Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 15/03/2016 at 7:34 PM, JoeMo said:

That being said, I find Thomas' and my scenario much less convoluted and "fantastic" than yours.

The Papal Antichrist: The Most Unlikely Scenario

Joe is exactly spot on. And here’s where I want to ask anyone who believes in a Papal Antichrist a very simple question:

What evidence at present do you have, that will make the scenario of the Pope taking over the world in any way plausible?

In other words, what actual steps in the real world have been taken by the Papacy to ensure such a scenario plays out?

The reason I ask is because in the real world, as any historian knows, such a conquest is determined by brutality, violence, as well as economic, political and military power. Is there anything that the Pope is now doing, or has recently done, that is akin to this? He might be a likeable character (I personally like him!), but his ailing condition and his call for world peace (amongst many other social and environmental calls for reform) are hardly the ingredients for world conquest. When was the last time you heard of a conqueror who became a conqueror through ailments and talking of world peace? Even Vladimir Putin looks a more respectable Antichrist candidate than the Pope, although of course I don’t believe he is the Antichrist (incidentally, I do believe in Russia’s political and military power in the world, its encroaching power plays, and its effect on history, Europe and the Middle East – I just don’t think he’s the one the Bible is naming the Antichrist given the criteria, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe he is one of the important players in world events – good or bad).

I once listened to speaker Hal Meyer, one of the founders of the Hartland Institute, a conservative Adventist seminary/college in the United States, on his visit to London. He was a profound speaker, a moving speaker, and one that electrified the congregation. I was deeply moved, and my spirit was on fire. He spoke like I believed since I did not hear any local pastor speaking in the same way, but which I longed to. He talked about end-time events like it was free-flowing water, but from a huge gorge. He sounded like Ellen White wrote! And he promised to give a full talk in the afternoon on the political manoeuvrings and power plays that were being made which were allegedly bringing the Papal Antichrist scenario to fruition (at this point, I was very much a believer in the Papal Antichrist since I was a very staunch conservative). He led us on with a lot of end-time rhetoric that continued to stir us profoundly (the atmosphere was palpable and the ‘amens’ couldn’t cease). But by the time he got to telling us about all those so-called political Papal power plays, by the time he got to the end of it, he says it was all a dud effectively. It’s not happening. I was deeply disappointed. Disappointed that the Papal Antichrist wasn’t happening, and disappointed to be told that it was, only to be told later that it wasn’t.

Of course, I no longer believe that and most other things that I was raised to believe. But my reason for mentioning it is to illustrate something that will always confront Papal Antichrist believers. No matter how much you believe it, no matter how many times it is said, you will always be short of evidence in the real world. And that is because of one simple reason: because it isn’t actually happening. You can hope it will happen, like I did. But you will have to wait until the Kingdom comes – of course by then it will be too late. The historical and present evidence doesn’t fit.

So here’s a word of advice from someone who did believe in it, unreservedly: start with the evidence first and then build to a conclusion; do not start with a conclusion and then try to fit everything into it – you will simply find yourself contriving to fit a misrepresentation of the world into a theory, rather than fitting a conclusion to the real world evidence.

Here’s a last thought/challenge for you to ponder. If the Pope is the Antichrist, how on earth will he be able to get the 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet to swear allegiance to him or worship him, etc.? How will they be convinced that Jesus is God when that is the most unforgivable sin in Islam, let alone believe that the Pope would be. And they certainly don’t fear him. Why would they when the have huge military prowess, nukes, suicidal and genocidal tendencies, and the promise of virgin paradise? In fact, part of their belief is to take over Rome! Something to think about.

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 20/03/2016 at 6:14 PM, hch said:

The Roman Empire fell when it divided into the Eastern and the Western Roman Empire.

hch,

I don't know if you see it but you are contradicting yourself continually. I think you might simply be confused or blinded by your commitment to your theory. But you're not using your reasoning faculties at all.

You say that the Roman Empire fell when it divided (395) (which it didn't actually, not even the Western half), but that contradicts what you said when you said it fell in 476! And then you go on to talk over and over about the Eastern Roman Emperor, which you said made surrogates after 508. He was a Roman emperor. Obviously of the Roman Empire! What else would he be emperor of? And this would prove that the Roman Empire didn't fall in 476. Don't you see, you yourself are saying that the Roman Empire existed even after 508 contradicting your own claims that it fell earlier, but supportiing my premise that the Roman Empire continued on in the Eastern Roman Empire. This lasted all the way to 1453. This was when it truly ended, which was executed by Sultan Mehmed II The Conqueror of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Thus, from what you say yourself, my premise is verified. Surely you can see that from your own words you already agree with my proposition. Your choice to refuse the natural conclusion is up to you, but I think my case can safely be put to rest. 

God bless

[Alchemy]

On March 1, 2016 at 7:32 PM, hch said:

The 7-headed beast in Revelation 12:

Timeframe in Rev 12:

FACT:
Before Satan was on earth

Rev 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

It was a wonder that Satan could appear in Heaven (where God dwells) or in the starry heaven.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Fact:
The symbolic PREGNANT woman standing on the moon depicts Israel & its 12 tribes before the Manchild was born.

Rev 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;

a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Rev 12:2 "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

FACTS:
There were about 1260-years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth

The 7 heads in Rev 12 align with the powers that tried to kill the Manchild

1) Egypt issued a death decree to kill the Manchild
2) Assyria annihilated Israel and tried to do the same to Judah (to kill the Manchild)
3) Babylon castrated men in David's line to prevent the Manchild's birth
4) Medo-Persia had a universal Jewish death decree (to kill the Manchild)
5) Greece under Antiochus IV persecuted the Jews (to kill the Manchild)
6) Pagan Rome - Herod tried to kill the Manchild in Bethlehem
7) Pagan Rome killed the Manchild, who arose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

Papal Rome tried to kill the Manchild's people for 1260-years after Christ ascended to Heaven
and that is enlarged and explained in Rev 13

FACT:
After the Manchild ascends to heaven, the meaning of Revelation 12 is repeated in Rev 13

FACTS:
The papal beast in Rev 13 is described in similar terms as the beast in Rev 12
Both beasts are allotted 1260-years/days to war against the Manchild
 

If you believe that the Facts relating to Rev. 12 are not correctly stated please address the FACTS

and let me know why you see them differently

I currently have plenty on my plate and cannot take time to consider this topic all over the map

Christian regards

hch 

Blessings hch,

I have been reading the Book of Micah lately and I believe Micah 4:10 and 5:3 may tell us when the travailing started. It seems to have started when Jerusalem was conquered by Babylon if I'm understanding these verses correctly. I believe the Dragon in Revelation 12 gave his power to the beast in Revelation 13:2. So, the Dragon and the beast are two different entities. But, I do believe the beast of Revelation 13 and 17 are one in the same.

 

[Alchemy]

On March 7, 2016 at 1:33 PM, hch said:

This is the question:

Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?   

In Revelation 12 the heads were Satan ruling the 6 pagan nations and the papacy.

In Revelation 13 the heads were individuals (popes/kings)

1. Pius XI
2. Pius XII
3. John XXIII
4. Paul VI
5. John-Paul I
6. John-Paul II
7. Benedict XVI

And in a secondary sense in Revelation 13 the heads were the pope's names

1. Pius
2. John
3. Paul
4. John-Paul
5. Benedict
6. Francis
7. Pending

In Revelation 17 are the heads pagan nations or individuals?

"The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
And there are seven kings" (Rev 17:9-10) 

the original language makes it clear:

"The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
EVEN SO THEY ARE seven kings" (Rev 17:9-10) 

Thus the beast is the papacy. The seven kings are the 7 popes. And the woman is Apostate Protestantism.

1. Pius XI
2. Pius XII
3. John XXIII
4. Paul VI
5. John-Paul I
6. John-Paul II
7. Benedict XVI

Benedict is the one that ruled for a short space.

7 is the number of completeness.

Babylonian custom dictates that the king in office on new years day gets credit for the entire year

Babylon's New Year is 29 March on the Gregorian Calendar

John-Paul II was king/pope 29 March 2005 (he died 2 April 2005) 2005 was his last year

Benedict's Accession year was from April 2005-28 March 2006

Benedict's reign was 29 March 2006 to 28 February 2013 (a month and day short of completeness=a short space)

To change the heads of the beast in Rev 17 from individuals into kingdoms is "Ignoring the Biblical Explanation in Rev. 17"

By allowing the passage to explain itself, I was able to understand that Benedict would not be pope

AFTER THE SPRING OF 2013 -- Thus I confidently announced in 2011 that 2012 was his last year.

"He might last till the spring of 2013"

The presentation of this other stuff looks really professional, but it is not much more than window dressing  

 

The Bible clearly states that the woman in "Babylon the Great"! Also, you don't mention Francis I as the eighth pope. Why not?

I have never found the Bible to teach the seven popes idea for Revelation 17.

[hch]

8 hours ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

hch,

I don't know if you see it but you are contradicting yourself continually. I think you might simply be confused or blinded by your commitment to your theory. But you're not using your reasoning faculties at all.

You say that the Roman Empire fell when it divided (395) (which it didn't actually, not even the Western half), but that contradicts what you said when you said it fell in 476! And then you go on to talk over and over about the Eastern Roman Emperor, which you said made surrogates after 508. He was a Roman emperor. Obviously of the Roman Empire! What else would he be emperor of? And this would prove that the Roman Empire didn't fall in 476. Don't you see, you yourself are saying that the Roman Empire existed even after 508 contradicting your own claims that it fell earlier, but supportiing my premise that the Roman Empire continued on in the Eastern Roman Empire. This lasted all the way to 1453. This was when it truly ended, which was executed by Sultan Mehmed II The Conqueror of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Thus, from what you say yourself, my premise is verified. Surely you can see that from your own words you already agree with my proposition. Your choice to refuse the natural conclusion is up to you, but I think my case can safely be put to rest. 

God bless

Thomas.

Since you are trying to fit what I wrote into what you are teaching, no wonder you are having difficulty.

It is not so difficult to follow in context. But out of context, how would you expect it to make sense?

Christian regards

[hch]

5 hours ago, Alchemy said:

Blessings hch,

I have been reading the Book of Micah lately and I believe Micah 4:10 and 5:3 may tell us when the travailing started. It seems to have started when Jerusalem was conquered by Babylon if I'm understanding these verses correctly. I believe the Dragon in Revelation 12 gave his power to the beast in Revelation 13:2. So, the Dragon and the beast are two different entities. But, I do believe the beast of Revelation 13 and 17 are one in the same.

 

Mic 4:10  "Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies."

Rev 11:8  "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

In what city was our Lord crucified? Isn't that city is being called Egypt?

Mic 5:3 "Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth [the time=1260-years from Egyptian Exodus until Christ was born]: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel."

"Dragon and the beast are two different entities"

This is true, but the dragon is, is not, and is again.

And the dragon gives his seat etc. to the beast.

Christian regards

 

[hch]

5 hours ago, Alchemy said:

The Bible clearly states that the woman in "Babylon the Great"! Also, you don't mention Francis I as the eighth pope. Why not?

I have never found the Bible to teach the seven popes idea for Revelation 17.

Alchemy,

The Bible clearly states that the woman in "Babylon the Great"!  Really?

Rev 17:5  "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

The papacy is identified as Babylon. The beast is the papacy. Isn't it the name of the beast that is on the woman's forehead?

"I have never found the Bible to teach the seven popes idea for Revelation 17."

you should look again.

Christian regards

 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, hch said:

The papacy is identified as Babylon. The beast is the papacy. Isn't it the name of the beast that is on the woman's forehead?

 

Show me the scripture where it says the papacy is Babylon.  An EGW quote won't cut it.

3 hours ago, hch said:

and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,

If "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT" is written on the woman's forehead, wouldn't that be her name rather than the name of the beast?

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/21/2016 at 11:09 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits" (Rev. 17:9).

This sentence seems to be in present tense (at the time of John's revelation).  This makes it seem that ALL of the "heads" (mountains) exist simultaneously, and the "woman" was sitting on those mountains - IN JOHN'S DAY.  The papacy (sitting on the 7 hilled city of Rome) did not yet exist - in John's day.    But the city of Jerusalem did exist, and it did sit on 7 hills.  

7 hills of Jerusalem:  

hill #1:  the northern summit - called Scopus

hill #2:  the middle summit - called Nob

hill #3:  the highest point of Olivet - called in Scripture "the Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offense"

hill #4:  the original "Mount Zion", on the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys

hill #5:  "Ophel Mount"

hill #6:  "the Rock" on which Fort Antonia was built, just to the north of Ophel Mount

hill #7:  the southwest hill itself that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion"

YES - the later "Mount Zion" was NOT the original.  

The woman is called a "great harlot".  Well - Israel was "married" to the LORD at Mt Sinai.  The LORD called His covenant a marriage - to Israel, which is WHY idolatry was called adultery.  Which is why he "divorced" the 10 northern tribes.  Jerusalem is used in Scripture, to represent the whole nation.  Jerusalem - the harlot that persecuted the saints and killed the prophets, SITS on SEVEN HILLS. 

Rev. 17:10 reads, "There are ALSO seven kings.  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come.  And when he comes he must continue a SHORT TIME." 

This - to me - reads like the "seven heads" and the "seven kings" are different entities.  With the "kings", five ARE FALLEN - past tense.  "One is" - present tense (in John's day), and one is yet to come - future tense.  With the heads, they all seem to exist at the same time. 

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The great harlot sits ON many waters (Rev. 17:1).  The "waters" are "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (17:15).

She commits fornication with the kings of the earth - 7 of them - (Rev. 17:2) so much so that the people on earth became drunk with the wine resulting from this fornication.  She had already committed fornication with 5 kings (in John's day) was committing fornication with a 6th in John's time, and would (future) commit fornication with a 7th before being destroyed (17:9).

The harlot's name is Babylon the Great (Rev. 17:5). 

The woman was drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Rev. 17:6).

John was absolutely amazed when he saw her (Rev. 17:6).

The harlot sits ON 7 hills (Rev 17:9).

The harlot sits ON the Beast (17:3).

The harlot  is the "great city" which rules over the kings of the earth (17:15).  

So the harlot is a "great city" that sits on 7 hills, and she rules over kings, and she commits fornication with kings.  Hmmmmm.

Did not the King of Jerusalem (rather than submitting to Yahweh) enter into treaties with (paying tribute to) several foreign nations?  Egypt, Babylon, and Rome come immediately to mind, but I'm thinking there were others.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 13:15 He (the lamb-like beast from "the land") was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (NKJ)

Giving it "breath" means giving it LIFE.  If it breathes it is ALIVE. 

The IMAGE of the Beast comes alive!!  It speaks.  It causes everyone to take the mark.  It causes those who will not worship it to be killed. 

EXCUSE ME.  The image of the Beast IS THE 8TH HEAD !!!!!!

It is certainly "of the seven" because it is an "image" - a copy of.  It's like the Beast is resurrected - in the copy.

Does anyone else see this? 

[Kevin H]

But in Bible typography mountains represent the holy mountains. Each empire had it's own sacred mountain. In Zion it is Mt. Zion. In Greece it is Mt. Olympic. Babylon which was flat built their sacred mountain, the tower of Babel. Thus again indicating empires.

 

[Thomas the Doubter]

Saudi Arabia: The Mother Ideology of All Islamists

Saudi Arabia Uncovered, (ITV, 2016) [click to watch video before it gets taken down]

Since there has been some debate here regarding the economic power of the Western Banks versus the Power of Islam’s Oil, I thought it would be extremely pertinent to post this link on a brilliant ITV undercover documentary released only three days ago (incidentally on the day of the horrific Belgium twin suicide bombings). Click the link at the top of this page. Below are some highlights.

It dramatically exposed the Saudi Kingdom’s Wahhabist ideology and its export of it around the world, as well as its financial support for terrorism globally, coupled with the power of its oil and the west’s addiction for it – the effect of which has made western leaders to this day turn a blind eye to its terrorist and despotic activity.

So powerful is this Oil Kingdom – the biggest exporter of oil no less, making the Saudi Royal Family alone worth several trillion pounds – that as of the end of last year, it was made Chair of the Human Rights Council at the U.N. As you will see from the documentary, the Saudi Kingdom is hardly a great paragon of human rights, but in fact the complete opposite. It is no more different than ISIS, and is in fact the mother of ISIS ideology. The alleged power of Western banks have no sway over these Kings of Black Gold. And this is on top of its control of OPEC that control the price of oil, and OIC that is the biggest block at the U.N. pushing for the protection of Islam against defamation (which is unsurprisingly a sharia tenet, effectively making the U.N. and eventually its member states sharia-compliant).

It of course plays a dangerous two-faced game of pretentiously fighting terrorism as a façade to the wider western world on the one hand (it claims superficially to be the West’s ally after all), whilst practising and exporting Islamist ideology and terrorism on the other. How long this can last no one knows. But one thing we can know: as long as the West is addicted to oil, those petrodollars will continue to fund the Saudi state, who in turn will fund more terrorism (through Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, Islamic State to name but a famous few) and export more Islamist ideology (through the Muslim Brotherhood among others), and therefore the growth of the Islamic Empire will continue unabated.

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 23/03/2016 at 7:00 PM, hch said:

Since you are trying to fit what I wrote into what you are teaching, no wonder you are having difficulty.

hch,

On the contrary, I'm not having difficulty. My central point was simply verified, that the Roman Empire continued after 476, which you agree with by saying that there was a Roman Emperor in 508. And this supports my thesis which is that the Roman Empire continued up until 1453 only to be conquered by the Islamic Empire of the Ottoman Dynasty. I'll leave it at that, as I don't want to press too forcefully (as I did in that last response - the outrage and drama of recent events in Belgium moved me in a more dramatic mode). I'll just leave you to think about the evidence. That should be enough to speak for itself. The choice will be yours obviously. 

God bless

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

Saudi Arabia: The Mother Ideology of All Islamists

 

 

Saudi Arabia Uncovered, (ITV, 2016) [click to watch video before it gets taken down]

 

 

Since there has been some debate here regarding the economic power of the Western Banks versus the Power of Islam’s Oil, I thought it would be extremely pertinent to post this link on a brilliant ITV undercover documentary released only three days ago (incidentally on the day of the horrific Belgium twin suicide bombings). Click the link at the top of this page. Below are some highlights.

 

 

It dramatically exposed the Saudi Kingdom’s Wahhabist ideology and its export of it around the world, as well as its financial support for terrorism globally, coupled with the power of its oil and the west’s addiction for it – the effect of which has made western leaders to this day turn a blind eye to its terrorist and despotic activity.

 

 

So powerful is this Oil Kingdom – the biggest exporter of oil no less, making the Saudi Royal Family alone worth several trillion pounds – that as of the end of last year, it was made Chair of the Human Rights Council at the U.N. As you will see from the documentary, the Saudi Kingdom is hardly a great paragon of human rights, but in fact the complete opposite. It is no more different than ISIS, and is in fact the mother of ISIS ideology. The alleged power of Western banks have no sway over these Kings of Black Gold. And this is on top of its control of OPEC that control the price of oil, and OIC that is the biggest block at the U.N. pushing for the protection of Islam against defamation (which is unsurprisingly a sharia tenet, effectively making the U.N. and eventually its member states sharia-compliant).

 

 

It of course plays a dangerous two-faced game of pretentiously fighting terrorism as a façade to the wider western world on the one hand (it claims superficially to be the West’s ally after all), whilst practising and exporting Islamist ideology and terrorism on the other. How long this can last no one knows. But one thing we can know: as long as the West is addicted to oil, those petrodollars will continue to fund the Saudi state, who in turn will fund more terrorism (through Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, Islamic State to name but a famous few) and export more Islamist ideology (through the Muslim Brotherhood among others), and therefore the growth of the Islamic Empire will continue unabated.

I would add that the West's "addiction to oil" is not just about gasoline and automobiles.  It is about all the products made from petroleum by products, from fertilizer, to zip-lock bags, to your plastic dishpan and garbage can, to Chap Stick.  Think of all the "plastic" IV bags and syringes and medical equipment.  Grief!  Our quality of life would take a nosedive without cheap petroleum.   And you wondered HOW the economy of the USA could collapse.  The whole "reserve currency" BEGAN as a way to maintain cheap oil for the West.  

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

30 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

The beast, we are told, comes out of the sea.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." (Rev 13:11)

There is also a beast which comes out of the land.

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Kevin H said:

But in Bible typography mountains represent the holy mountains. Each empire had it's own sacred mountain. In Zion it is Mt. Zion. In Greece it is Mt. Olympic. Babylon which was flat built their sacred mountain, the tower of Babel. Thus again indicating empires.

 

Kevin, 

You point out something very interesting!!  The "mountains" are holy mountains - centers of worship.  I'm thinking at this point that the "mountains" represent major religions rather than kingdoms.  Kings rule kingdoms.  Priests or other designated "holy" men rule over religions.  Pharoah being a good example - as the visible "head" of the Egyptian religious pantheon. 

Revelation 13:5 "The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months."(NRS) 

The Beast "speaks" thru his "heads".  When Daniel first saw the "terrible beast" in the vision of Daniel Cpt 7, it did NOT HAVE 7 heads.  It only had 10 horns.  So - I'm thinking the visions are progressive, finally telling us what will be in the "time of the END".  At the time of the END, the Beast will have an 7 "heads", then will be wounded, but will "grow" an 8th head, through the intervention/support/power of the "two horned/lamb like beast". 

The 8th head IS the resurrection of "the beast" after its deadly wound!!

The BEAST speaks blasphemy.  What is blasphemy?  Blasphemy is false speaking against or about Yahweh.  To set up other "gods" in place of the worship of Yahweh, would be blasphemy. 

The BEAST speaks through his "heads".  I'm really thinking that the "heads" are false religions - set up in place of the worship of Yahweh as the true and ONLY God. 

What is the history of the world's great counterfeit religions? It began at the "Tree" of course.  When humankind was dispersed from the Tower of Babel, they began variations of the original Satanic deception, in their widely separated areas of the world.  And "the Beast" = Satan's system of deception (enforced by "kings") grew "heads". 

HINDUISM - India - Scriptures written over a period of 2,000 years [1400 BC to 500 AD].  Many, many different sects, each focusing on one of the paths to Nirvana.  Worship of different incarnations (in different forms) of deity, different “enlightened ones.”  Jesus is today believed to be just one of "the enlightened ones". 

ZOROASTRIANISM -   Tradition places its beginnings to about 650 B.C. somewhere in Persia.  In a vision, a large personage - Vohu Manah or “good thought” took Zoroaster into the presence of the wise lord Ahura-Mazda, who instructed him in the one true religion.  The Reese Chronological Bible places the captivity of the prophet Daniel to Babylon about 580 BC. The Babylonians (Arabs) were defeated by the Persians (539 BC). It is probable that the religion of Darius the Mede was Zoroastrianism.

BUDDHISM - India - Siddhartha Gautama (about 500 BC) later called the Buddha - Enlightened One.  A departure from Hinduism.

CONFUCIANISM - China - Confucius (lived about 550BC) in China.  Contemporary with Buddha (although they probably never met).

JAINISM - Mahavira - meaning “great man” (born 599 BC in north-eastern India).  Began as a heretical movement within Hinduism.  A departure from Hinduism, still retaining many essential elements of Hinduism. 

ISLAM - began in the 7th century AD.

SIKHISM - A fairly recent religion.   Begun by Nanak (born near Punjab, India about 1469 AD), who taught that both Islam and Hinduism contained errors.  Sikhism is a blend and revision of Islam and Hinduism, retaining elements of both.

BAHA’ISM -  (1860)  A Persian visionary called “the Bab” predicted a “messiah” who would fulfill all religions.   This one has been embraced by many within the entertainment industry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMPEROR (Pharoah) WORSHIP - Belief that the emperor/ pharoah, etc. was a living incarnation of a god, or one channeled by a god.  Pagan Rome, Egypt, Shintoism (ancient Japan), Incan, Mayan

ANCESTOR WORSHIP - Prominent in South Americas,

SPIRIT WORSHIP - American Indians

EARTH WORSHIP - sun worship, with pantheon of lesser gods. 

Most often a combination of these elements.

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The 7 "heads" would therefore be ZOROASTRIANISM, BUDDHISM, HINDUISM (with all the variations) ISLAM, JUDAISM, false CHRISTIANITY (Catholic and Protestant),  and SUN/EARTH/SPIRIT/EMPEROR/ANCESTOR worship.  The "8th head" would unite all together.  The Temple at Jerusalem would be internationalized to become a "house of prayer for all peoples".  It would be forbidden to speak against any religion (something the UN is pushing now) -> resulting in persecution of those who preach the truth, which would be labeled as "speaking against" other religions.  Religious "differences" would be put forth as the cause of wars (not simply greed or a lust for power). 

So - could ISLAM be "the 7th head".  I'd say it's very likely - at least in my scenario of "heads" being religions, not simply "kings" who enforce them. 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." (Rev 13:11)

There is also a beast which comes out of the land.

I was speaking of the OTHER "beast" - the one that comes out of "the land".  This is the beast that is empowered to resurrect the "first beast" - (the one with 7 heads, that was wounded) - , to speak through an 8th head. 

I if the other beast (the lamb-like beast) comes out of Israel, this may FIT, because Israel longs for peace, is willing to compromise - to be "politically correct" - in order to get it.  It FITS with my scenario of the Temple being made into a "house of prayer for all peoples" - regardless of "religion". 

[Martn]

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, (so they were NOT ruling in John's day) but they receive (future) authority for one hour as kings with the beast (NKJ).

The 10 kings will ENFORCE the agenda of "the terrible beast" of Revelation 13, in the very last days.    I'm presently thinking these will be UN Security Council nations, or some other UN like body council, which can use the power of collected nations to ENFORCE an agenda.  

The Beast of Revelation 13 is a composite beast, because it takes over the other prominent nations (lion, bear, leopard).  We know this because those other nations re-emerge AFTER the Beast is destroyed.  So they CANNOT be ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Rome.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 7:24 "The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings."

In Daniel 7, the "terrible beast" is said to be a "kingdom".  That would be one ruled over by a king. 

The "little horn" is an 8th "king".  He plucks up (pulls up) 3 kingdoms. 

We really have no idea who these 10 kings are, because they do not "rule with the Beast" until the very END TIME.  So how can we know who "the 8th king" - "little horn" IS? 

SDA escatology has equated the "little horn", with the "harlot" - with the Catholic Church/Papacy.   How can this be?  How can the "horn" (a nation) BE the "harlot" (one who violates her marriage covenant with the LORD)? 

I do agree that Vatican City is an independent "nation" - the Pope being her "king" (as it were).   So she could be a "horn" - a "kingdom", but how is she ALSO "the harlot". 

NOTE:  The LORD was never "married" to the Catholic Church, any more than He was "married" to Protestantism.    

The 10 kings (all 10 not just 7 kings) destroy the Harlot and burn her with fire.  The 10 "kings" are attached to, and grow out of "the Beast".  The "harlot" RIDES on the Beast. 

Jerusalem is a recently appeared "nation".  Jerusalem - her capitol - was termed a "harlot" by the LORD's prophets.   She also "sits on 7 hills". 

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 6:28 PM, JoeMo said:

Show me the scripture where it says the papacy is Babylon.  An EGW quote won't cut it.

Accepting EGW makes the job much easier. It can be done by Scripture alone but very time consuming and takes many texts.

 

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 6:28 PM, JoeMo said:

If "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT" is written on the woman's forehead, wouldn't that be her name rather than the name of the beast?

If the hat on the girl's head says Atlanta Braves, is it the girls' name?

This woman's hat says "BABYLON THE GREAT" "Mother of harlots and abominations" "Earth"

The woman cannot be the beast. 2 different critters.

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:21-23)

The mothers and the daughters are different.

In Revelation 17, the daughter is clinging to its mother, the beast,

and the daughter has the mark of the beast on her forehead.

Christian regards
 

[hch]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 0:13 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

In 13:11 the lamb-like beast rises "out of the earth".  The words translated as "the earth" are the same words translated as "the land" - meaning the land promised to Abraham.  I think it POSSIBLE that the lamb-like beast rises from Jerusalem, or at least from the current nation of Israel.

8thday,

in the heart of  JerUSAlem is the identity of the earth beast.

And an identifying feature within the prophecy is that it calls fire down from heaven in the sight of men.

An eyewitness reported: “After the flash, she saw a brilliant orange orb, the color of the sun as it sets in the ocean, erupt in the sky - and she hit the ground. When she looked up, the buildings around her and much of the city were on fire… West was stunned by the hellish ruins of Hiroshima.” http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2005/08/05/2005-08-05_hiroshima_survivor_saw_hell_nyer_tells_o.html

Over Nagasaki when Bockscar’s bombardier, Captain Kermit Beahan, visually sighted the target; the Fat Man was “exploded…above the ground… The explosion generated heat estimated at 3,900 degrees Celsius (… 7,000 F)” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#The_bombing_2

Christian regards

[8thdaypriest]

The Pope has been trying to achieve ecumenism, for many years.  Popes have sought to bring all religions together - in the name of peace.  It is an easy "leap" to see the Pope setting up his "throne" at Jerusalem, as the "false prophet" to bring together all religions to an international "house of prayer".   It begins by bringing the Protestants under her ecumenical "roof".  The Papacy already has strong ties as the "mediator" between Muslims and Jews.  

I can see the Pope as the "false prophet".  I can see the Pope as "the AntiChrist", although I lean more to the being who gloriously appears as the universal Messiah. 

The one who does "wonders" and "makes fire come down from heaven in the sight of men" is the "lamb-like beast", which arises from "the land" - (probably standing in a rebuilt Temple).  A lamb is an animal - a beast.  So is the Vatican the SAME AS the "lamb-like beast"?  Don't know.....  OR Is Israel the "lamb-like beast"?  Don't know.....

The BEAST (with all its heads and horns), and the FALSE PROPHET are "thrown into the lake of fire" at the Second Coming.  The DRAGON is not! 

Ergo - the Dragon (Satan himself) is not the Beast kingdom.  

Just a note:  The BEAST (encompassing millions of the enemies of Christ) and the FALSE PROPHET are "thrown into the lake of fire" (which is the second death) AT the Second Coming.  This supports my view that the rebellious informed wicked are destroyed forever at the Second Coming (which agrees with Daniel 12:2-3).  They are everlastingly condemned.  There is no need to resurrect them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN, after another 1000 years.  The people to be dealt with AFTER the 7t millennium, as "the rest of the dead" are all of those who lived and died in ignorance of Yahweh.  They deserve the opportunity to CHOOSE the Lord if they so desire, after being informed (by the "priests of God and of Christ). 

[8thdaypriest]

6 minutes ago, hch said:

8thday,

in the heart of  JerUSAlem is the identity of the earth beast.

And an identifying feature within the prophecy is that it calls fire down from heaven in the sight of men.

An eyewitness reported: “After the flash, she saw a brilliant orange orb, the color of the sun as it sets in the ocean, erupt in the sky - and she hit the ground. When she looked up, the buildings around her and much of the city were on fire… West was stunned by the hellish ruins of Hiroshima.” http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2005/08/05/2005-08-05_hiroshima_survivor_saw_hell_nyer_tells_o.html

Over Nagasaki when Bockscar’s bombardier, Captain Kermit Beahan, visually sighted the target; the Fat Man was “exploded…above the ground… The explosion generated heat estimated at 3,900 degrees Celsius (… 7,000 F)” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#The_bombing_2

Christian regards

You believe that the current nation of Israel WILL explode a nuclear bomb.  Where?  What would be the TARGET?