bill Clinton. Their rule aligned with the popes (six of the seven heads) that reigned from 1929 (Pius XI) through 2000 (John-Paul II). Truman was a senator while Pius XI ruled and the Pendergrass political group with ties to the papacy was instrumental in getting him to be Vice President, which meant president when Roosevelt died.

Then when Benedict (head 7) ruled for a short space, the prophecy Revelation 13 transitioned from the papal beast to the beast with lamblike horns from the earth (USA) GW and BO. Thus BO is second horn on the earth beast, the one who will lead USA to take up persecution of God's people.

I really know that this is the way it is even though others have not come to this knowledge. But I also know that there is a famine in the land for the word of God. People just do not understand it as the Holy Spirit intended for God's word to be understood.  

Christian regards

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:09 AM, MCBGM said:

The beast, we are told, comes out of the sea.

MCBGM,

Though the vision in Daniel 7 begins with sea-beasts, Heaven's interpretation that is for the endtime focuses on earth-kings (Daniel 7:17). The meaning of the earth-kings was sealed (Daniel 12:4, 9) until the time of the end.  

Christian regards

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 0:13 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

The lamb-like beast "performs great signs" even making fire come down from heaven" (obviously empowered by Satan).   By these signs he deceives men to do what he says.

Truman's fire bombs on Japan were ''great signs'' empowered by technology. As are Obama's drones that call fire down from heaven on unsuspecting victims. And who can imagine what the lazar satellites will do when BO takes the wraps off of that technology?

Some people think that SDI didn't work,  but why would GW withdraw the USA from the ABM treaty that banned the implementation of SDI if there was nothing to implement? And of course by taking a very public SDI program and changing its name to BMD and then to... &... makes it all the harder to follow. And less we forget, the USA has spent about $10 billion annually for over a decade for technology "that does not work." Maybe the government wants to sell us a bridge in Brooklyn too?

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 1:00 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

What I don't see, is that "the 8th head", is the same as "the little horn", is the same as "the harlot" who rides the Beast, is the same as the Papacy.  I can't put all those together. 

8thday

At least you are studying to show yourself approved of God a worker that needs not to be ashamed. If only Laodicea would do that too. But Laodicea is in need of nothing: it has the Bible, the Sabbath, the Spirit of Prophecy and so much self-confidence that it does not need to plead for the Holy Spirit to keep its understanding up to date.

I'll defend what I know. Pray to learn what I don't know. And look at other's views to gain insights. But the best that I can do by myself will never hold a candle to what God can do through those who let Him lead.

Christian regards

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:47 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Revelation 13:5 "The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months."(NRS)

8thday,

Did you realize that Pope John-Paul II uttered blasphemous words? He had a deadly wound (assassination attempt) that was healed? And he lived 42 full months after 9/11/01?

From 9/11/01

October, November, December 2001

12 months in 2002

12 months in 2003

12 months in 2004

January, February, March 2005 =     42-months 

And did you know that Daniel 7 identifies 9/11/01?

Christian regards

[hch]

1 hour ago, Pickle said:

The greatest problem I see in that view is that it contradicts the scriptural precedent found in Rev. 11, that extended conversations within the vision are spoken within a time context of John's day, while what he sees in the vision is recorded in past tense.

Pickle,

I addressed that in an earlier post that you must have missed. In vision John was taken into the future where he saw endtime events in the present tense.

" In the Revelation... Some of the scenes depicted in this prophecy are in the past, some are now taking place; some bring to view the close of the great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven, and some reveal the triumphs and joys of the redeemed in the earth made new."  {AA 584.1}   

Christian regards

[hch]

2 hours ago, Pickle said:

Obviously, if the 1260 days run from 538 to 1798, this extended conversation must be dated before 538, and thus in John's day.

Pickle,

I discussed this earlier either on this thread or

The 1260 years are from Egypt's death decree at the time of Moses birth through (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome) to Christ's birth. Then they are repeated in papal Rome as you noted. And they have a final application in the reign of Pope John-Paul II. I explain all of this in my book: The Great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale, which was set for self-publication 15 March 2016, but a well known publisher of religious books, contacted me on 7 March to request the manuscript for their consideration to publish.

Christian regards

[hch]

2 hours ago, Pickle said:

Applying this simple principle to Rev. 17 mandates that the 5 fallen kings be already fallen in John's day, since the explanation that 5 are fallen is part of an extended conversation.

Pickle,

Isn't it amazing that I was able to understand from prophecy (a prophecy that you have determined applies to ancient times) that Pope Benedict would not be pope after the spring of 2013. Since I was able to say 14-months before his retirement that 2012 was to be his last year; he might last till May 2013; and then to hone it down to the spring of 2013 and he left office in February. The historical evidence of prophecy understood before it was fulfilled and prophecy being fulfilled that confirms the before the fact understanding, it does not confirm your reading of Revelation 17. 

Christian regards

[Pickle]

48 minutes ago, hch said:

Pickle,

I addressed that in an earlier post that you must have missed. In vision John was taken into the future where he saw endtime events in the present tense.

" In the Revelation... Some of the scenes depicted in this prophecy are in the past, some are now taking place; some bring to view the close of the great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven, and some reveal the triumphs and joys of the redeemed in the earth made new."  {AA 584.1}   

Christian regards

No, that doesn't negate the clear, biblical principle seen in Rev. 11.

Note your very words: "In vision John was taken into the future where he saw endtime events in the present tense." That is totally different from what John heard as part of an extended conversational explanation. I'm talking about the time context of what John heard, not what John saw. The time context for what he heard is his own day.

And besides, you're incorrect if you are saying that John recorded the scenes of Rev. 17 in present tense. He did not. "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman ...." "Carried" and "saw" are past tense, not present tense, because John is describing what he had already seen in the past, which has nothing to do with when in time the prophecy was to be fulfilled.

AA 584 does not conflict with what I've stated.

[Pickle]

28 minutes ago, hch said:

Pickle,

Isn't it amazing that I was able to understand from prophecy (a prophecy that you have determined applies to ancient times) that Pope Benedict would not be pope after the spring of 2013. Since I was able to say 14-months before his retirement that 2012 was to be his last year; he might last till May 2013; and then to hone it down to the spring of 2013 and he left office in February. The historical evidence of prophecy understood before it was fulfilled and prophecy being fulfilled that confirms the before the fact understanding, it does not confirm your reading of Revelation 17. 

Christian regards

Not necessarily. Perhaps you've made a lot of predictions and finally got one right by coincidence.

I do not understand why you would say that an end-time confederacy of republics and democracies giving their power and strength to a resurgent papacy would be a prophecy fulfilled in ancient times.

It's not my reading of Rev. 17. It's what Rev. 11 clearly says, and then the applying of that principle to Rev. 17.

Otherwise, when is the 6th king? How can you tell using just Revelation? Is it when the woman is riding the beast in the wilderness, and the beast is not during the time the woman is riding it? I don't think I've ever found anyone who says that. So when is the 6th king?

[hch]

26 minutes ago, Pickle said:

The time context for what he heard is his own day.

Pickle,

Are you trying to say that the time context of what he heard and saw are not the same?

Rev 17:1  "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew [A prolonged form of an obsolete primary of the same meaning; to show] unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Rev 17:6  "And I saw [to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot] the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw [to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot] her, I wondered with great admiration."

Christian regards

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Rev 20:10  "And the devil [that old serpent, Satan, the dragon] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
 

If I read scripture correctly, this occurs AFTER the millennium reign; not at the Second Coming.

[hch]

28 minutes ago, Pickle said:

Otherwise, when is the 6th king? How can you tell using just Revelation? Is it when the woman is riding the beast in the wilderness, and the beast is not during the time the woman is riding it? I don't think I've ever found anyone who says that. So when is the 6th king?

Pickle,

I began to understand Rev 17 when the 6th king is -- when John-Paul II was alive and ruling.

Rev 17:8  "The beast that thou sawest was [John-Paul II ruling], and is not [John-Paul II died]; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit [John-Paul II is personated by Satan who is the one that goes into the bottomless pit], and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath [bottomless pit]. Satan will not only appear as a human being [John-Paul II], but he will personate Jesus Christ; "  {5BC 1105.8}

Imagine Satan appearing as John-Paul II saying something like "touch me feel me, this is my spiritual body, look in the Vatican crypt..." "Didn't I give you Dies Domini the Sabbath is now Sunday."

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. "--The Great Controversy, p. 588.

Imagine Satan appearing as John-Paul II saying something like  "I am going to the Father and I will send Jesus to comfort you."

"Satan will not only appear as a human being [John-Paul II], but he will personate Jesus Christ; "  {5BC 1105.8}

The woman is apostate Protestantism which is riding the papal beast.

Christian regards

[Pickle]

25 minutes ago, hch said:

Pickle,

Are you trying to say that the time context of what he heard and saw are not the same?

That's what I said when I first brought up the point, as long as when you say "heard" you're referring to an extended conversation.

[Pickle]

7 minutes ago, hch said:

Pickle,

I began to understand Rev 17 when the 6th king is -- when John-Paul II was alive and ruling.

You did not answer my question. You gave no reasons from Revelation which pinpoint John Paul's day as when the 6th king is. And that was my point. If we don't date the 6th king in John's day, we have no way to date it using the passage itself. And thus the timing of the 6th king becomes merely a private interpretation.

9 minutes ago, hch said:

The woman is apostate Protestantism which is riding the papal beast.

Ellen White said the woman is the papacy. Rev. 17 says she's the great city that sits on 7 mountains. That has to be Rome.

Of course, Protestantism fits into the picture somehow, but not as the woman per se. Her daughters, yes, the woman, no.

[hch]

49 minutes ago, Pickle said:

Perhaps you've made a lot of predictions and finally got one right by coincidence.

Pickle,

It's more like the 1843 error of the early Adventists. They had the timing right but got the event wrong. Then they got the timing right but got the event wrong again in 1844. And when they continued to study they understood the event and timing, but folks who had seen them make a mistake, wrote them off as fanatics.

I've been close and not quite a homerun at times. So I've had to go back to the Scriptures and restudy it and learn.

And there have been those who have been assistants to the accuser of the brethren along the way who have tried to make it appear that I was in error when I was correct. I think of that woman who runs a popular web board that I used to post on. I misspoke on one occasion and she tore my post apart. When I submitted a correction that showed my view had been correct but the presentation had a misspeak in it, she rejected my post, but allowed her erroneous post to stand that cast me in a most unfavorable light.

Remember, " In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of advance to our present standing, I can say, Praise God! As I see what the Lord has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history."--LS 196 (1902).

If God led His people in the past from their errors to a more perfect understanding of the truth, it is a mistake to think that He will not do the same for us today.