Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/30/2016 at 0:22 PM, Pickle said:

1. We know from Dan. 11:33, 35; 12:5-7 that Daniel is unsealed and the time of the end begins at the end of the 1260 days.

2. We know from Dan. 2 and 8 that not everything in the book of Daniel is sealed.

3. We know from Dan. 8 that the 2300 evening-morning are definitely sealed until the time of the end.

4. The 70 weeks were never sealed. There is nothing about them that hasn't always been able to be understood. What I mean is that there was a full and complete explanation given in the chapter itself. Just like everyone could understand the ram, goat, first horn, four horns, and little horn of Dan. 8, everyone could understand the 70 weeks, which is quite unlike the 2300 days.

5. Ezra 6:14 speaks of one decree issued by Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes.

6. Isaiah 44-45 specifically says that Cyrus would build the city.

7. Isaiah 1:26 predicts that the judges would be restored.

8. Dan. 9 when speaking of the decree refers to building and restoring. If one looks for something that refers to judging, the Hebrew word translated "walls" or "moats" is the key. That word refers to the restoration of the judiciary, which is what the decree of Ezra 7 did, that of Artaxerxes' 7th year.

9. Maimonides says that they began a new sabbatical-year count after Ezra arrived, and it is true that the fall of 457 BC marks the beginning of the first year of a sabbatical cycle. Christ then died right in the middle of the 70th sabbatical cycle after that.

10. If you put the 70 weeks into the future, then you have to explain how the 70 weeks explain the 2300 evening-morning. Gabriel was told in Dan. 8 to explain the mar'eh to Daniel. When Gabriel got to the point of explaining the 2300 evening-morning, he said, "The mar'eh of the evening and the morning which was told is true." That overwhelmed Daniel and he fainted. When Gabriel returned in Dan. 9 he told Daniel, "Consider the mar'eh." Thus, the 70 weeks have to explain the mar'eh of the 2300 evening-morning.

Pickle, 

When you write "we know", - what you MEAN is "I know" OR SDAs who believe in EGW "know", or people who agree with YOU "know". 

I - on the other hand - do NOT "know", and I do not agree with your interpretation. 

When you word your posts with "we know", it just sounds closed minded. 

Many Bible prophecies are duel prophecies.  They have more than one application, but only ONE final fulfillment. 

In Dan 8:17, the angel told Daniel, "the vision refers to the time of the END".  I do NOT believe that 333BC (when Alexander the Great fought Persia) was "the time of the END", nor do I believe that 1798 began "the time of the END". 

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/30/2016 at 0:29 PM, Pickle said:

It seems to me that you may be begging the question some.

For one thing, you have the two witnesses ascending to heaven at the second coming, but you have that occur before the end of the second woe, and thus before the seventh trumpet, since the second woe includes most of Rev. 11.

I take it that you then have the time of trouble of Dan. 12:1 being the final persecution as well? If so, when is Dan. 11:33, 35 referring to? Dan. 11:40 is after the many days of persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35, and thus Dan. 11:40 occurs at the end of that period of persecution. Dan. 12:1 must therefore be after that.

Remember that the 1290 days of Dan. 12 start ticking in Dan. 11:31.

The only way to make sense of it all that I can see is to have the 1260 days cover the persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35, with Dan. 12:40 occurring at their close, with Dan. 12:1 occurring at the second coming.

I believe the "time of trouble such as never was" (Daniel 12:1) will be the 7 last plagues.

I believe that "time" BEGINS with a great resurrection.  Multitudes of those who sleep in the dust will come forth.  Some to everlasting life.  Some to "shame and everlasting condemnation". 

I believe those who were knowingly rebellious against the LORD, without repentance will be resurrected at this time.  This is the Second Coming DAY.  This is judgment DAY.  This is Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement.  The knowingly unrepentant will be "cut off" from God.  They will be left to suffer the plagues.  I do NOT believe they will be resurrected AGAIN after 1000 years, to be judged AGAIN, and executed AGAIN.  "Everlasting condemnation" is a done deal.  No one comes back from this judgment. 

The "time of trouble such as NEVER WAS" is not the same as the "time of Jacob's trouble".   Jacob's trouble will be the final period of persecution by the "little horn" leading up to the Second Coming. 

What makes "sense" to you Pickle, does not make sense to me.  We disagree.  I post my beliefs, and you post yours.  Folks reading our posts can make up their own minds. 

Rachel

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What makes "sense" to you Pickle, does not make sense to me.  We disagree.  I post my beliefs, and you post yours.  Folks reading our posts can make up their own minds

Amen, Rachel! As usual, you and I see "eye-to-eye on MOST things.  Since we are posting beliefs rather than incontrovertible truth,  I have a slightly different opinion than you on this.  I am re-reading Marvin Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church".  I agree with about 90% of what he proposes in that book.  The part where I would differ with you is minor - I believe the "time of trouble such as never was begins" with the opening of the 5th seal; which IMHO also initiates the trumpets.  The first 5 seals all involve man's wrath against other men.  The 5th seal will be the most intense martyrdom of God's chosen in the history of civilization; and is the beginning of the GREAT Tribulation.  With the mass martyrdom that takes place under the 5th seal,  God has had enough; and we begin to see God's wrath against man.  We will know the difference!!  The last 1260 days of this age will begin.  Sometime in the midst of the trumpets (maybe at the 5th trumpet/first woe), the dead in Christ will be resurrected; and together with them, we who remain faithful to God will be taken off of the planet.  It is at this time that probation ends - all the remaining people on earth have nothing to look forward to but unrestrained divine wrath and destruction.  I remain undecided on whether the wicked dead from this age are resurrected just prior to the seven bowls or after the millennium.  I also remain undecided on whether the millennium is here on earth or in heaven (although I still lean to it being on earth - we've discussed this before).

The fourth trumpet declares the same cosmic disturbances as are described in Matt. 24:29, Rev 6:12, and Joel 2:30-31. These cosmic disturbances will announce the Day of the Lord. After these cosmic disturbances, God's elect will be taken off of the planet.  It pretty much sucks for everyone who remains here - their everlasting doom is sealed.

Like you stated - we are expressing opinions here - not absolute explicit unalterable truth.

[phkrause]

Has anyone seen the series of meetings by Kenneth Cox entitled "The Time of the End." They answer many of of the questions about the 7 heads, the Anti-Christ, etc., etc.!! I will post them separately, in there own thread. I think they are worthwhile to watch and see what you think!!

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Rachel! As usual, you and I see "eye-to-eye on MOST things.  Since we are posting beliefs rather than incontrovertible truth,  I have a slightly different opinion than you on this.  I am re-reading Marvin Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church".  I agree with about 90% of what he proposes in that book.  The part where I would differ with you is minor - I believe the "time of trouble such as never was begins" with the opening of the 5th seal; which IMHO also initiates the trumpets.  The first 5 seals all involve man's wrath against other men.  The 5th seal will be the most intense martyrdom of God's chosen in the history of civilization; and is the beginning of the GREAT Tribulation.  With the mass martyrdom that takes place under the 5th seal,  God has had enough; and we begin to see God's wrath against man.  We will know the difference!!  The last 1260 days of this age will begin.  Sometime in the midst of the trumpets (maybe at the 5th trumpet/first woe), the dead in Christ will be resurrected; and together with them, we who remain faithful to God will be taken off of the planet.  It is at this time that probation ends - all the remaining people on earth have nothing to look forward to but unrestrained divine wrath and destruction.  I remain undecided on whether the wicked dead from this age are resurrected just prior to the seven bowls or after the millennium.  I also remain undecided on whether the millennium is here on earth or in heaven (although I still lean to it being on earth - we've discussed this before).

The fourth trumpet declares the same cosmic disturbances as are described in Matt. 24:29, Rev 6:12, and Joel 2:30-31. These cosmic disturbances will announce the Day of the Lord. After these cosmic disturbances, God's elect will be taken off of the planet.  It pretty much sucks for everyone who remains here - their everlasting doom is sealed.

Like you stated - we are expressing opinions here - not absolute explicit unalterable truth.

Thanks for explaining your current thinking on the woes, trumpets, and vials. 

Paul expected the resurrection/change to take place "at the last trumpet" (ICor 15:52).  Did Paul know about the 7 trumpets of Revelation?  If he DID know, then the "last trumpet" would be the 7th.

I still believe the earth will be desolate and uninhabited during the 7th millennium.  Desolation IS "rest" according to Jeremiah. 

In my thinking, the "priests of God and of Christ" won't be ready to minister UNTIL the 8th "day" (millennium), so if they WERE left on this earth, they could not help anyone (any more than we presently help people).  They could not govern, or mediate disputes AS the priests of God.  Don't know about you, but I do NOT feel ready to "govern" anyone, much less "rule the nations" under Christ.  

I have Marv Rosenthal's book on my shelf.  I remember thinking that he went far beyond the text.  I'll read it over again, to see if I still think so.  He also misses a lot of Tabernacle/Hebrew imagery and custom. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Rachel! As usual, you and I see "eye-to-eye on MOST things.  Since we are posting beliefs rather than incontrovertible truth,  I have a slightly different opinion than you on this.  I am re-reading Marvin Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church".  I agree with about 90% of what he proposes in that book.  The part where I would differ with you is minor - I believe the "time of trouble such as never was begins" with the opening of the 5th seal; which IMHO also initiates the trumpets.  The first 5 seals all involve man's wrath against other men.  The 5th seal will be the most intense martyrdom of God's chosen in the history of civilization; and is the beginning of the GREAT Tribulation.  With the mass martyrdom that takes place under the 5th seal,  God has had enough; and we begin to see God's wrath against man.  We will know the difference!!  The last 1260 days of this age will begin.  Sometime in the midst of the trumpets (maybe at the 5th trumpet/first woe), the dead in Christ will be resurrected; and together with them, we who remain faithful to God will be taken off of the planet.  It is at this time that probation ends - all the remaining people on earth have nothing to look forward to but unrestrained divine wrath and destruction.  I remain undecided on whether the wicked dead from this age are resurrected just prior to the seven bowls or after the millennium.  I also remain undecided on whether the millennium is here on earth or in heaven (although I still lean to it being on earth - we've discussed this before).

The fourth trumpet declares the same cosmic disturbances as are described in Matt. 24:29, Rev 6:12, and Joel 2:30-31. These cosmic disturbances will announce the Day of the Lord. After these cosmic disturbances, God's elect will be taken off of the planet.  It pretty much sucks for everyone who remains here - their everlasting doom is sealed.

Like you stated - we are expressing opinions here - not absolute explicit unalterable truth.

A "scroll" does not unroll at all, UNTIL all seven "seals" are broken.  It was custom to seal deeds and wills with 7 seals.  A summary of contents was written on the outside, just to identify the contents of that scroll. 

That being said, the 6th SEAL actually goes all the way to the Second Coming - to "the great day of His wrath" - to the great earthquake when the stars fall and every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

When the 7th seal is broken, the "sealing" is complete.   As the 7th trumpet sounds, "the mystery of God is finished".  (The mystery of God is "Christ in you, the hope of glory", which sounds like sealing to me.)

I agree that the first SIX trumpets are the work of Satan and his demons.  The 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, of the first 4 trumpets is a clue.  (His tail drew a THIRD of the stars of heaven.)  Under the 6th trumpet, 4 angels are unbound, who kill 1/3 of mankind, with 3 plagues (fire, smoke, and brimstone).  Probably a nuclear weapon.  

The three woes are trumpets 5, 6, and 7.

The 6th trumpet (second woe) ENDS at the Second Coming.

In 9:11, the four angels who are released at the 6th trumpet to kill 1/3 of mankind "were prepared for exactly that "HOUR, and DAY, and MONTH, and YEAR".   There was only one appointed time that involved an hour, a day, a month, and a year.  That was the Day of Atonement, in the 49th YEAR, in the 7th MONTH, on the 10 DAY, when the Jubilee trumpet was sounded.  At Jubilee, every man was to return to his inheritance. 

11:15 concurs.  When the 7th trumpet sounds, loud voices in heaven proclaim that the kingdoms of the world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of God and of Christ.  The LORD's inheritance has returned to Him. 

Leviticus 25:8 `And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years. 9 `Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. (NKJ)

At the 7th trumpet, there are "lightnings, thunderings, a GREAT earthquake, and GREAT hail".  Every island fled away, and the mountains were not found -  exactly the SAME as the end of the sixth SEAL - the Second Coming. 

The 7th trumpet (3rd woe) IS the 7 last plagues, which are poured out "on one day".  The earth is reaped on ONE DAY.  18:8  "Therefore her plagues will come in ONE DAY."

Concerning the "harlot" the text actually says her judgment/destruction will come "in one hour" 18:17, and 18:19.  Her smoke however will rise up forever and ever. 

WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds, "It is done" (16:17).  The destruction has been poured out.  The great earthquake and great hail appear to happen simultaneously with the sounding of the 7th trumpet.  I'm not certain that every wicked person is DEAD at this point, but the cascade of destruction has been unleashed and there is no stopping it.  The "fire" has begun which will consume the earth. 

 

[hch]

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

Has anyone seen the series of meetings by Kenneth Cox entitled "The Time of the End." They answer many of of the questions about the 7 heads, the Anti-Christ, etc., etc.!! I will post them separately, in there own thread. I think they are worthwhile to watch and see what you think!!

phkrause.

I did follow the Cox links that you have posted in the past.

Kenneth was very interesting, but from my study very much not up to date.

While researching endtime events I found this video that is interesting in that he compares recent events to Scripture. Though the speaker has some unbiblical beliefs woven into the presentation, he also says some things that are worthy of hearing. 

 

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 20/03/2016 at 2:08 AM, Kevin H said:

No I do not see the Pope as the 7th head. Once again I understand the 7 heads as the periods of who rules over the majority of God's chosen people (Hebrews and Christians) between the time frames of Zedekiah to Jesus, the son's of David who is supposed to be ruling over us.

Kevin,

There are many things in what you said that we share. For instance, your dislike to adhere to Fundamentalist Adventism is a sentiment that I very much share. I have no qualms about that since I made a formal choice to be taken off the members register. Your starting point from exegesis, and a focus on Israel as the centre of the 7 heads is also where I start from. I guess the real difference is the process of logic that you use which ends up leading to your conclusion. But, I do believe that your starting point, whilst using a deductive process of logic, will lead you to my conclusion. But before I explain why I want to also point out the nature of prophecy to be able to read prophecy properly.

The Inherent Nature of Prophecy

I’ve not understood exactly what you mean by ‘analogous approach’ and ‘homologous approach,’ so you have to be more specific. By analogous do you mean using a text as an analogy in a way that is not immediately present or derived from the text? That I would then term as eisegesis if this is what you mean. I’m not sure what you mean by homologous either – do you mean that where separate passages have key feature similarities, they are effectively talking about the same subject matter? You will need to clarify.

In any case, I want to add something else for you to include in your thinking process. Prophecy when primarily interpreted apart from an exegetical application, is bereft of the predictive qualities, and thus strips it from being a prophecy. Allow me to explain. The very nature of true prophecy is that it is (1) highly specific and therefore (2) highly improbable. If a prophecy didn’t have these 2 things, then that prophecy wouldn’t really be a prophecy. Take a very obvious example. If I predicted that tomorrow the postman would arrive, that wouldn’t be a prophecy because it is a highly regular and general occurrence and therefore highly probable to occur. But, if I started saying, the postman would come at a specific minute of the day, with a specific number of letters, had a specific name, and so on, this becomes highly improbable to occur, because of its high specificity. So that if it does happen, it is only explainable by recourse to a superior being from a vantage point beyond the limits of time and space. Thus, it is a truly divine prophecy, since only true prophecy can come from such a source. A prediction with low probability could easily come from humans.

But restricting prophecy to eisegetical approaches however – applying prophecy to anything one chooses or in a broad unspecific way – this takes away the very nature of it being a prophecy. Reading it exegetically – that is, reading what it actually says from a contextual standpoint – is the only way to read prophecy whilst maintaining its high specificity and high improbability.

Why is this important? Because any time a theory is proposed that is (1) highly generic and (2) cannot be extrapolated from the text in a direct or contextual way – in other words, used eisegetically – then we must reject that theory on the basis that it denudes the prophecy from being a prophecy. Any interpretation that takes the specific words of the prophecy and applies that to specific things that can be derived directly from a contextual standpoint, is the interpretation to be favoured.

Having said that, does my understanding of the Seven Heads of the Beast point to specific things in the context? Yes, I believe it does. I’ll now explain.

An Exegetical Reading of Rev. 17.9-10: The Roman Empire as the 6^th Head

“People did not sit by the waters of Babylon and say "The Pope is coming" but saw these as current events or where current events would soon lead. People did not leave from the first reading of Revelation scratching their heads saying, this does not make any sense. Neither did they leave saying "The Pope is coming and after that the United States" They left saying "This is what God is doing now, here wow!"  These issues dealt with issues that God's people faced, and how God was giving them opportunities in their day to spread the gospel and how the world could have ended.”

We both believe that the proper approach to begin with is to read how it might have been received by the listeners/hearers/readers of Revelation at the time it was given. And it says when speaking about the 6^th Head, that it “is”. To a contemporary observer of the time, “one is” simply reads ‘one is presently in existence.’ That’s simple and clear enough. To extrapolate that this refers to an empire in the future or an empire in the past cannot be derived from the text exegetically. The only way you can do this is by taking away its high specificity and thus denude it from being a prophecy – in other words, by applying it to any point in time, suggests that you can apply prophecy to just about anything you want, and therefore it no longer is a prophecy. So a future or past 6^th Head interpretation is to be rejected outright.

That is why, when you say Rome is the 4^th Head in line with Daniel 2, thereby putting the 6^th Head (the “one is” [presently in existence]) into the future, this removes its high specificity and removes it from the immediate context that contemporary hearers would have recognised (is simply means is). Early Church Father St. Victorinus, living closer to the time, and still living under the Roman Empire, clearly saw the 6^th Head as existing contemporary to Apostle John’s time:

“Rev. 17.10: The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published.” - St. Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John

So you see, from your own belief in an exegetical approach, your interpretation doesn’t follow. In fact, it leads to what I’m saying. And therefore I believe you can begin to agree with me on this point, that the Roman Empire is not the 4^th Head, but rather the 6^th Head.

Rome to the Holy Roman Empire

“And we find Rome developing into the Holy Roman Empire.”

I would put forward that the Holy Roman Empire itself is not included in the list. As anyone who studies history knows that the Roman Empire did not end in 476 AD despite the Western half of the Empire falling. It continued on in the Eastern half all the way until 1453, as I have demonstrated earlier by numerous historical sources. I’ll cite another quote here briefly from a book that I just bought:

“In AD 476 a Germanic soldier named Odoacer deposed the Western Roman Emperor Romulus Augustus and became King of Italy. This traditionally marks the end of the Roman Empire in the West... The Roman Empire in the East [also] known as Byzantium, survived for almost another thousand years.” – Anne Davison, The Holy Roman Empire: Power Politics Papacy, (UK: In Brief, 2014), p. 11.

What’s more, the Holy Roman Empire existed along with the Roman Empire when it started in 800 AD. Therefore it could not have succeeded the Roman Empire, since the Roman Empire was very much alive when it was born.

If it were the case that the Holy Roman Empire succeeded it, it would seem totally odd that it changed into it after an absence of almost 400 years (476-800 AD), whilst the Eastern Roman Empire based at Constantinople, ruled by Roman Emperors, continued on in the interim 400 year period, and actually sustained the Western Pope for some time. Doesn’t it seem odd to you to totally ignore the existence of the Eastern Roman Empire for the interim 400-year period, and even the 1000-year period until its fall in 1453?

Interestingly enough, from 622 onwards (almost 200 hundred years before the Holy Roman Empire), the Islamic Empire, beginning with Muhammad himself, began to lay claim to the Roman and Persian (under Sassanid rule) Empires, eventually conquering both! (the former in 1453.) And yet this is also totally ignored (as we all should know, ignoring something doesn’t make it go away – in fact, sometimes it later returns to bite us back with unfortunate consequences, as Islam today is already doing and has been doing). But this obviously places the Islamic Empire as the 7^th Head.

Conclusion

Instead of responding to every part of the rest of what you said, I would rather stick to the foundational issue here, which is with regards to:

1.      The inherent nature of prophecy – (a) high specificity and (b) high improbability;

2.      An exegetical look at Rev. 17.10’s “five have fallen, one is”;

3.      The historical reality of the Roman Empire continuing to exist after 476 AD in the Eastern Roman Empire, up until 1453 AD.

These have been the benchmark of my case ever since I started posting here, and yet it is these very points that have as yet not been addressed and I believe cannot be refuted. But, it is these three fundamental points that dismantle every other theory or case that is put forward. Therefore, I think it would be a benefit to you to carefully understand these points, especially since you already agree with me on the importance of exegetically reading the text. I believe we can and hopefully will agree further with this. All the best to you.

God Bless

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 20/03/2016 at 10:30 AM, hch said:

Thus in the context of the wounding, the beast in Revelation 13 is locked to 1798. And The healed beast is post-1798.

Hch,

I’m still puzzled why you still want to pursue this line of reasoning with regards to 1798. I thought you said you read my post on it. The traditional Adventist 1260-theory is simply a myth. How is this so? As I explained earlier, 1798 saw not the downfall of the papacy but the resurgence of the papacy, as the late scholar of Andrews University and Professor of Church History, Samuele Bacchiocchi, even has to agree with:

“The death of Pius VI [1798] can hardly be seen as the "abolishment" or "the downfall of the Papacy." It was simply a temporary humiliation of the prestige of the Papacy. In fact, Pius VI was able to give directives for the election of his successor. Few months after his death, the Cardinals met in Venice on December 8, 1799, and elected Barnaba Chiaramonti, who took the name of Pius VII, in deference to his predecessor. The new Pope was able to negotiate with Napoleon the Concordat in 1801 and the Organic Articles in 1802. These treatises restored to the Pope some of the territories of the States of the Church and regulated the extent of the Papal authority in France. The following years marked, not the downfall, but the resurgence of papal authority…” - Samuele Bacchiocchi, End-Times Issues Newsletter, No. 87, A Reply To Criticism: Part I “The Use of E. G. White’s Writing in Interpreting Scripture”, (1 August 2002), http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html.

Bacciocchi says this because it is actually in line with actual history. If you would but simply read the following link to an entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica (most of which I could not quote because it is extensive, but which in your own time you can open the link and read) you would see this. Pope Pius VI’s successor, Pius VII, became defiant of Napoleon, ultimately helping defeat Napoleon, and eventually led (1) a resurgence in Papal popularity, (2) in the aggrandisement of Papal State territory, and even, unwittingly, (3) Papal authoritarianism. In other words, he restores Papal political power:

“The Emperor’s [Napoleon] bullying of Pius [VII] aroused a far-reaching sympathy and respect for the Pope, especially among northern Catholics, who helped align Pius with the allies who eventually defeated Napoleon. In June 1812 Napoleon transferred Pius to Fontainebleau, where he forced the Pope to sign a humiliating concordat on Jan. 25, 1813, which Pius renounced two months later. Released in 1814, Pius was greatly acclaimed en route to Rome. The Congress of Vienna (1814–15) restored nearly all the Papal States, including Rome to Pius, who then sought to reestablish the church on traditional foundations… Ecclesiastically, Pius revived the Society of Jesus (1814) and encouraged the religious orders to reorganize themselves… In the tradition of the humanist popes, he sponsored educational reform and the establishment of Rome as a cultural centre. Despite his efforts to adapt the papacy to the political, intellectual, and social conditions of the modern world, the reinstatement of authoritarianism in the Papal States was inevitable, and a “government by priests” followed his death and the dismissal of Consalvi.” – Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Pius VII,” http://www.britannica.com/biography/Pius-VII.

There is no hope for this myth. It is sorely passed its sell-by-date. No longer do we have to buy from Adventist tele-evangelist door-to-door salesman selling snake oil. We are now in the digital age where by the simple click of a button we can access information that tells us whether the product is truly authentic or is a fake. And you should too. Stop living in a by-gone era of falsehood and lies fed by Adventist leadership for the past century and a half, and start living in an age of truth, where information is more easily accessed now than any other period in history. We are privileged in this way more than any other generation. By throwing this privilege away in favour of upholding the status quo is quite simply foolish. I say to you, don’t do it. You can have something better. God is a wonderful God of Truth and Wisdom willing to open the eyes and hearts of those who wish it. I encourage you to wish it. It will change your life.

God bless

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 21/03/2016 at 4:13 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I think it possible that the Vatican/Pope will play a part in the final events, but I think it more likely the Pope will serve as "the False Prophet" rather than the 7th head of the Beast itself.  The Papacy would have to rule the entire world, if it becomes the 7th head.  Everyone would have to worship/serve the Papacy.  I just don't see that.  

Just reading thru Revelation 13 again.  The Beast's "deadly wound" was "by the sword".   This could be either the "sword of truth" OR it could be a literal weapon of war. 

In 13:11 the lamb-like beast rises "out of the earth".  The words translated as "the earth" are the same words translated as "the land" - meaning the land promised to Abraham.  I think it POSSIBLE that the lamb-like beast rises from Jerusalem, or at least from the current nation of Israel. 

The lamb-like beast "performs great signs" even making fire come down from heaven" (obviously empowered by Satan).   By these signs he deceives men to do what he says. 

Personally, I believe the lamb-like beast IS "the false prophet".   (I don't believe he is Satan himself, BECAUSE he is thrown into the lake of fire, whereas Satan himself is not.) 

The lamb-like beast tells those on earth to "make an image to the Beast".  THEN he gives power to that image. 

THEN the image causes all to worship/serve the Beast (with the 7 heads and 10 horns).  The image then causes everyone to take "the mark".   So the image comes "alive" in some sense.

The image is a copy of the Beast (with 7 heads and 10 horns). 

17:11 says "the beast . . . is himself the 8th" head.  In the 8th "head" we see the full flowering of the Beast power.  In the image (which rules everywhere, over everyone) we also see the full flowering of the Beast power.  I'm thinking the "image" (exact copy) of the Beast IS "the 8th head".  And it comes into being because of the lamb-like beast, who rises "out of the land". 

In 16:13-14:  3 entities are named, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 

The dragon (Satan) gives power, thrown, and great authority TO the Beast.  Which means the Beast cannot actually be Satan, but only an agency OF Satan. 

In 19:20:  only 2 entities - the beast and the false prophet - are "cast alive into the lake of fire".  This BECAUSE Satan (the dragon) is only imprisoned in "the pit" for 1000 years. 

8thdaypriest,

I think you’re exactly spot on, and your observance is extremely perceptive. I have wanted to commend you more on your thoughts previously but I’ve had little time.

Your observance that “the lamb-like beast is ‘the false prophet’” as well as “the Beast cannot actually be Satan, but only an agency OF Satan” are my thoughts exactly!

 

Now I’m addressing all readers.

 

The Lamb Beast as the False Prophet

This Lamb-like Beast seems to parallel “the false prophet.” Now it seems clear to me, and it should to everyone, that a “false prophet” is literally that: a human being who is falsely seen as a prophet. And this ‘false prophet’ is distinct from the ‘Sea Beast’ because he forces upon the nations the worship of the “First Beast before him” (Rev. 13.12) – obviously by calling the ‘Sea Beast’ the “First Beast” and qualifying it with “before him” distinguishes the Sea Beast from the False Prophet/Land Beast.

Yet they have the same “authority”: “He exercises all the authority of the first beast before him” (Rev. 13.12).

But he looks like a Lamb and speaks like the Dragon. A lamb has only ever been a symbol of one person and one person alone – Jesus, the sacrificial lamb to save the world. It has never been representative of a nation or the religion Christianity. Therefore, I think the traditional Adventist interpretation that refers this to the United States is faulty because it extrapolates far beyond what the image represents. Anyone would be hard pressed to find any text that suggested a Lamb represented the United States. And speaking like the Dragon means he speaks like Satan. So it must refer to the fact that this False Prophet, is a human being who is an exact replica of Jesus (Lamb) but is in fact a Satanic incarnation (hence, speaking like a Dragon). And this is fitting to the description of ‘False Prophet’: a human being who is falsely seen as a prophet.

The Return of the Mahdi and Isa

What became fascinating for me, was when I heard a most brilliant revelation given to Joel Richardson (New York Times best-selling author of The Islamic Antichrist), that revealed how in the Islamic end-time end-game, Muslims believe that their saviour-king, The Mahdi, is to return at the End of Days – this is why leaders like former Iranian President Ahmadinejad and the Iranian Ayatollahs have been calling for his return.

But they also believe that Jesus/Isa will also return with him. Even Islamic State said as much in a video of beheading 20 Coptic Christian Egyptians on the shores of Libya. Ryan Mauro, ClarionProject.org’s national security analyst and professor of homeland security, describes what they said:

“Jesus, peace be upon him, will descend, breaking the cross, killing the swine and abolishing the jizya [tax on non-Muslims],” the English-speaking Islamic State member says to the camera. Here, the Islamic State is citing an apocalyptic Islamic prophecy about Jesus appearing with the Mahdi, the Islamic messiah, to vanquish Islam’s enemies. According to this prophecy, Jesus will authenticate the validity of Islam and disprove Christianity by destroying a cross. Sometime after he reappears, the entire world will become Muslim, and so the jizya tax on non-Muslims will no longer be needed. This is not a fringe interpretation of the prophecy only held by Islamic State. Other Islamists like Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood also refer to it.

This is based on their scriptures:

“The Messenger of Allah said: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the truth and will prevail until the Day of resurrection.  He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their commander [the Mahdi] would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some.” – Hadith Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0293, Narrated by Jabir bin ‘Abdullah.

‘The Prophet [Muhammad] said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descend (to the earth)… He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam.’ – Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, Number 4310, Narrated by Abu Hurayrah: see also Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656.

The Match Between Islamic History and Eschatology with Biblical Prophecy

So lets play this out (I won’t include references to avoid too lengthy a post).

The Seventh Head (Birth 622; Succession 1453)

The 7^th Head/Empire as has been established is the Islamic Empire of the Ottoman Dynasty, beginning in 622 with Muhammad, and succeeding the Roman Empire in 1453 with Mehmet/Muhammad II ‘The Conquerer’.

The Mortal Wound: World War I (1914-18) to the Abolition of the Caliphate (1924)

The 7^th Head is to have had a Mortal Wound. Mortal wounds are wounds that lead to death which is why some translate it “wounded to death.” 8thdaypriest also rightly pointed out that it is a wound inflicted by a “sword” (Rev. 13.14). A sword in this context, it seems to me, represents war (swords are used for violent warfare) on a global scale as depicted in Rev. 6.4, which depicts a red horseman with a “great sword” turning planet “earth” into a slaughtering ground with no “peace”.

In 1914 the first truly global war got underway. In that war the crumbling Ottoman Empire was called upon by its ally Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany to attack the British assets in the Middle East/Asia/North Africa. This culminated in one of the greatest invasions of the war at the Battle of Gallipoli where allied forces tried to take Constantinople. They failed, but won the war. The hero to come out of this battle was Mustafa Kemal, soon to be known as ‘Ataturk’, Father of modern day Turkey. Eventually, the result for the Ottoman Sultans was that the more secular politicians started taking over, and this finally culminated in Ataturk becoming the lifelong president of the newly formed Turkey, abolishing the Turkish Sultnate, and thus ringing the death knell, once and for all, for the 1400-year reign of the Islamic Caliph. Total utter decimation. This was a massive shock to the Islamic world. For the first time in its history there was no caliph.

So, in my estimation, the First World War was the ‘wound struck by the sword’ that Rev. 13 refers to. As suggested by the phrase “mortal wound,” it was a wound that gradually over a short period of time would lead to its death. The Islamic Caliphate of the Ottoman Dynasty being struck in World War I, gradually led to its death in 1924 when Ataturk abolished the Caliphate after 1400 years. Gone. No more. Shock. Disaster.

The Wound Healed: The Return of the Islamic Caliphate and The Rise of Islamic State (2014)

And ever since, Islamist groups have been calling for its return, from the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, and now Islamic State, who actually believe they in 2014 have brought it back! And many are starting to recognise that they have successfully done so, since they are actually functioning like a state. And now more and more Christians are beginning to recognise this phenomenal act of historical proportions. They announced it in June 2014. Interestingly enough, the Islamic Empire was born in the same month June back in 622. And now, they are calling for the return of the Mahdi (Beast) and Jesus (Lamb/False Prophet)! Exactly as Rev. 13 foretold!

The Image of the Beast Comes to Life

What’s even more fascinating (as if that wasn’t fascinating enough!) is that the Islamic Scriptures and scholars tell us that there is to be brought forth out of the earth an actual Beast that marks the heads of believers and unbelievers!

“And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We [Allah] shall bring forth a beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations.” - Qur’an 27.82 (Pickthall translation)

“The task of the Beast will be to distinguish the believers from the non-believers, with Prophet Moses’ staff it will draw a line on the forehead of every believer whereby his face will become bright and luminous and with the ring of Solomon it will seal the nose of every non-believer where by his whole face will become black. Thus there will be complete distinction between the Muslim and non-Muslim…” – Abu Huraira-Musnad Ahmad/Tirmidhi, by Shaykh Ahmad Ali in his Major Signs Before the Day of Judgment. Similar Hadith narrated by Ibn Majah in Kitab al-Fitan, Hadith 4061, 2 – 1351, 1352 and Ahmad, Musnad, 2 – 295.

What’s even more fascinating is that this Beast has a similar description to that in the Bible!:

 “[The] Beast is some form of ultra-conglomerate of many different animals.” – Tadhkirah al-Huffaz by al-Dhahabi.

Of course, other details of the Islamic scenario are seemingly mythical and strange, but the core crux of the end-time belief as well as Islamic history matches Biblical prophecy in an eerie and unique way.

The Seventh Head		The Islamic Empire (Born in 622) of the Ottoman Dynasty Succeeded the Roman Empire (1453)
The Mortal Wound of the Seventh Head by the Sword of Global War		World War I (1914-1918) Strikes a Final Blow to the Ottoman Empire which Culminates in the Abolition of the Caliphate (1924)
The Wound Healed		The Rise of the Islamic State Caliphate (2014)
The Appearance of the Antichrist “Beast” and the False Prophet Jesus Imposing Worship of the Beast		The Coming of the Mahdi and Isa (Islamic Jesus) who will Impose Islamic Worship on the Whole World
The Bringing to Life of the Image of the Beast that Marks Followers of the Beast Distinguishing them from True-God Believers		The Bringing Forth of a Conglomerate-Animal Beast that Marks Muslim Believers, marking a Distinction between Muslim and Non-Muslim

 

There is nothing match like this in any other religion. Why reject it? Something to think about.

God bless

[Thomas the Doubter]

On 24/03/2016 at 0:30 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I would add that the West's "addiction to oil" is not just about gasoline and automobiles.  It is about all the products made from petroleum by products, from fertilizer, to zip-lock bags, to your plastic dishpan and garbage can, to Chap Stick.  Think of all the "plastic" IV bags and syringes and medical equipment.  Grief!  Our quality of life would take a nosedive without cheap petroleum.   And you wondered HOW the economy of the USA could collapse.  The whole "reserve currency" BEGAN as a way to maintain cheap oil for the West.  

8thdaypriest,

You're exactly right! My thoughts exactly.

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I have Marv Rosenthal's book on my shelf.  I remember thinking that he went far beyond the text.  I'll read it over again, to see if I still think so.  He also misses a lot of Tabernacle/Hebrew imagery and custom. 

Oh; I don't agree with everything he says either; and I agree that he "stretches" the texts in some places.  I treat his stuff and the stuff of certain others who "have" special insight into the word of God like I treat cornish game hens - I eat the meat and spit out the bones.  Marvin's stuff is dated (the book is over 25 years old); and the planet has changed considerably since 1990.  Nonetheless, I feel he has a very good handle on the timeline.

As far as where we spend the millennium, we can agree to disagree.  I don't care where the millennium is; I just want to be there!  If - when we meet the Lord in the air - we fly up to the sky with Jesus as just keep going, I will think - "oh - I guess Rachel was right" and congratulate you for your astute observation while I'm hugging you and other fellow saints and dancing for joy! 

[phkrause]

13 hours ago, hch said:

Kenneth was very interesting, but from my study very much not up to date.

Have you seen the new studies by Doug Batchelor? "The Last Day of Prophecy"

I will post them as I watch them. Just saw the first one. Very interesting!

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, Thomas the Doubter said:

8thdaypriest,

 

 

I think you’re exactly spot on, and your observance is extremely perceptive. I have wanted to commend you more on your thoughts previously but I’ve had little time.

 

 

Your observance that “the lamb-like beast is ‘the false prophet’” as well as “the Beast cannot actually be Satan, but only an agency OF Satan” are my thoughts exactly!

 

 

 

Now I’m addressing all readers.

 

 

 

 

The Lamb Beast as the False Prophet

 

 

This Lamb-like Beast seems to parallel “the false prophet.” Now it seems clear to me, and it should to everyone, that a “false prophet” is literally that: a human being who is falsely seen as a prophet. And this ‘false prophet’ is distinct from the ‘Sea Beast’ because he forces upon the nations the worship of the “First Beast before him” (Rev. 13.12) – obviously by calling the ‘Sea Beast’ the “First Beast” and qualifying it with “before him” distinguishes the Sea Beast from the False Prophet/Land Beast.

 

 

Yet they have the same “authority”: “He exercises all the authority of the first beast before him” (Rev. 13.12).

 

 

But he looks like a Lamb and speaks like the Dragon. A lamb has only ever been a symbol of one person and one person alone – Jesus, the sacrificial lamb to save the world. It has never been representative of a nation or the religion Christianity. Therefore, I think the traditional Adventist interpretation that refers this to the United States is faulty because it extrapolates far beyond what the image represents. Anyone would be hard pressed to find any text that suggested a Lamb represented the United States. And speaking like the Dragon means he speaks like Satan. So it must refer to the fact that this False Prophet, is a human being who is an exact replica of Jesus (Lamb) but is in fact a Satanic incarnation (hence, speaking like a Dragon). And this is fitting to the description of ‘False Prophet’: a human being who is falsely seen as a prophet.

 

 

The Return of the Mahdi and Isa

 

 

What became fascinating for me, was when I heard a most brilliant revelation given to Joel Richardson (New York Times best-selling author of The Islamic Antichrist), that revealed how in the Islamic end-time end-game, Muslims believe that their saviour-king, The Mahdi, is to return at the End of Days – this is why leaders like former Iranian President Ahmadinejad and the Iranian Ayatollahs have been calling for his return.

 

 

But they also believe that Jesus/Isa will also return with him. Even Islamic State said as much in a video of beheading 20 Coptic Christian Egyptians on the shores of Libya. Ryan Mauro, ClarionProject.org’s national security analyst and professor of homeland security, describes what they said:

 

 

“Jesus, peace be upon him, will descend, breaking the cross, killing the swine and abolishing the jizya [tax on non-Muslims],” the English-speaking Islamic State member says to the camera. Here, the Islamic State is citing an apocalyptic Islamic prophecy about Jesus appearing with the Mahdi, the Islamic messiah, to vanquish Islam’s enemies. According to this prophecy, Jesus will authenticate the validity of Islam and disprove Christianity by destroying a cross. Sometime after he reappears, the entire world will become Muslim, and so the jizya tax on non-Muslims will no longer be needed. This is not a fringe interpretation of the prophecy only held by Islamic State. Other Islamists like Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood also refer to it.

 

 

This is based on their scriptures:

 

 

“The Messenger of Allah said: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the truth and will prevail until the Day of resurrection.  He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their commander [the Mahdi] would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some.” – Hadith Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0293, Narrated by Jabir bin ‘Abdullah.

 

 

‘The Prophet [Muhammad] said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descend (to the earth)… He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam.’ – Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, Number 4310, Narrated by Abu Hurayrah: see also Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656.

 

 

The Match Between Islamic History and Eschatology with Biblical Prophecy

 

 

So lets play this out (I won’t include references to avoid too lengthy a post).

 

 

The Seventh Head (Birth 622; Succession 1453)

 

 

The 7^th Head/Empire as has been established is the Islamic Empire of the Ottoman Dynasty, beginning in 622 with Muhammad, and succeeding the Roman Empire in 1453 with Mehmet/Muhammad II ‘The Conquerer’.

 

 

The Mortal Wound: World War I (1914-18) to the Abolition of the Caliphate (1924)

 

 

The 7^th Head is to have had a Mortal Wound. Mortal wounds are wounds that lead to death which is why some translate it “wounded to death.” 8thdaypriest also rightly pointed out that it is a wound inflicted by a “sword” (Rev. 13.14). A sword in this context, it seems to me, represents war (swords are used for violent warfare) on a global scale as depicted in Rev. 6.4, which depicts a red horseman with a “great sword” turning planet “earth” into a slaughtering ground with no “peace”.

 

 

In 1914 the first truly global war got underway. In that war the crumbling Ottoman Empire was called upon by its ally Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany to attack the British assets in the Middle East/Asia/North Africa. This culminated in one of the greatest invasions of the war at the Battle of Gallipoli where allied forces tried to take Constantinople. They failed, but won the war. The hero to come out of this battle was Mustafa Kemal, soon to be known as ‘Ataturk’, Father of modern day Turkey. Eventually, the result for the Ottoman Sultans was that the more secular politicians started taking over, and this finally culminated in Ataturk becoming the lifelong president of the newly formed Turkey, abolishing the Turkish Sultnate, and thus ringing the death knell, once and for all, for the 1400-year reign of the Islamic Caliph. Total utter decimation. This was a massive shock to the Islamic world. For the first time in its history there was no caliph.

 

 

So, in my estimation, the First World War was the ‘wound struck by the sword’ that Rev. 13 refers to. As suggested by the phrase “mortal wound,” it was a wound that gradually over a short period of time would lead to its death. The Islamic Caliphate of the Ottoman Dynasty being struck in World War I, gradually led to its death in 1924 when Ataturk abolished the Caliphate after 1400 years. Gone. No more. Shock. Disaster.

 

 

The Wound Healed: The Return of the Islamic Caliphate and The Rise of Islamic State (2014)

 

 

And ever since, Islamist groups have been calling for its return, from the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, and now Islamic State, who actually believe they in 2014 have brought it back! And many are starting to recognise that they have successfully done so, since they are actually functioning like a state. And now more and more Christians are beginning to recognise this phenomenal act of historical proportions. They announced it in June 2014. Interestingly enough, the Islamic Empire was born in the same month June back in 622. And now, they are calling for the return of the Mahdi (Beast) and Jesus (Lamb/False Prophet)! Exactly as Rev. 13 foretold!

 

 

The Image of the Beast Comes to Life

 

 

What’s even more fascinating (as if that wasn’t fascinating enough!) is that the Islamic Scriptures and scholars tell us that there is to be brought forth out of the earth an actual Beast that marks the heads of believers and unbelievers!

 

 

“And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We [Allah] shall bring forth a beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations.” - Qur’an 27.82 (Pickthall translation)

 

 

“The task of the Beast will be to distinguish the believers from the non-believers, with Prophet Moses’ staff it will draw a line on the forehead of every believer whereby his face will become bright and luminous and with the ring of Solomon it will seal the nose of every non-believer where by his whole face will become black. Thus there will be complete distinction between the Muslim and non-Muslim…” – Abu Huraira-Musnad Ahmad/Tirmidhi, by Shaykh Ahmad Ali in his Major Signs Before the Day of Judgment. Similar Hadith narrated by Ibn Majah in Kitab al-Fitan, Hadith 4061, 2 – 1351, 1352 and Ahmad, Musnad, 2 – 295.

 

 

What’s even more fascinating is that this Beast has a similar description to that in the Bible!:

 

 

 “[The] Beast is some form of ultra-conglomerate of many different animals.” – Tadhkirah al-Huffaz by al-Dhahabi.

 

 

Of course, other details of the Islamic scenario are seemingly mythical and strange, but the core crux of the end-time belief as well as Islamic history matches Biblical prophecy in an eerie and unique way.

 

 

The Seventh Head		The Islamic Empire (Born in 622) of the Ottoman Dynasty Succeeded the Roman Empire (1453)
The Mortal Wound of the Seventh Head by the Sword of Global War		World War I (1914-1918) Strikes a Final Blow to the Ottoman Empire which Culminates in the Abolition of the Caliphate (1924)
The Wound Healed		The Rise of the Islamic State Caliphate (2014)
The Appearance of the Antichrist “Beast” and the False Prophet Jesus Imposing Worship of the Beast		The Coming of the Mahdi and Isa (Islamic Jesus) who will Impose Islamic Worship on the Whole World
The Bringing to Life of the Image of the Beast that Marks Followers of the Beast Distinguishing them from True-God Believers		The Bringing Forth of a Conglomerate-Animal Beast that Marks Muslim Believers, marking a Distinction between Muslim and Non-Muslim

 

 

 

There is nothing match like this in any other religion. Why reject it? Something to think about.

God bless

Very interesting Thomas. 

Presently, I see the battle of Daniel Cpt 8, between the RAM (pushing N/S/W) and the GOAT coming from the West, as the defeat of Islamic forces, principally ISIS and Iran.  That DEFEAT may in fact be the "deadly wound" of the 7th head.  Possible.  I believe this same battle was prophesied in Numbers.

Numbers 24:24 "But ships will come from the coast of Kittim to subdue Ashur and subdue Eber, but they too will come to destruction." (CJB)

Kittum is Cyprus, where the US 6th fleet is anchored.  Ashur was Assyria (where ISIS is dug in).  Eber today is Southern Iran. 

The 2 horns on the RAM of Daniel 8 were said to be the "kings of Media and Persia".  Again the ancient home of the Medes was northern IRAC/ Southern Syria where today ISIS has a foothold.  Persia, of course, is IRAN .  The goat from the West, throws the Ram to the ground and stomps on him, and breaks BOTH of his horns.   The RAM has no power left.  

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Thomas and Rachel,

This is an excellent discussion. Another reason that supports Isa being the False Prophet is that in several places in the Qu'ran and hadiths, he is called the "Prophet Isa".

As usual, both of your research is thorough and your presentations are exquisite.

If you have interest in a biblical view of which Thomas is speaking, another good (but rather obscure) book is "The Dragon and the Beast" by Faith Jones.

[8thdaypriest]

Rev 13 says, "I saw one of his heads, as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed."  13:3  The text does NOT SAY which head was wounded.  We just assume that it's the 7th head.

The BEAST is wounded when his "head" is wounded.  Does the BEAST need all 7 heads, in order to function?  Or does he only have one "head" at a time, growing a new one each time the old one is defeated or just fades away? 

One fellow I know believes each "head" was one attempt (by Satan) at world domination.  Muslims certainly WANT/expect total world domination.

AFTER the deadly wound is healed, the Beast (not the 7th head) is given authority to continue for 42 months.  (SDAs place the deadly wound at the END of the 42 months/1260 years of persecution by the Catholic "Church".)

The 8th "head" is not necessarily going to be a resurrection of "head" #7.  It could manifest as something entirely different.  But it's agenda will be the SAME - world domination. 

In Rev. 13:7, the BEAST "was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.  And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."  THERE - the BEAST has achieved world domination!! 

But now he wants to be worshiped.  The "lamb like beast" (false prophet-maybe Christ personation) will bring this about.  Using powerful "signs", he deceives those who dwell on the earth, into making an "image to the BEAST who was wounded, whose wound was healed".  

Then the "lamb like beast" gives BREATH to the image.  The image BREATHES.  It is ALIVE!!!!  [This is WHY I believe the image IS the 8th "horn" OF the BEAST.]

The image then causes every one to worship itself, to take a mark, and decrees death to anyone who will not.  The image does the persecuting. 

(The "lamb-like beast" just deceives.) 

In Daniel, it is the "little horn" that persecutes the saints.  In Revelation, the BEAST persecutes, and his "image" persecutes. 

The "little horn" comes up among the 10 (on the BEAST).  So that's eleven total "horns".  It pulls up 3.  Eleven (10+1) minus 3 = 8.  NOW there are 8 "horns" On the BEAST. One of them is "the little horn". 

I believe the "little horn" IS "the image of the BEAST" - and the "image of the BEAST" functions as it's 8th "head". 

The "lamb-like beast" CANNOT BE the 8th head OF the terrible BEAST.  The "lamb-like beast" is a separate "beast".

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

I am still stuck on Rev 17:10.

Revelation 17:9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. [KJV says "there are also"]  Five have fallen, one is (#6), the other (#7) has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while."

The KJV makes it seem that the 7 "heads" and the 7 "kings" are different entities.  All the other translations indicate the heads and kings are the SAME entities.

The 7th "king"/"head" can only remain for "a little while". 

How can ISLAM be the 7th "head", if it came to power back in the 7th century, and lasted unto 1923?  That's NOT a "little while".   Now the militant ISLAM of today - on the other hand.  That really has come to POWER only recently.  I could certainly agree that ISIS will last only a "little while" - and their "caliphate".  

And how could the entire BEAST be Islam?  That doesn't fit.  Five "heads"/"kings", on that Beast had already "fallen" in John's day.  I could see one "head" being ISLAM (or militant ISLAM) but not the entire BEAST. 

[hch]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

Have you seen the new studies by Doug Batchelor? "The Last Day of Prophecy"

I will post them as I watch them. Just saw the first one. Very interesting!

I am always interested in hearing what the brethren have to say about Bible prophecy, but I don't expect that Doug is any more current than Kenneth Cox. Doug and I have emailed in the past and even talked on the phone about Bible prophecy. At those encounters, the Lord had not yet laid upon Doug the desire to learn anything new. But as the Holy Spirit moves man's heart if they follow He will lead

[Thomas the Doubter]

Hch,

“Where's the evidence of prophecy fulfilled in all of your many words?”

Lol. Sometimes you make me laugh hch.

I should remind you that I originally asked you when you thought the Roman Empire ended. First you said that the Roman Empire ended in 476. Then you retreated from that and said that the Roman Empire in ended in 395 when it split. Now you’re retreating further still and taking a softer tone by saying it merely “ceased to be the Roman Empire as it had been,” instead of saying it ended as you did earlier. And even that sounds tenuous and circumspect. What exactly is that supposed to mean anyway, “ceased to be the Roman Empire as it had been”? Do you mean it was no longer the Roman Empire? If so, then what happened after it split in 395? Are you suggesting it collapsed in 395? Or are you saying it ceased to be the Roman Empire? And what historical source would agree with you I wonder. So far you’ve only quoted yourself. And that is just plain embarrassing. That’s like saying to someone, I believe something and then quoting what you just said to prove that what you believe is true. No, what you believe and quoting yourself about that belief is only restating what you believe, it isn’t proving it. It doesn’t even sound like you’re convinced, let alone trying to convince others. Sounds more like damage limitation control to me.

“The Eastern Roman Empire was carved up by 10-germanic tribes”

Lol! How far in this fantasy do you want to go? Which ten tribes nonsense are you even talking about? I don’t even see ten tribes in your partial timeline. Why do you just make things up, and somehow believe by inventing it in your head somehow reality has conformed to it? It’s just getting really silly and evermore embarrassing for you. And by the way, this 10-tribe division of the Western Roman Empire theory that involves the Pope uprooting 3 is also a pure fiction, as I’ve already presented (its not even certain that there were 10 tribes; the alleged 3 were actually not deposed by the Pope – Vandals and Ostrogoths by the Roman Emperor Justinian, the Heruli by the Vandals; neither were they all destroyed because of being Arian – Heruli (Arian) were destroyed by the Lombards (Arian)). You ignored it, but ignoring something doesn’t mean you’ve disproved it. It just means you ignored it. In fact, the opposite is usually more likely to be true – you ignored it because it disproved what you said. You can continue down this line of thinking if you want, I would urge you not to, but its your choice – after all, its not me who’s looking embarrassed, it’s you.

“The Eastern Roman Emperor was powerless long before the date you cite.”

So are you saying it didn’t fall in 1453? Say it outright if that’s what you think. Becoming less and less powerful doesn’t mean an empire has finally ended – it simply means it has become less and less powerful. And that is actually quite normal(!) as far as empires go. What are we to do with all those historians who say that after 476 AD the Eastern Roman Empire continued for another thousand years? (476 – 1453 is more or less a thousand) I don’t know, maybe we could believe them? I would. I do. But judging by what you say, I feel you’ll probably just ignore them. Oh well. There’s not much I can do about that.

“I still await your correlation of Bible prophecy fulfilled with your rendition of history.”

“You have yet to give any concrete proof that you know what you are talking about.”

Lol! What have you been doing all this time? Are you just ignoring my posts, intimidated by its quotes from actual books on history? I don’t need to explain further because I’ve already stated it, even in summary points to make it as clear as it could possibly be. You have to respond to what I actually wrote, not think just that because you’ve ignored it and not read it that you have somehow refuted it. What rules of human communication are you actually following? When people put points forward in the real world, those are real points that you need to address, not ignore. But it sounds to me that you don’t live there – the real world I mean.

“I predicted that Pope Benedict would not be pope in 2013”

I’m not sure what benefit that predicting Benedict not being pope in 2013 has? It doesn’t prove anything, because its quite simply irrelevant. Has the world grovelled underneath the Papacy because Benedict would no longer be pope? And Revelation doesn’t even talk about popes anyway. Do you see the word “pope” there? Where exactly?

Closing

We can keep on going like this ad infinitum. Until you actually read what I wrote and engage with that, you’ll just be parroting what you said in the beginning, without ever dealing the points that I raised which actually refute your position, and still remain to do so.

As you’ve supplied a “partial” timeline (I’m not even sure what this proves), I’ve supplied a full timeline of all the Roman Emperors from the beginning of the Roman Empire to its end - please see the attachments. It is taken from one of the most famous historical works on the subject, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbons. If you look on the last page the final entry says simply this:

“1453: Capture of Constantinople by Mahomet II and end of the Roman Empire.”

If this can’t convince you, then I think nothing will – but that will only blatantly reveal your bias for tradition and not search for truth.

All the best

P.S. The IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) Director Yukiya Amano has been reported to have stated only a couple of days ago that a Nuclear Terror Attack is a real risk (many Watchman like Eric Stakelbeck and Glenn Beck and others have been warning about this for years). Ironically, Obama echoed the same thing at the Nuclear Security Summit (that’s rich coming from the only president to have negotiated nuclear power to Iran, a terrorist state). Sounds pretty serious to me. The time for Papal fantasy is ending. Islam is already here. But just like World War I & II, the signs were not heeded. And the world upended as a result. This time, it will bring on Armaggeddon. And those who persisted not to believe in Jesus’ warning in Revelation or his Salvation, even from within Christianity, will be found in serious peril.

[Thomas the Doubter]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I am still stuck on Rev 17:10.

Revelation 17:9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. [KJV says "there are also"]  Five have fallen, one is (#6), the other (#7) has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while."

The KJV makes it seem that the 7 "heads" and the 7 "kings" are different entities.  All the other translations indicate the heads and kings are the SAME entities.

The 7th "king"/"head" can only remain for "a little while". 

How can ISLAM be the 7th "head", if it came to power back in the 7th century, and lasted unto 1923?  That's NOT a "little while".   Now the militant ISLAM of today - on the other hand.  That really has come to POWER only recently.  I could certainly agree that ISIS will last only a "little while" - and their "caliphate".  

And how could the entire BEAST be Islam?  That doesn't fit.  Five "heads"/"kings", on that Beast had already "fallen" in John's day.  I could see one "head" being ISLAM (or militant ISLAM) but not the entire BEAST. 

8thdaypriest,

That's a very good question, and I've thought about this a lot (I've included it in the recent document I sent to you). It has confounded many commentators that I've read, and it perplexed me. Why? Because it doesn't seem to fit anyone's view, even an Islamic view. But an article by  Matt McClellan helped me enormously in this regard (Matt McClellan, “The Antichrist, the Islamic Caliphate, and the Seven Heads of the Beast,” (Christian Worldview Press, 19 August 2013)).

I think that the best way to decode this "little while" phrase is to understand which "kings" it is referring to. If we look at the pattern of previous "kings" and who they were, we can get an exact idea of which "king" in the 7th empire it is referring to. 

Firstly, obviously each empire has many kings and dynasties of kings, so the "7 kings" cannot be just any king of that empire, they must refer to someone very specific. In previous encounters in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible we can get a good idea of which kings of the major empires were significant to God and God's people:

Nebuchadnezzar II of the Neo-Babylonian Empire (2 Kin. 24-25; 2 Chr. 36; Jeremiah 21-52; Dan. 1-5),

Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid Persian Empire (2 Chr. 36.22-23; Ezr. 1; Isa. 44.28,45.1; Dan. 1.21, 6.28),

Alexander the Great of the Hellenist/Greek Empire (Dan. 8.5-8,21-22, 11.1-4),

Caesar Augustus of the Roman Empire (Lk. 2.1)

With the exception of Assyria (whose first mention of its king in the Bible is Tilgath-Pileser III - 2 Kings 15.19-29, 16.5-20; 1 Chr. 5.25-26; 2 Chr. 28.19-21), and Egypt (whose first interaction is with Abraham (Gen. 12.10-20) and other interactions with Joseph and Moses), the pattern that we get from them is a focus on the founding kings of those empires. (The fact that Egyptian and Assyrian interaction with Israel is not with their founding kings does no harm to this view, since what is recorded of those empires in the Bible is the historical account, but what is given in Rev. 17.9-10 is a prophetic overview.)

So that tells me that when it talks about the 7th king remaining for "a little while", for me it is referring to the founder of the Islamic Empire. And when you compare the reigns of all the founders of those empires something striking emerges. It turns out that in comparison with all the other empire kings, Muhammad (the founder of the Islamic Empire) had the shortest reign! and the “the fastest feat of empire building the world has ever seen” (Waldemar Januszczak, The Dark Ages: An Age of Light, ‘The Wonder of Islam,’ (ZCZ, BBC, 2012)),  boasting a vast swathe of territory, “far larger than the Roman Empire” (Andrew Marr, History of the World, (BBC, Discovery Channel, Open University, 2012)). If you look at the following table I've compiled it shows how clear this short reign is:

Empire	King	Reign	Total Years
Egypt (using the New Chrology)	Nebkaure Khety IV (Abraham Encounter) / Amenemhat III (Joseph Encounter)	1876-1847 BC / 1682-1637 BC	29 / 45
Neo-Assyria	Adad-nirari II (Founder) / Tilgath-Pileser III (First Israel Encounter)	912-891 BC / 912-891 BC	21 / 18
Neo-Babylon	Nebuchadnezzar II	605-562 BC	43
Achaemenid Persia	Cyrus the Great	559-530 BC	29
Hellenist/Greek Macedonia	Alexander the Great	336-323 BC	13
Roman	Tiberius Caesar Augustus	14-37 AD	23
Islamic	Muhammad the Prophet	622-632 AD	10

So in this way, the last piece of the puzzle actually fits perfectly.

God bless you

[hch]

The mumbled jumbled complicated elongated posts are enough to screech confusion!

1Co_14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Giving t for tat is not going to open this discussion to the increase of knowledge that has occurred in these last days.

Question: Who is the woman on the beast in Revelation 17? Christian regards

[Alchemy]

I have also considered Zech. 8:23. I believe Satan will counterfeit this in the last days and I believe that involves the ten horns of Revelation 17.

I believe the counterfeit Jew to be Apostate Protestantism and the ten men representing the languages of the world to be these ten horns of Revelation 17 led by Apostate Protestantism.{7BC 983.3-7}

There is a book called "Enroute to Global Occupation" by Gary Kah. He writes that the NWO will divide this earth into ten regions called kingdoms. This would be brought together by Apostate Protestantism fulfilling the ten horns of Revelation 17.

[Alchemy]

hch,

The woman on the beast in Revelation 17 is Babylon. The woman is that great city. (Revelation 17:5, 18)

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Alchemy said:

hch,

The woman on the beast in Revelation 17 is Babylon. The woman is that great city. (Revelation 17:5, 18)

The harlot of Revelation 18 says, "I sit a queen and will see no sorrow". 

The words parallel Isaiah Cpt 47 - the humiliation of Babylon:

"who say in your heart, 'I am, and there is no one else besides me; I shall not sit as a widow, nor shall I know the loss of children'." 

It will not be ancient Babylon, that is destroyed "in a moment, in one day."  (Rev 47:9).  It will be a restoration/resurrection of "Babylon" in the last days. 

So how do we CONNECT ancient Babylon, with the "last days" ?

Is it the RELIGION, or religious forms, that are brought from ancient Babylon into the "last days"? 

Or is it the LOCATION - literally @ the site of the ancient city of Babylon?  I don't think ancient Babylon sat on "seven hills", or ruled over 7 kingdoms. 

OR - is the name "Babylon" applied symbolically to the final kingdom to rule over Israel (and the world)? 

If this "Babylon" kingdom sets up its rule AT JERUSALEM, then it would sit on 7 hills. 

You believe that Babylon - the "harlot" is the Catholic Church.  Can you trace a direct line from ancient Babylon to the Catholic Church of Rome???  Is the religion exactly the same? 

If not - can you trace a direct line from ancient Babylon to the last days in some other way?

Personally, I am not at all sure that the "harlot" of Rev 18 is the Catholic Church.  I'm not absolutely convinced that it will be the City of Jerusalem.  I remain open minded on her identity.

 

[JoeMo]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:17 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I have Marv Rosenthal's book on my shelf.  I remember thinking that he went far beyond the text.  I'll read it over again, to see if I still think so.  He also misses a lot of Tabernacle/Hebrew imagery and custom. 

I just finished Marv's book; and read his short bio.  I am surprised that he neglects this so badly having been born into a conservative orthodox Jewish family.  Maybe when he wrote the book in 1990 there wasn't that much interest in evangelical circles about the relationship between - say - feast days and eschatology.  I wonder if he is still around.  I'm gonna Google him.