Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[JoeMo]

hch,

Like I have posted before, until prophecy unfolds, we can only speculate on how it will unfold.  Until the time that it does unfold, all any of us can do is offer an opinion.  Could the papacy or the RCC play a larger role than Isalm in the end times? Yes.  Could Islam play a larger role than the RCC? Yes.  Could they both have a major role? Yes.  Could it be something completely different having nothing to do with either Islam or the RCC? Yes.

That being said, I find Thomas' and my scenario much less convoluted and "fantastic" than yours.  Admittedly, that is at least partially because I reached the same conclusions as he has independently of ever meeting him.  I personally find your theories about Obama's role in the end times and equating "loose loins"  with altar boy abuse a little over the top.  My own son was sexually abused by an SDA teacher; and then kicked out of the church when he complained about it.  He's dead now; IMHO at least partially due to the trauma of  being molested by a spiritual and educational mentor and then being persecuted by the church he loved rather than being believed and supported.  I know women who have been propositioned and seduced by SDA pastors; and then threatened with being disfellowshipped if they said anything.  How different is this than what happens in the RCC? ANSWER: Not very.  I have heard the same stories about leaders in other denominations as well.  They all have "loose loins".  Restricting lust to priests and Catholics is a libelous fantasy.  "Loose loins" is a problem with a person; not a denomination.  What about radical Muslim jihadis kidnapping thousands of women as sex slaves? Or raping them in the streets and alleys of countries who have offered them sanctuary?  Is that not "loose loins" as well?  What about imams telling European women that if they don't want to be raped, to stay at home?

Nonetheless, if your scenario plays out, I'll be glad to admit that I was wrong and you were right.  Will you do the same if Thomas' and my scenario plays out?

[hch]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Nonetheless, if your scenario plays out, I'll be glad to admit that I was wrong and you were right.  Will you do the same if Thomas' and my scenario plays out?

Good morning JoeMo,

I will gladly admit that I am wrong if another prophetic point of view is proven to be correct.

Unfortunately, it is to be as it was in the days of Noah. The antediluvians waited until it began to rain to pay any attention to Noah's preaching. The Laodiceans do likewise. They are RICH and in need of nothing. Thus they wait until it is too late to check the facts that they do not believe that they need and they wait until it is to late to make the needed reforms. And the parable of the 10 virgins confirms this.  All the virgins wake up at the Bridegrooms coming. But 5 awoke in time to prepare and 5 waited until it was too late.

The evidence to support my conclusions is there. Though I have discovered from Bible study that Pope Francis is also a short timer, Satan will soon appear personating John-Paul II, and who the President of the USA will be on 1/22/2017; these things are not revealed in the Bible because enquiring minds want to know. God does not put things in the Bible to tickle our imagination. God puts things in the Bible for a purpose. The purpose is to prepare the saints to meet the KING. And that they might give the right message at the right time to prepare the world to meet the KING!

So though I appreciate your kind words, if I fail to inspire you to dig a little deeper, I am as a watchman whose voice is silenced at the time when the danger is the greatest and the warning needs to be heard.

Christian regards,

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, hch said:

I have discovered from Bible study that Pope Francis is also a short timer, Satan will soon appear personating John-Paul II, and who the President of the USA will be on 1/22/2017

Since I have never seen your biblical backup for this (or if I have seen it, it didn't make enough sense to gel in my mind),  I have no basis but your word on which to accept this premise.

3 hours ago, hch said:

The antediluvians waited until it began to rain to pay any attention to Noah's preaching. The Laodiceans do likewise. They are RICH and in need of nothing. Thus they wait until it is too late to check the facts that they do not believe that they need and they wait until it is to late to make the needed reforms.

I think that most of us are "awake" enough to discern the signs of the times, if we keep our minds open to the possibilities.  Your analogy about waiting until it's too late to check out the facts doesn't happen until the church is taken into the sky and the 3 "Woes" and/or  the 7 bowls start to fall.  As far as "checking out the facts" goes, believe me, I have done MUCH fact checking.  I have just reached different conclusions than you by looking at those facts.  None of us knows the details about the future.  We form our constructs based on our own logic and experience.  Prophecy will unfold the way it unfolds; and all of us will likely be surprised by how it does happen.

Jesus was the only one in His day that knew how the prophecies of His First Coming would unfold; it caught everyone else by surprise.  Who actually believed that a body that battered and injured could come back from the dead?  Certainly none of His disciples believed until they saw the empty tomb.

By the grace of God, we should know who is the beast, antichrist, harlot, etc. WAY before the seven bowl fall - if we keep our eyes open. I don't totally dismiss your scenario; I just hold the one Thomas and I currently profess as more feasible and realistic, given what we see in the world today.  Future events could alter my opinion.

Blessings to you; over and out.

[8thdaypriest]

He will "deceive - if possible - the very elect".  That's some deception. 

Only those indwelt by the spirit of Jesus will "recognize" the final deception.  Everyone else - and I mean every person on earth - will "worship" (which means serve) the Beast.  Therefore it seems to me, the most important "task" at hand, is to know Jesus - to have a true relationship with Him. 

[hch]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

By the grace of God, we should know who is the beast, antichrist, harlot, etc. WAY before the seven bowl fall - if we keep our eyes open. I don't totally dismiss your scenario; I just hold the one Thomas and I currently profess as more feasible and realistic, given what we see in the world today.  Future events could alter my opinion.

Blessings to you; over and out.

JoeMo

It looks like you identified the problem.

"we should know who is the beast, antichrist, harlot"

beast=Pope Francis I

antichrist=Obama

harlot=Apostate Protestant Churches in USA

But some folks are as uninformed as if it had never been revealed.

Christian regards

[hch]

9 hours ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

What happens to Obama's Antichrist status when he's out of office?

Save that thought until 1/22/2017

I believe God has answered that question in His word, But not everyone is willing to read His word

It appears as though most folks would rather banter around their pet ideas

[hch]

13 hours ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

Is 1/22/2017 a pet idea? 

I apologize for not keeping up with every post in this thread but can you give me the text to study to understand your numerology?

I don't think that I gave any texts.

It would take a Bible study to get you up to speed.

That is if you really want to know what the Bible says rather than my word verses someone's opinion.

Daniel 11:21 "And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."

For that to make sense you have to understand that the endtime final meaning is talking about Obama. And you have to look at the original language.

Daniel 11:21 "And inH5921 his estateH3653 shall stand upH5975 a vile person,H959"

Daniel 11:21 "beyond the time H5921 the foot H3653 shall continue H5975; a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."

As GW got the kingdom by flatteries (accused of stealing the Oval Office from Gore)

BO was accused of not being an American citizen so he got the Oval Office by flatteries too.

flatteries are FINE PROMISES

And when it is time for him to leave office 1/20/17, "beyond the time the foot shall continue."

So without going to the trouble to PROVE it that this is really talking about BO --you have it in a nut shell.

I have a book that explains it and that gives the Bible texts and Spirit of Prophecy quotes:

My book: The Great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale    Was to be self published on 3/15/16

A major publisher of religious books contacted me 3/7/16

requesting the opportunity to review the manuscript so that they could possibly publish it.

 They started their review 3/9/16 and I have continued to study, pray, and update (my copy)

Hope that answered your question without too much side info.

Christian Regards

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 12/03/2016 at 9:18 PM, JoeMo said:

You must read a million words a minute; and type equally as fast.  I continue to be astounded by the depth of your research and the eloquence of your presentation.  I really hope people are taking the time to read through your posts.  They exquisitely document just about everything that I simply ramble on about.

You referred at leat once to Montifiore's "Jerusalem - The Biography" - one of the most fascinating and educational books I have ever read on the history of the Middle East.

I can't confirm it, but it seems to me that you may be spiritually gifted in the area of research and discernment.  I feel the same way about a few other posters on here.

Thanks so much Joe! I really appreciate your comments. They always mean a great deal.

It’s also great that we’re on the same page, even with reading books! Montefiore is indeed brilliant. I’ve also recorded several BBC documentary series of his (Jerusalem; Rome: The Eternal City; Byzantium: A Tale of Three Cities; and now one on Spain) and I just find him a brilliant and accessible historian. When watching/listening to his dramatic and sweeping narrative it makes history so riveting!

Blessing to you brother

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 14/03/2016 at 10:33 PM, Kevin H said:

I have not been online for a few days, so I have not yet had a chance to read your post. I will give it careful consideration. However I need to start out with shock of this comment. I hope that you will come back here and said "I'm sorry I typed this sentence too fast and 'Papal Seventh Head' was typed by mistake since most people I am discussing this topic with believe in the Papal Seventh Head."

If you did not mistype then could you point out anyplace where I supported a Papal Seventh head? I've been here with you warning against the tradition of the Papal 7th head.

Kevin,

Well, I guess I am a bit confused. So you don't believe in a Papal Seventh Head? If I had misunderstood you, it was not intentional. However, you do still include the Papacy as part of the Seventh Head ("like the 5th head the 7th head will look very Christian"), so it wasn't totally misunderstood.

But my real point is that none of the heads are papal, whether it be 7th or 5th. And the real issue is based on a simple point, that I did explain, to which I'm wondering if you've read or understood. Rev. 17.10 explains that "five [heads/kings/empires] have fallen". Obviously, at the time of Revelation, those five had passed away since they had already "fallen." Do you disagree with this? If so, for what reason? It goes on to say "one is". That "is" refers obviously to that which presently exists, namely the Roman Empire. What reason would you have to dismiss it? Those are my contentions. We'll get to my interpretation later, since I don't know if you understand this part.

What's more, I am totally confused about why you would believe that the Papacy is the 5th Head for reasons already explained above. So that I understand you absolutely clearly, who do you say is the 6th Head is? You also say, "That the 7th head is different from the other 5 heads because the other 5 were political conquests, but the 7th head is predicted in the Bible to be the whole world submitting to the corporate and banking cartels/ the merchants of the earth." Well, how is this derived from the text? As far as the Bible says, a Head represents a King and a mountain, and a mountain represents a kingdom/empire, therefore a Head represents a Empire King and its Empire. The banking cartels are not an empire under an empire king. The pattern of 7 heads do not indicate a disimilarity but similarity, and this similarity is obvious, as I say: Empire under an Empire King. Not just 5, but all 7 of them. Where does it indicate otherwise?

Those are my questions/challenges, and I hope that you can answer them specifically.

God bless

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 15/03/2016 at 6:31 PM, hch said:

Regarding all of your pompous words: "where's the beef?"

What have you shared with us that has proven itself by its dependability in regards to prophetic understanding? Your interpretation of past events? How about when the rubber meets the road?

hch, 

You are simply not reading anything I say. What else can I say than what I write? If you don't reply specifically and directly to any of the points made, and merely repeat what you started off saying, you aren't really addressing anything. I even provided you with Ellen White quotes on proving your position (which is not targeted at you alone, we all as believers generally must do so). You talk about past events but I haven't seen one reference to back up any of your so-called historical 'facts' which are in truth fictional understandings drawn from traditional Adventist belief heritage. I don't fault you for being informed by them necessarily, I only fault you for not using any reasons or evidence to support them. So how can anyone take these claims seriously? Call my facts "pompous" if you wish. That's not what I would call them. I would simply call them historically verified facts. 

You'll be happy to know that I only leave you with one question, and it is this:

Can you find out and verify when the Roman Empire ended and who ended it?

This is as succinct and poignant as I can make it so that we can be absolutely clear. If you can answer that, then we are getting somewhere.

God bless

[hch]

1 minute ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

hch, 

You are simply not reading anything I say. What else can I say than what I write? If you don't reply specifically and directly to any of the points made, and merely repeat what you started off saying, you aren't really addressing anything. I even provided you with Ellen White quotes on proving your position (which is not targeted at you alone, we all as believers generally must do so). You talk about past events but I haven't seen one reference to back up any of your so-called historical 'facts' which are in truth fictional understandings drawn from traditional Adventist belief heritage. I don't fault you for being informed by them necessarily, I only fault you for not using any reasons or evidence to support them. So how can anyone take these claims seriously? Call my facts "pompous" if you wish. That's not what I would call them. I would simply call them historically verified facts. 

You'll be happy to know that I only leave you with one question, and it is this:

Can you find out and verify when the Roman Empire ended and who ended it?

This is as succinct and poignant as I can make it so that we can be absolutely clear. If you can answer that, then we are getting somewhere.

God bless

Thomas,

I read every word that you address to me.

In fact, I have a program on my pc that reads it to me as well so I often read them several time.

I don't disagree with your history, so I nothing to comment about it except that it is just out of sync with Bible prophecy.

You EGW quotes were interesting, but they agree with my studies, so what is there to say.

"In 476 AD, the Heruli king, Odoacer, overthrew the Western Roman Emperor. The Eastern Emperor, Zeno (474-491) pressed the Ostrogoths to crush the Heruli. After the Ostrogoths trounced them in a turf war, three Arian tribes remained: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Because the 10-tribes were being evangelized by the Church of Rome, the Eastern Emperor, Justinian, later empowered the Bishop of Rome to stabilize the western empire adjacent to Rome." (The Great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale, p.66)

Christian regards

 

 

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 15/03/2016 at 7:34 PM, JoeMo said:

My own son was sexually abused by an SDA teacher; and then kicked out of the church when he complained about it.  He's dead now; IMHO at least partially due to the trauma of  being molested by a spiritual and educational mentor and then being persecuted by the church he loved rather than being believed and supported.  I know women who have been propositioned and seduced by SDA pastors; and then threatened with being disfellowshipped if they said anything.

Dear brother Joe,

I am totally gobsmacked that this happened to your son. It is deeply deeply saddening, and I am aghast with disgust. I offer my condolences. This is utterly devastating. I am incensed with you. 

What you say also about women being abused by pastors is also totally shocking. I had to help a young girl once who was new to the country and was sexually harrassed by an elder of the church. No one helped her, and so me and brother took it on ourselves to confront the person with this. Then we went to the pastor. Response: didn't take it seriously. So I took it to the police. They took it seriously and were willing to press charges. It's an awful state of denial that the church is in. It's disgusting actually. Accountability is definitely not its strong suit. I agree: it sounds no different than RCC or any other organisation for that matter.

I am just so so sad for your loss brother. I don't know what I'd do if it happened to my daughter, and that is a fear that is all too real for me. I am so so sorry.

Your brother

Thomas

[Thomas the Doubter]

5 minutes ago, hch said:

I read every word that you address to me.

In fact, I have a program on my pc that reads it to me as well so I often read them several time.

I don't disagree with your history, so I nothing to comment about it except that it is just out of sync with Bible prophecy.

You EGW quotes were interesting, but they agree with my studies, so what is there to say.

"In 476 AD, the Heruli king, Odoacer, overthrew the Western Roman Emperor. The Eastern Emperor, Zeno (474-491) pressed the Ostrogoths to crush the Heruli. After the Ostrogoths trounced them in a turf war, three Arian tribes remained: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Because the 10-tribes were being evangelized by the Church of Rome, the Eastern Emperor, Justinian, later empowered the Bishop of Rome to stabilize the western empire adjacent to Rome." (The Great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale, p.66)

hch,

Well, I hope you are reading them. And I'm glad you have a pc program that reads it.

Here's the thing with everything that we're talking about right here in the quote you just posted from your book, which is great. It says that "in 476, the Heruli king, Odoacer, overthrew the Western Roman Emperor." Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is when you believe the Roman Empire fell. Don't worry, I'm not just saying its you, it's Adventism's traditional position since its dawn too. But here is where the big question mark comes in, and its found in the very next sentence of that quote: "The Eastern Emperor, Zeno (474-491) pressed the Ostrogoths to crush the Heruli." Eastern Emperor of what? Well, obviously if the Western Emperor was Roman, the Eastern Emperor was Roman too. And if the Eastern Emperor is the Roman Emperor, which he is, and if he died in 491 then how could the Roman Empire have ended in 476 since it was still alive under the Eastern Roman Emperor in 491? Obviously this doesn't match up because the Roman Empire continued on in the Eastern Roman Empire with its new capital in Constantinople (named after Constantine the Great - a Roman Emperor).

Now do you see where I'm coming from (or going)?

[hch]

16 minutes ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

hch,

Well, I hope you are reading them. And I'm glad you have a pc program that reads it.

Here's the thing with everything that we're talking about right here in the quote you just posted from your book, which is great. It says that "in 476, the Heruli king, Odoacer, overthrew the Western Roman Emperor." Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is when you believe the Roman Empire fell. Don't worry, I'm not just saying its you, it's Adventism's traditional position since its dawn too. But here is where the big question mark comes in, and its found in the very next sentence of that quote: "The Eastern Emperor, Zeno (474-491) pressed the Ostrogoths to crush the Heruli." Eastern Emperor of what? Well, obviously if the Western Emperor was Roman, the Eastern Emperor was Roman too. And if the Eastern Emperor is the Roman Emperor, which he is, and if he died in 491 then how could the Roman Empire have ended in 476 since it was still alive under the Eastern Roman Emperor in 491? Obviously this doesn't match up because the Roman Empire continued on in the Eastern Roman Empire with its new capital in Constantinople (named after Constantine the Great - a Roman Emperor).

Now do you see where I'm coming from (or going)?

Thomas,

The Roman Empire fell when it divided into the Eastern and the Western Roman Empire.

The Western Roman Empire was carved up by 10 Germanic tribes and Odoacer, overthrew the Western Roman Emperor. At which time Emperor Zeno appointed Theodoric the Great to be King of Italy as a surrogate of the Eastern Roman Empire. Worked well for a while. Then Clovis converted to RC and invaded Visigoth (Spain) in 507 and killed  Theodoric's son in law. The Visigoths made Gesalic king.

"Theodoric the Great (Alaric’s father-in-law, king of the Ostrogoths/Goths, the king of Italy) also sent his army to help the Visigoths in 508.^[1] It plucked up (removed) Alaric’s son, King Gesalic, to secure the kingdom until Prince Amalaric (Alaric’s son by Theodoric’s daughter) was of age. The Visigoths in Spain were later conquered by the Franks."

"When King Clovis became a Catholic, he accepted the Bishop of Rome as the head of Christendom. The Arian Visigoths in Spain refused to accept the bishop’s authority. Clovis invaded Spain. King Alaric was killed in the war and his son, Gesalic, became king. By removing Alaric’s son, King Gesalic, in 508 AD; Theodoric the Great became the regent of the Visigoths until his grandson, Amalaric, was of age to rule. Amalaric later married King Clovis’ daughter, who refused to renounce her Catholic faith. Enraged, Amalaric reportedly beat her severely. This enraged her brother, King Childebert I of France, who invaded Spain. Thus when the Eastern Roman surrogate, Theodoric the Great, deposed King Gesalic in 508, events were set in motion that led to the demise of the Arian Visigoths and prepared the way for the supremacy of the little horn power in Rome, the papacy."

"Later the Eastern Roman emperor, Justinian, appointed the Bishop of Rome to be the head of all the Churches with the intention of increasing his authority as needed. In 533 AD Justinian’s army plucked up King Gelimer, the Arian Vandal king in North Africa, who had deposed his cousin for becoming a Catholic."

"After the Eastern emperors used the Goths to stabilize the Western Empire, the Romans wanted them to integrate into their culture. The Goths’ nobility refused. Nationalism blocked them from continuing as Justinian’s surrogate rulers of Italy. Theodoric the Great had died and his daughter, Amalasuntha, became Queen of the Ostrogoths. Though an Arian, she was a strong ally of Justinian. But the Ostrogoths’ nobility opposed Eastern Roman alliance. After her husband and son died, she made Theodahad king. He banished her, and she was assassinated."

"Justinian’s army had just returned from North Africa. It attacked King Theodahad. He was killed. The Ostrogoths chose Witigis to be their king/King of Italy in 536. To fortify his rule, he went to Ravenna to marry Theodoric the Great’s granddaughter. But when King Witigis returned to Rome, Justinian’s army was camped outside the city. King Witigis attacked. Pope Silverius, who had been made pope through the influence of the King of the Goths, allowed General Belisarius to shelter his army in Rome. Belisarius turned on Silverius and made Vigilius pope while King Witigis besieged Rome. In 538, Belisarius plucked up the third horn: Witigis fled to Ravenna where Belisarius later captured him. Thus in 538, Pope Vigilius was enabled to act as the Eastern Roman Empire’s surrogate in the affairs of church and state in the former Western Roman Empire. 'The vast empire of Rome crumbled to pieces, and from its ruins rose that mighty power, the Roman Catholic Church.'"^[1]

 

---

 

 

---

There is so much more I could say, but as long as you do not follow the prophecy as it is written, you cannot come to a right conclusion regarding the meaning of Revelation 17 or any other part of Bible prophecy.

 

[Kevin H]

6 hours ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

Kevin,

Well, I guess I am a bit confused. So you don't believe in a Papal Seventh Head? If I had misunderstood you, it was not intentional. However, you do still include the Papacy as part of the Seventh Head ("like the 5th head the 7th head will look very Christian"), so it wasn't totally misunderstood.

But my real point is that none of the heads are papal, whether it be 7th or 5th. And the real issue is based on a simple point, that I did explain, to which I'm wondering if you've read or understood. Rev. 17.10 explains that "five [heads/kings/empires] have fallen". Obviously, at the time of Revelation, those five had passed away since they had already "fallen." Do you disagree with this? If so, for what reason? It goes on to say "one is". That "is" refers obviously to that which presently exists, namely the Roman Empire. What reason would you have to dismiss it? Those are my contentions. We'll get to my interpretation later, since I don't know if you understand this part.

What's more, I am totally confused about why you would believe that the Papacy is the 5th Head for reasons already explained above. So that I understand you absolutely clearly, who do you say is the 6th Head is? You also say, "That the 7th head is different from the other 5 heads because the other 5 were political conquests, but the 7th head is predicted in the Bible to be the whole world submitting to the corporate and banking cartels/ the merchants of the earth." Well, how is this derived from the text? As far as the Bible says, a Head represents a King and a mountain, and a mountain represents a kingdom/empire, therefore a Head represents a Empire King and its Empire. The banking cartels are not an empire under an empire king. The pattern of 7 heads do not indicate a disimilarity but similarity, and this similarity is obvious, as I say: Empire under an Empire King. Not just 5, but all 7 of them. Where does it indicate otherwise?

Those are my questions/challenges, and I hope that you can answer them specifically.

God bless

No I do not see the Pope as the 7th head. Once again I understand the 7 heads as the periods of who rules over the majority of God's chosen people (Hebrews and Christians) between the time frames of Zedekiah to Jesus, the son's of David who is supposed to be ruling over us.

Zedekiah was replaced by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian Empire.

Issues are coming around again until the 7th head which controls the entire world, can control the buying and selling habits of everyone.

There are 3 correct ways of using the Bible (Dr.  these basic ways have been subdivided into 12 sub divisions which I am still learning) but for now the 3 major categories are all we need to know: First is exegeses which includes all we can learn about the author cultural, historical and geographical situation and ALL prophecies have LOCAL applications that could have or had smaller applications in that local time period. The Chapter in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" gives a good over view and we can apply that principle to every part of the Bible. People did not sit by the waters of Babylon and say "The Pope is coming" but saw these as current events or where current events would soon lead. People did not leave from the first reading of Revelation scratching their heads saying, this does not make any sense. Neither did they leave saying "The Pope is coming and after that the United States" They left saying "This is what God is doing now, here wow!"  These issues dealt with issues that God's people faced, and how God was giving them opportunities in their day to spread the gospel and how the world could have ended.

The second way is through "Analogy" looking at the exegeses and studying the issues and seeing how they apply over history. Things that they faced we will face similar things. Opportunities they had we will be offered similar ones. As we learn to reapply the principles over history. This is the "Historisist" school of Biblical interpretation. (sadly we did not have the tools and information of exegeses so many of the applications over history have not been the best, yet even with it's flaws we still had the principles that saw us through history.)

The third way is a homological use, which is basically using the language because the language fits the situation but is not really built on exegeses and not truly an analogy.

When you open up about how Revelation 17:10 says that five have fallen, one is and one is yet to come, there are 2 correct ways to understand this. The first are the issues that were going on in Rome and Asia minor at the time. The second way is through historical analogy and the angel is giving the time frame when to apply the events being told then.

I know that we say that there are 2 women in Revelation, the pure one and the impure one. But we see here 2 half's to the same story. The true church fled into the wilderness being chased by the dragon, but she comes back riding the partner of the dragon, the beast. The time where the true church turns into the prostitute is during the time frame where 5 have fallen one is and one is yet to come that will rule ONLY a SHORT time before the Lamb starts to rule.

For more study I strongly recommend the 3 readings: "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" from the SDA BC, "The Time of the End" by George McCready Price, http://www.amazon.com/Time-End-George-McCready-Price/dp/B0006BS1S6 and the last is harder to find but outstanding studies: the Last Day Events series from the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting.

Once again I see the 7 heads a corresponding to the 7 parts of the image in Daniel 2. Head one is the Head of gold, in exegeses Nebuchadnezzar, in analogy Babylon. Head 2 is the breast and arms of silver, Medeo-Persia, Head 3 is Greece head 4 is Rome. Instead of a whole new beast for the last 3 parts we find things happening with the 4th beast or in Daniel 2 we have the iron running to the end. First we find the iron mixed with clay. In the Bible clay represents what God works with. His church. Here we are not finding the clay, someone claiming to be God's people, not being molded by God as it should be, but being molded by earthly politics. Most of the Christians and Jews (those who should have been ruled by a son of David) have moved more out of the middle east to Europe. And we find Rome developing into the Holy Roman Empire. White the Pope was not the emperor at this time, he worked closely with the Holy Roman Empire and had a great deal of power with in it. In the crusades Joachim of Flore learned more about the culture of the Bible, the middle east. and was thus able to get closer to the true reading of the Bible. He may have been given the gift of prophecy. He made applications on how the church could complete the work in his day but laid down principles that could continue beyond if the church is not faithful. There was a Pope who came to see him as a true prophet. The Franciscans latched on to his prophecies and they applied it to say that the Pope was the antichrist. Although filtered through the Augustinians, his views evolved into the Protestant reformation. In the 1800s Christians began to down play the idea that he was a prophet because they wanted to limit prophets to Bible times so that Mrs. White would not be a prophet. But both Seventh-day Adventism and Evangelical Christianity are based on the ministry of Joachim of Flore. Seventh-day Adventists are a direct carry on of his work, and Dispensationalism is taking PART of what  said and building speculation and theories based on the speculations on only PART of what he said.

Anyway, the center of the worship of God: Judaism and Christianity, were under the rule of the Holy Roman Empire instead of a son of David. Even with the rise of Protestantism, you just had parts of the Empire being under the Roman Catholics and other parts under Reformed Catholics and both were under the Holy Roman Empire.  For them religious freedom was that under Roman Catholic areas you were allowed to be a Roman Catholic and under Reformed Catholic areas you were allowed to be a Reformed Catholic. Others such as Anabaptists were persecuted. The Puritans wanted to bring Puritan Reformed Catholicism to a place and came to New England.  But then there were two crazy men who did not really like each other. One was Roger Williams the other William Penn. These two men got the idea of separation of church and state. Williams believed that Quakers were heretics and would travel in cold weather for debates to show them as wrong. However in his state of Rhode Island Quakers were free to following their religion with out any persecution beyond having people like Williams talk about why they felt that the Quakers were wrong. And William Penn in Pennsylvania also did not have a state church but allowed all to come and worship according to the dictates of their conscience.

These ideas lead to the American Revolution, the idea that government should have only minimum control over people and that people should be free to follow the dictates of their own conscience and go after their own lives, liberty and the pursuit  of happiness.  A revolution based on the idea that freedom comes from good laws that protect it's people and our rights to pursue the life we want to live. Soon after there was another revolution in France. Thomas Jefferson was first excited about the French Revolution, but as time went by saw that it was so different from the American Revolution. While the American Revolution was based on good laws. The French Revolution was based on no laws. While the American Revolution was based on freedom for people, the French Revolution lead to chaos and then to oppression. Thus we moved from the feet of iron and clay to the toes of iron and clay. The Holy Roman Empire came to an end. Now God's people did not have an empire ruling over them. The deadly wound, the 6th head, the crowns are on the horns (little local kings) not on the head. Some countries taking the views of the American Revolution, others the French Revolution (which developed into Communism).

It is during this time where the church has fallen to Fundametalism and Dispensationalism. Thomas Jefferson believed in a free exchange of knowledge, including religious knowledge. Where there was an open market place where every religion was free to share what they believe and people free to accept of reject according to the dictates of their conscience and the strength of the evidence that the churches could give for their view. But sadly we are finding the typical Republican wanting to return to Catholic Europe only an Evangelical Christian church-state. where they use law to push their views and beliefs instead of just freedom of expression.  And the typical Democrat living under the French Revolution with wanting freedom from religion. Stifling the expression of religion. If you want to be religious then go and keep it in private but don't let me learn about what you believe. Thus destroying Williams', Penn's and Jefferson's view of an open market place of ideas. And the church starting to ride the beast.

In our evangelistic meetings we quote Daniel "They shall not cleave one to another" as saying that the nations of Europe will NEVER join together. The text does NOT say that. It does not say that they will not appear to join together, it only says that it will not work out but reign a short time before decorating to utter Chaos.

Some of the aspects of the last head is that as all the others is who is ruling over the majority of God's people. The last head will again be composed of iron and clay (political but an aspect calming to be following God), but it will not receive the kingdom in the usual way (geo-political conquest) but gets the kingdom by way of intrigue and it is focused on the merchants of the earth (the great banking and corporation cartels empire).

Christians are looking forward to the coming of Jesus but with Dispensationalism they are looking for Jesus to come when we are on the brink of war in the middle east and save the world. Muslims are looking for Jesus to come and prepare the world for Mohammad, and the Jews expecting the Messiah to come to Jerusalem. There could be a counterfeit that appears to be a rapture. And limited war in the middle east and just before it explodes "Jesus comes" and brings peace and supports the world empire of economic cooperation bringing about a time of peace and prosperity as never before. Since Christians, Jews and Muslims are already expecting Jesus to come to Jerusalem, this appearing will unite them. Eastern Religions are very individualistic but will unite over this event. Atheists and Secularists will experience "seeing is believing" and thus give up their atheism. But to maintain this peace everyone has to compromise some of their principles. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant between us and how we understand God to be. Just as in the days of Revelation God's people had to choose between worshiping the emperor and bowing in worship believing in worshiping the image. Others would appear to worship but they are only adjusting their sandal. Thus those who fully commit are receiving the mark in their foreheads, their frontal lobe, they choose to worship. Others don't choose to worship but want to look like they are going along because it is to their advantage to go along with the system. Satan claiming to be Jesus encourages this choice.

Too many people are depending on the fundamentalist views of inspiration. We tend not to have faith in the Bible, but in the Bible being this "special" book. Just as many Adventists saw Mrs. White in a "special" way. When Walter Rea pointed out that Mrs. White was very natural and did not see the special that the fundamentalists want, Adventists gave up on Mrs. White. The Walter Rea issue is a type of a fuller application as we learn that the Bible does not fit the Fundamentalist's views. What we saw with Walter Rea is a foretaste of what we are going to experience with the Bible.  Why trust in this untrustworthy book when we have "Jesus" and the "Bible writers" here with us and we can talk to them directly. Thus Christians and Jews would find it easier to ease their conscience about not following the Bible according to the dictates of their conscience because the Bible falls just as Mrs. White fell in the Walter Rea debate, and "Jesus" is telling them to go along with the system. Meanwhile while the world is on a spiritual high those who hold to their principles are going through the time of Jacob's trouble.

Again there appears a time of peace and prosperity such as never before. But Daniel's words "They shall not cleave one to another" spells the fate. It falls to total and utter chaos. Maybe some nuclear warheads go off and it goes from a short period of the best times to the worst times in history. The blame is placed on those who did not go along with the system. Since they were miserable with the time of Jacob's trouble, just put them out of their misery and thus restore the system. But as they are to kill us, and as earth is ready to no longer support life, there appears in the east a cloud about half the size of a man's hand....

[hch]

It is difficult to make sense of all these posts about the 7 heads in Revelation 17.

In Revelation 12 the beast is the dragon, Satan and the heads are clearly the 6 pagan nations and the papacy that Satan worked through to destroy Christ.

In Revelation 13, the context begins by saying that one of the beast's heads is wounded and the wounded head is healed. Thus the beast is presented as though it was in its pre-wounded state, when it was wounded, and when the wound was healed.

In the pre-wounded state who can identify the beast or the heads with certainty? But when the wound is inflicted it is papal: the Pius head (Pius VI) received the wound and the Pius head (Pius XI) received the healing.

Thus in the context of the wounding, the beast in Revelation 13 is locked to 1798. And The healed beast is post-1798.

Is the beast in Revelation 17 a repeat and enlarge commentary on a pre-1798  or a post-1798 beast?

The beast in Revelation 17 is not the pre-1798 beast! It is a healed post-1798 beast that links to Rev 14:9

Notice the woman's forehead. 

The woman sitting on the beast has "upon her forehead was a name written,

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:5)

Name: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT

Office: THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS

Territory: THE EARTH

The woman has the endtime mark of the beast upon which she is riding on her forehead

 not the mark of some ancient kingdom

Can the trees not be seen because of the context: they are too numerous in the forest?
 

[8thdaypriest]

I understand that "the Beast" has heads, but WHO IS THE BEAST? 

In Revelation 17:8  "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."  

At the time these words were spoke to the prophet John, the beast was not.  What does this mean?  There WAS no beast at the time these words were spoken to John.  I thought Rome was the 6th head, and definitely existed at that time. 

Satan - if he is "the beast", "will ascend out of the bottomless pit" when he is released by Christ after 1000 years - at the start of the 8th millennium.  So is Satan "the beast", and he acts thru different kingdoms to fight against the people of God?

[8thdaypriest]

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits" (Rev. 17:9).

This sentence seems to be in present tense (at the time of John's revelation).  This makes it seem that ALL of the "heads" (mountains) exist simultaneously, and the "woman" was sitting on those mountains - IN JOHN'S DAY.  The papacy (sitting on the 7 hilled city of Rome) did not yet exist - in John's day.    But the city of Jerusalem did exist, and it did sit on 7 hills.  

7 hills of Jerusalem:  

hill #1:  the northern summit - called Scopus

hill #2:  the middle summit - called Nob

hill #3:  the highest point of Olivet - called in Scripture "the Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offense"

hill #4:  the original "Mount Zion", on the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys

hill #5:  "Ophel Mount"

hill #6:  "the Rock" on which Fort Antonia was built, just to the north of Ophel Mount

hill #7:  the southwest hill itself that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion"

YES - the later "Mount Zion" was NOT the original.  

The woman is called a "great harlot".  Well - Israel was "married" to the LORD at Mt Sinai.  The LORD called His covenant a marriage - to Israel, which is WHY idolatry was called adultery.  Which is why he "divorced" the 10 northern tribes.  Jerusalem is used in Scripture, to represent the whole nation.  Jerusalem - the harlot that persecuted the saints and killed the prophets, SITS on SEVEN HILLS. 

Rev. 17:10 reads, "There are ALSO seven kings.  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come.  And when he comes he must continue a SHORT TIME." 

This - to me - reads like the "seven heads" and the "seven kings" are different entities.  With the "kings", five ARE FALLEN - past tense.  "One is" - present tense (in John's day), and one is yet to come - future tense.  With the heads, they all seem to exist at the same time. 

[hch]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I understand that "the Beast" has heads, but WHO IS THE BEAST? 

In Revelation 17:8  "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."  

At the time these words were spoke to the prophet John, the beast was not.  What does this mean?  There WAS no beast at the time these words were spoken to John.  I thought Rome was the 6th head, and definitely existed at that time. 

Satan - if he is "the beast", "will ascend out of the bottomless pit" when he is released by Christ after 1000 years - at the start of the 8th millennium.  So is Satan "the beast", and he acts thru different kingdoms to fight against the people of God?

8thday,

Some thoughts:

To correctly answer your question, WHO IS THE BEAST?

John's writing style factors in.

John 11:26  "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die." Is an example.

whosoever = everybody (that is alive and believeth in Me shall never die).

When John quoted Jesus, he was not quoting Him to say that

everyone alive and hearing Jesus would never give up the breath and never be put in their grave prior to Christ's Coming

So what is John writing in Revelation 17:8?

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

Is Revelation 17:8 saying:

"The beast that you saw was [in the past?], and is not [currently?], and will ascend [in the future?] out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

Or is Revelation 17:8  saying:

"The beast that you saw was [at one time?], and is not [for a period?], and will ascend [before his is destroyed?] out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

John repeats himself later to clarify his meaning.

Revelation 20:3  "And cast him [Satan, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, who is going to perdition ] into the bottomless pit [the one that was], and shut him up [while he is not loose], and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled [when he will be loosed again as he once was]: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Christian regards

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, hch said:

8thday,

Some thoughts:

To correctly answer your question, WHO IS THE BEAST?

John's writing style factors in.

John 11:26  "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die." Is an example.

whosoever = everybody (that is alive and believeth in Me shall never die).

When John quoted Jesus, he was not quoting Him to say that

everyone alive and hearing Jesus would never give up the breath and never be put in their grave prior to Christ's Coming

So what is John writing in Revelation 17:8?

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

Is Revelation 17:8 saying:

"The beast that you saw was [in the past?], and is not [currently?], and will ascend [in the future?] out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

Or is Revelation 17:8  saying:

"The beast that you saw was [at one time?], and is not [for a period?], and will ascend [before his is destroyed?] out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

John repeats himself later to clarify his meaning.

Revelation 20:3  "And cast him [Satan, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, who is going to perdition ] into the bottomless pit [the one that was], and shut him up [while he is not loose], and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled [when he will be loosed again as he once was]: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Christian regards

In your opinion - Satan IS "the beast'.  I agree.  Just wondering how many others here agree. 

Concerning Jesus statement:  I believe Jesus was speaking of the "second death".  The first type of death - physical death - is only a "sleep".  Jesus said, concerning the dead, "for all live to Him" (to God).  All live to God, because He can simply wake them up.  Once the essence of wicked persons - their "spirit", once that is destroyed in the special "lake of fire", then those people will NOT EXIST to God.  THAT is "death" in the true sense.   THAT is the "death" which believers will "never die". 

[hch]

6 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This - to me - reads like the "seven heads" and the "seven kings" are different entities.  With the "kings", five ARE FALLEN - past tense.  "One is" - present tense (in John's day), and one is yet to come - future tense.  With the heads, they all seem to exist at the same time. 

8thday

Lest we forget:

Rev_17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev_21:10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Thus "One is" - present tense (in the endtime day that John was carried to by the Spirit in which he was seeing the prophecy fulfilled), and one is yet to come - future tense [after the time in John's future when the 6th head reigned] .

 

Christian regards

[hch]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In your opinion - Satan IS "the beast'.  I agree.  Just wondering how many others here agree. 

Concerning Jesus statement:  I believe Jesus was speaking of the "second death".  The first type of death - physical death - is only a "sleep".  Jesus said, concerning the dead, "for all live to Him" (to God).  All live to God, because He can simply wake them up.  Once the essence of wicked persons - their "spirit", once that is destroyed in the special "lake of fire", then those people will NOT EXIST to God.  THAT is "death" in the true sense.   THAT is the "death" which believers will "never die". 

I agree on the points you made here.

But the death example is good for my illustration.

Not knowing what John's meaning was; lots of folks have a hard time putting it together.

(As with Revelation 17)

That's why we need the Holy Spirit to help us to understand what He inspired to be written

I don't worry so much about what other folks believe.

Give 'em the truth as I understand it.

If they enlighten me with something I did not understand PRAISE GOD!

And if they weary of my pearls, I won't be so generous with sharing them.

 Regarding the mountains/heads being concurrent.

The lives of the popes that ruled from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013 overlapped

In prophetic symbolism it is difficult to find a symbol to show consecutive kings.

There are other beasts in Daniel and Revelation with horns that are focused on in a sequence.

Christian regards

[hch]

19 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In your opinion - Satan IS "the beast'.  I agree.

I do agree BUT that is too simple an explanation for such a complex prophecy.

In Rev 12 Satan is identified as the beast. 6 heads are consecutive pagan kingdoms.

The 7th is the papacy that becomes a beast with 7 heads in Rev 13.

Many of the characteristics of these beast look alike, and some features are different.

And as I read Rev 17, it is the papal beast with 7 popes: Pius XI to Benedict XVI.

John-Paul II is the one that is. Benedict is the one that followed for a short space according to Babylonian reckoning.

And for John-Paul II, who is of the 7 to be the 8th (Satan the original beast has to personate him)

I put the details in another thread about Satan personating Jesus.  

Thus the last 2 great deceptions:

The body of John-Paul II is in its Vatican Crypt -- and if he says:

"Touch me. Feel me. This is my spiritual body..."

"When I was with you, I gave you Dies Domini but you cold not understand it then..."

Thus the beast (Satan) goes through his metamorphosis:

The beast that was (Satan), the beast that is not (the papacy is standing in for Satan), and the beast that is to come (Satan).

All of this and so much more is in my new book-- The great Controversy: Earth's Gran Finale

Christian regards 

[8thdaypriest]

I think it possible that the Vatican/Pope will play a part in the final events, but I think it more likely the Pope will serve as "the False Prophet" rather than the 7th head of the Beast itself.  The Papacy would have to rule the entire world, if it becomes the 7th head.  Everyone would have to worship/serve the Papacy.  I just don't see that.  

Just reading thru Revelation 13 again.  The Beast's "deadly wound" was "by the sword".   This could be either the "sword of truth" OR it could be a literal weapon of war. 

In 13:11 the lamb-like beast rises "out of the earth".  The words translated as "the earth" are the same words translated as "the land" - meaning the land promised to Abraham.  I think it POSSIBLE that the lamb-like beast rises from Jerusalem, or at least from the current nation of Israel. 

The lamb-like beast "performs great signs" even making fire come down from heaven" (obviously empowered by Satan).   By these signs he deceives men to do what he says. 

Personally, I believe the lamb-like beast IS "the false prophet".   (I don't believe he is Satan himself, BECAUSE he is thrown into the lake of fire, whereas Satan himself is not.) 

The lamb-like beast tells those on earth to "make an image to the Beast".  THEN he gives power to that image. 

THEN the image causes all to worship/serve the Beast (with the 7 heads and 10 horns).  The image then causes everyone to take "the mark".   So the image comes "alive" in some sense.

The image is a copy of the Beast (with 7 heads and 10 horns). 

17:11 says "the beast . . . is himself the 8th" head.  In the 8th "head" we see the full flowering of the Beast power.  In the image (which rules everywhere, over everyone) we also see the full flowering of the Beast power.  I'm thinking the "image" (exact copy) of the Beast IS "the 8th head".  And it comes into being because of the lamb-like beast, who rises "out of the land". 

In 16:13-14:  3 entities are named, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 

The dragon (Satan) gives power, thrown, and great authority TO the Beast.  Which means the Beast cannot actually be Satan, but only an agency OF Satan. 

In 19:20:  only 2 entities - the beast and the false prophet - are "cast alive into the lake of fire".  This BECAUSE Satan (the dragon) is only imprisoned in "the pit" for 1000 years. 

 

 

 

[Thomas the Doubter]

News of Suicide Bombings in Belgium

What a grave day for Europe and the West. A grave day. Again. And again. There is no end to the onslaught. Islamic State has struck yet again!!! Absolute chaos in Belgium, with another double suicide bomb attack in the heart of the capital, as the Islamic Caliphate encroaches nearer and nearer to world dominion. And yet the Western world is still sleeping. Sleeping. And that includes Adventists. The planet abounds with atrocities, persecutions of minority groups (Christians, Yazidis) and women, wars, nuclear threat, chemical warfare, global terrorism, cultural and demographic invasion, institutional control of the narrative that is ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, and of which are all perpetrated by the burgeoning Islamic Empire. All the while, state, secular and religious leaders across the planet are crippled by their sheer lack of will to confront the source of the problem, as well as their fear of offending an increasingly hostile Islamic world that is on the offensive.

The Power of the Islamic Empire: Past and Present

The Islamic civilization is not given the credit they are due. In the past they have been responsible for “the fastest feat of empire building the world has ever seen” (Waldemar Januszczak, The Dark Ages: An Age of Light, ‘The Wonder of Islam,’ (ZCZ, BBC, 2012)). They spawned an empire “far larger than the Roman Empire” (Andrew Marr, History of the World, (BBC, Discovery Channel, Open University, 2012)). They maintained their empire dynasties for 1300 years (622-1924). They even excelled to become “the fear of Europe” (Eugene Rogan, The Ottomans: Europe’s Muslim Emperors, (BBC, 2013)), and masters of the civilised world. Today they are sophisticated, determined, experienced, well-trained, rich, well-financed, armed, powerful, and deadly. Ignoring this reality, this experience, this history, this religious zeal and utter determination, this totalitarian vision and eschatological worldview, will be at the West’s and Christianity’s peril. It is therefore not difficult by any stretch of the imagination to envision a “great falling away” as predicted by Paul (2 Th. 4.3), with so many Christians ever comfortable in their theological armchairs, musing fantasies suited to their own biases, but are unphased by the reality sweeping the planet. Many might think that the falling away will be voluntary. Well, since when did despotic totalitarian regimes – like the Nazis or the Communists – make submission voluntary? Especially ones like Saudi Wahhabism, Islamic State, the Iranian Revolution, and the Neo-Ottoman Turkish regime of Recep Tayyip Erdogan? They don’t ask. They just force upon pain of imprisonment, torture or death.

Islamists have already implanted themselves all over the Western world in an ever-growing list of governmental, social and cultural institutions, even at the highest levels at the highest organizations (the United Nations through the O.I.C. (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation), and the Obama Administration (through the Muslim Brotherhood) are but two). The world is ripe for takeover since there are few real voices fighting to tell or facing the truth about the reality facing our planet. And yet, even those few (names like Douglas Murray, Melanie Phillips, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders, and the like) are drowned out by the majority of deluded political, intellectual, cultural, religious, and media elites.

Adventism’s Inability to Stop the Islamic Steamroller

Still, yet still, even here on this very discussion, views abound that seem born from the minds of children, out of touch with the actual reality that goes on every day in real life, even today as Brussels gets attacked, and Europe’s Migrant Crisis reaches breaking point, with European leaders now turning to the Neo-Ottoman Sultan of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for salvation. Those who don’t face this Islamic juggernaut will be simply swept away. I’ve personally seen how powerful the Islamic bulldozer is even against Adventists.

Here in London, I was one of the first members of Adventist Muslim Relations in the South England Conference – the Islamic outreach department of the General Conference – which was gradually being bequeathed to Petras Bahadhur from its former President Gerald Whitehouse. I also helped co-organize some of its early outreach events. I was a strong believer in the department at the time, and was most ardent in helping Petras. Petras himself comes from Pakistan and is all too aware of the dangers and threats of Islam. In fact, he predicted in the early 2000s, that the AMR department will be the most relevant department in the GC. He wasn’t wrong there in the sense that Islam has become the dominant force in geopolitical and religious affairs. And even here, at the heart of AMR’s methodology, training, and outreach events, we were rendered helpless against Islam. The basic motto that went through all training was ‘don’t offend the Muslim.’ No matter what other knowledge was brought to the table this crippling axiom disabled us in everything we did, particularly when speaking about Jesus. And there was no help in telling us how we were to share the core message about Him after being told not to offend Muslims.

At one training weekend/week our leaders did not even want to berate Islam when trainees asked such questions about its evil actions – it was those trainees with objections who were berated instead. As they had invited Muslims into the training event, no one could talk openly. Even invited guest speakers who were non-Adventist Christians started to challenge the leaders. One openly corrected them on the mike in the Q&A saying, “You cannot say Islam is from God my friend,” or words to that effect – and that was coming from former Muslims that once persecuted Christians, who converted to Christianity.

When we went to a so-called ‘interfaith dialogue’ event (really it’s a one-way conversation), at the Shia Islamic Centre of England, Islamic leaders would rant on about irrelevant topics (like the inferiority of women), and our Adventist leaders would have no real reply, except that we should all work together and respect one another. But on the ground after the talks I could see those very same Islamic speakers challenge our leaders to which there was no real reply. And our leaders thought this was progress.

Later, disillusioned with Adventism as a whole, I would leave the department, but would come back for one last time since I heard that the famous debater Jay Smith (famous in the U.K. anyway – although he’s an American paradoxically) would come and give a lecture at the Advent Centre in Central London Church. It was a great lecture by the way. Extremely insightful into Qur’anic vs New Testament manuscripts, the main arguments of Muslims, the answers to them, tackling the person of Jesus with Muslims, and so forth. This is coming from a veteran who virtually lives at a place called ‘Speakers’ Corner’ – this is the famous London spot where everyone can say what they want about anything at all, but to which Muslims have now virtually taken over. At the end of the lecture and as part of the training events of the day, Petras would have us all go along to Speakers’ Corner and debate/discuss with Muslims. ‘That doesn’t seem like a good idea,’ I thought, seeing that real training takes time, and yet these guys would be thrown into the fire after one session! What was going on?!

What happened when we got there? Firstly, most Adventists didn’t go anyway. Those that did were not kept together by Petras in an effective group that could support one another. Rather, we were left to our own devices, and scattered, only to be surrounded by organised mobs of Muslim propagators, who were verbally armed, raucous, boisterous, male only (God help the non-Muslim women who tried to reply), amassed in huge numbers, and it was like a verbal slaughter. There wasn’t any real difference we were going to make. One image that stuck in my mind was one youngster who looked like he was surrounded by ravenous wolves. It was literally a crowd, huddled in, where you could not move because it was so tight (yet we were in open park space). They taunted him loudly, laughed like he was part of the entertainment, and while he was able to take it, he made no clear coherent sense, no real arresting thought-through reply that would appeal to any Muslim mind. I too faced staunch opposition, debating one man after another, only to be finally faced with their ultimate weapon – a former Christian. That was something I wasn’t prepared for, and I finally lost my cool, being incensed at the arguments I didn’t anticipate and the audacity of his betrayal. From a distance I saw Petras also struggling, seemingly bewildered in the overwhelming crowd. Basically, they won the day, as with every day. And whilst you might think that doesn’t matter to God, it does matter to the many who watch on, and are converted or convinced by the power of Islam, and that indeed does matter to God.

The Final Verdict

A few things I came away with. They knew how to defeat Christianity’s core claims. Adventists/Christians didn’t know how to defend it. The battlefield was taken by them. And their boldness, their forcefulness, their sheer power, and strength of numbers won the day, and is winning many young people everyday in Britain, and across Europe, because there simply is no reply by-in-large from the Christian world. There are many steps to world conquest. Indoctrination is the first. And they are good at it. Combined with having the win of numbers demographically in the West and against Christianity, they will eventually not need to persuade anyone. There will only remain two options: ‘convert or die’. And world events, including the Belgium suicide bombings, the German sexual crimes, the Paris slaughter, the Tunisian tourist attacks, the Russian airplane downing, the Global Persecution of Christian on an unprecedented unfathomable scale, are already telling us that this is happening. Wake up Adventist world. Your theological worldviews are out-of-date. The Islamic Antichrist is already taking over. Open your eyes. I would normally say before it’s too late. But It’s already becoming too late.