Who are the seven heads of Revelation 17?

[Martn]

[Alchemy]

On April 4, 2016 at 10:50 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The harlot of Revelation 18 says, "I sit a queen and will see no sorrow". 

The words parallel Isaiah Cpt 47 - the humiliation of Babylon:

"who say in your heart, 'I am, and there is no one else besides me; I shall not sit as a widow, nor shall I know the loss of children'." 

It will not be ancient Babylon, that is destroyed "in a moment, in one day."  (Rev 47:9).  It will be a restoration/resurrection of "Babylon" in the last days. 

So how do we CONNECT ancient Babylon, with the "last days" ?

Is it the RELIGION, or religious forms, that are brought from ancient Babylon into the "last days"? 

Or is it the LOCATION - literally @ the site of the ancient city of Babylon?  I don't think ancient Babylon sat on "seven hills", or ruled over 7 kingdoms. 

OR - is the name "Babylon" applied symbolically to the final kingdom to rule over Israel (and the world)? 

If this "Babylon" kingdom sets up its rule AT JERUSALEM, then it would sit on 7 hills. 

You believe that Babylon - the "harlot" is the Catholic Church.  Can you trace a direct line from ancient Babylon to the Catholic Church of Rome???  Is the religion exactly the same? 

If not - can you trace a direct line from ancient Babylon to the last days in some other way?

Personally, I am not at all sure that the "harlot" of Rev 18 is the Catholic Church.  I'm not absolutely convinced that it will be the City of Jerusalem.  I remain open minded on her identity.

 

The Bible is clear that Babylon is the last great power on the earth. It is even a world-wide power at the end. Of course, we must remember what Daniel says about not cleaving one to another. Anyway, Revelation 16:12 to 19:2 clearly states Babylon is the last world power and that Babylon is a three fold union of the Beast (Papacy),  Dragon (Spiritualism and Satan) and the False Prophet (Apostate Protestantism) with the Papacy at the head. (Revelation 16:12-21)

[Kevin H]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 6:19 PM, Pickle said:

For the discussion with hch, my point still stands. However, I doubt you can maintain your position on the day-for-a-year principle and be a futurist at the same time. You do believe that the 70 weeks are 490 years, don't you, even though Dan. 9 doesn't say it's talking about years?  The 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300 days are in the same book. How do you justify saying that the 70 weeks are 490 years, but time prophecies in the two previous visions, and the one following vision are not similarly years?

As far as the millennium goes, based on Rev. 10, and the declaration that there should be time no longer, there are no more prophetic time prophecies after the end of the 2300 days that the angel of Rev. 10 announced.

I realize that is too brief of an answer, but I would suggest we leave the millennium question alone for now. For now I would like you to share with me how you date the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks of Dan. 9. My contention has been that the futurist view destroys the ability to date the first 69 weeks, and that that then demonstrates that the futurist view cannot possibly be correct. The futurist scholars who have worked on this problem have not been able to find a solution, to my knowledge.

The 70 weeks of years are indeed 70 weeks of years. The 2300 evenings-mornings are 2300 cycles, which compared with Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy can mean 2300 literal days, 2300 growing seasons (half years ending in Passover/Yom Kippur) or 2300 years.  We need to study this out more fully but some of the other time periods of Daniel are literal days with in the 70 weeks of years and when we apply the year-day principle to them we end up doubling the year-day principle.  They are things that could have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came and as we study that out more then we can learn about reapplying the principle to the end of time.

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, MCBGM said:

Under heaven, perhaps. But not the only name in heaven by which we can be saved.

Perhaps no man can come to the Father except through Jesus. But the Father and the Spirit still are free themselves to go to whomever they please. Which is what makes the Jews different from every other people on earth (provided the scriptures regarding them are correct). God, the Great Spirit, himself has come to the Jews, whereas all other peoples must go to God.

Need I point out that any one can become a Jew. Judaism is open to all peoples.

Being saved under the name if Jesus means being saved by his character. This is open to everyone. Christians have an advantage because we realize that the time Jesus was on earth was when God was with us. And Jews have advantage because they have an awareness of this God who we Christians believe that Jesus is. And even Muslims are trying to reach out to this God. The Advent movement of 1844 went throughout Christianity, Judaism and Islam. But even in paganism and atheism there are people who are reaching out to this character and people who are rejecting this character. Those who are reaching out to this character, who are praying (in what ever way they understand prayer) for the types of things Jesus would pray for are praying in the name or character of Jesus.

The more light we have, the more knowledge of this character we have. Our understanding of the issues of the Great Controversy and the truth about the end of the wicked gives us advantages to those who are at a complete blank as to the origin of evil, or those who think that God is going to roast and toast people or who face a death that's the end, or to come back to again deal with the issues of living in this world. However we still have the Holy Spirit reaching out to everyone pointing them to this Character (and sadly the Charismatic movement has the disadvantage of having a Holy Spirit pointing to himself and his gifts, instead of to this Character.) And we have everyone who are either yielding to the Spirit's pleading and are thus reaching out to this Character, or hardening their hearts to this Character and living for self. As we share what we know people may have a clearer picture of this character.

The issue with the 7 heads are how Satan wants to get people to only look out for themselves. We are in a war between thinking we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, and loving the world as Jesus has loved it. I am becoming more convinced that the talk of God in the whirlwind to Job about working with behemoth is the beast of Revelation, working with the peoples, as well as dealing with the Leviathan, the issues that Satan has raised. (and thus in these Job understood what was happening and had his questions answered.) The 7th head is how we will all find ourselves in a situation where it will be to our disadvantage to not go along with the system unless we give up some point of conscience and look out for ourselves.

[Pickle]

18 hours ago, MCBGM said:

If we allow prophecies to have all sorts of spiritual meanings, instead of the literal and physical fulfillments indicated, then anyone can make a case for himself, or herself, as the Messiah. Which many have, and many do. Precisely why the Jews cannot and should not permit such explanations as valid.

God declared that, under no circumstances ("any more"), could a descendant of Jeconiah be the Messiah. There then can be no exception, period. Including any purported or imagined forgiveness of Jeconiah's wrongdoing. 

Yet the fact is that prominent Jewish rabbis have taught the explanation I mentioned for Jer. 22:30.

Do you have a problem with Jonah's prophecy against Nineveh? That it would be destroyed in 40 days? Or in Huldah's prophecy that Josiah would die in peace? Ezekiel is quite clear that prophecy is conditional.

But I don't know that we need to go there. I think it is true that not one descendant of David has sat upon the throne of David since the crown was taken from Zedekiah.

Ezekial 21:25-27  And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

The crown was removed from Zedekiah by Babylon, overturned once when Medo-Persia came, overturned a second time when Grecia came, and overturned a third time when Rome came. Then it was to be no more until the second coming since the NT says that that is when Christ shall sit on the throne of His glory.

But would you like "any more" to include eternity too?

If the Messiah cannot come from Jechoniah, which descendant of David are you proposing that he come from?

[Pickle]

On 4/4/2016 at 10:50 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Personally, I am not at all sure that the "harlot" of Rev 18 is the Catholic Church.  I'm not absolutely convinced that it will be the City of Jerusalem.  I remain open minded on her identity.

But you do agree that the harlot of Rev. 17 involves the city of Rome, do you not, since the angel said that Babylon, the woman, was the great city that rules over the kings of the earth, and that the 7 heads were 7 mountains upon which the woman sits? I don't see any way that this point can be disputed.

Vespasian minted a coin in 71 AD that had an immodestly-clad woman on the back who was sitting on 7 hills and was named Roma. In the 1st half of the 2nd century AD, a monument was set up in Corinth to the goddess Roma, consisting of a woman sitting on a base that was carved to resemble rock and had 8 inscriptions on it. The Capitoline was engraved twice in the upper part of the base, once on each side, and the lower part contained the other six inscriptions, three on each side. All but one inscription was intact. 5 were called Mons, or Mount, and 2 were called Collis, or Hill. The list of 7 hills was the same as what we have today.

Thus, I don't see any way to dispute that the city of Rome is involved with the harlot of Rev. 17.

[Pickle]

7 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The 70 weeks of years are indeed 70 weeks of years. The 2300 evenings-mornings are 2300 cycles, which compared with Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy can mean 2300 literal days, 2300 growing seasons (half years ending in Passover/Yom Kippur) or 2300 years.  We need to study this out more fully but some of the other time periods of Daniel are literal days with in the 70 weeks of years and when we apply the year-day principle to them we end up doubling the year-day principle.  They are things that could have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came and as we study that out more then we can learn about reapplying the principle to the end of time.

Dan. 9 uses a word for "week" that can only mean "week." Thus we must use the day-for-a-year principle to convert the 490 days to 490 years.

An important point is that Daniel fainted in ch. 8 over the 2300 days, which only makes sense if he understood them to be 2300 years. The idea that it would take 2300 literal days before Jerusalem and the temple could be rebuilt is no big deal, nothing to faint and get sick over, given how long Daniel had already been in captivity, and given how much more of Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy remained to be fulfilled.

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Pickle said:

Dan. 9 uses a word for "week" that can only mean "week."

Actually, the word used for "week in Daniel 9 is literally translated "seven".  Look through the various translation of Daniel 9:24-26.  Many of them say "490 years" or "seventy weeks of years"; and stuff like that.  Admittedly, several translations say "seventy weeks".  There is still some controversy over how to interpret this; but I believe that 490 years is the correct way.  Just my opinion.

[Pickle]

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Prophecies can be conditional. Blessings and, conversely, cursings are not.

And yet the Torah specifically conditions blessings on obedience, and curses on disobedience.

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Also worth noting is that the Messiah of Israel is not a mere messiah (as Jesus is called in Daniel 9), but also the Moshiach (Mashiakh), a Jewish term meaning "Comforter" --someone who will empower the Jewish people themselves. Could that be who Jesus was actually talking about when he spoke of "the Comforter" who would yet come and reveal all things? Not merely the Holy Spirit as many Christians have assumed.

It's not an assumption since Jesus Himself said that's what He was referring to.

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Since Moshiach must come from the tribe of Judah, his ancestry therefore cannot come through any maternal line. Even if the mother herself is of the tribe of Judah, still only the father's line determines tribal identity.

What about in the case where a person has no human father? Must the child of a virgin be excluded from Israel for this reason?

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

How do we know this? Not just from one single text or selection of texts, here or there, but from all the texts in scripture collectively which document how Jewish succession was conducted. In every single instance the Royal line, for example, always passed to the firstborn son of the King, or to the next eldest son if the first died without heir. It never ever passed to a stepchild or an adopted heir or to a daughter or her descendants.

Solomon was not the eldest surviving son of David. I agree that the rule was the eldest, even before the monarchy. The eldest was the priest and ruler of the clan, and received a double portion of the inheritance. Why? The firstborn typified Christ. But there were always exceptions to the rule, such as Solomon, David, Shem, Seth, Abraham, Jacob, and Judah/Levi/Joseph. More important than birth order was spiritual fitness. I'm sure you're aware of why 1 Chronicles says Reuben didn't receive the birthright, which was then split three ways between Judah, Levi, and Joseph.

I think Zelophehad's daughters give us a way to determine what to do in the case of a virgin birth.

 

1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

Therefore King David's heir, the Messiah, who was to be of David's own (Y DNA) seed, can come only through an unbroken male line of descent from King David. An unbroken bloodline which does in fact survive, right down to this very day. As will be proved when Moshiach is revealed.

Does the Bible permit this way of determining genealogies?

[Pickle]

27 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Actually, the word used for "week in Daniel 9 is literally translated "seven".  Look through the various translation of Daniel 9:24-26.  Many of them say "490 years" or "seventy weeks of years"; and stuff like that.  Admittedly, several translations say "seventy weeks".  There is still some controversy over how to interpret this; but I believe that 490 years is the correct way.  Just my opinion.

A papers at AUSS.info points out that the word for "week" only means "week." It is the word for "weeks," not "week," that some try to say means "sevens," but some interesting papers at AUSS.info point out why this is unlikely.

The reason why the idea of "sevens" is so hard to is because futurists need some way to turn the 490 days into years without invoking the day-year principle.

See http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=863&journal=1&type=pdf and http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=886&journal=1&type=pdf

[JoeMo]

Pickle,

You and Andrews University are entitled to your opinions.  Others of us are entitled to their opinions.  I am not uncomfortable with having different opinions on things people a lot smarter than me can't even agree on.

[Martn]

 

[Martn]

[Martn]

[JoeMo]

28 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

One thing I've noticed among highly intelligent people, they only disagree with one another when one or the other is being dishonest and insincere.

I think people can disagree with one another without being dishonest or insincere.  One can be sincere; and yet be sincerely wrong.  For that matter, both parties can be sincerely wrong.  This is particularly true in matters of faith, philosophy, and politics; where so much is based on the subjective and qualitative rather than the objective and quantitative measurements of an argument's pro's or con's.

It is usually the case when people disagree with me that they are sincerely wrong.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/5/2016 at 2:36 PM, MCBGM said:

Jesus is not telling them that Messiah cannot be David's son. He is simply challenging them to figure out how this is possible. Given that the Messiah will have authority (lordship) over King David even.

Now, according to Christian scripture, Jesus himself actually was David's son. An actual, bloodline descendant of King David, through Mary the mother of Jesus.

Mary his mother was not, however, a bloodline descendant of King David through David's son Solomon. And so neither was Jesus, as prophecy requires the Messiah must be.

Jesus was a bloodline descendant of King David. But he was not a bloodline descendant of King Solomon. This is the problem which Jews have with Jesus.

The LORD cursed Jehoiachin (or Jeconiah, or Coniah) (Jeremiah 22:30).  He was the king.  No descendant of his would EVER sit on David's throne, ruling the tribes of Israel.  The line from Solomon (so far as a ruling king) ENDS with Jehoiachin.  So how can Messiah come from this line?? 

Answer:  He could not be biologically descended from Jehoiachin.  But he COULD be legally descended, though adoption by Joseph (who WAS descended from this line - the royal line). 

Mary was descended from David, through Nathan. 

Where does the Bible say that Messiah CANNOT come through maternal descent?
 

[Martn]

[Martn]

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/5/2016 at 7:48 AM, Pickle said:

You evaded the issue. Why?

If Dan. 12:1's time of trouble is the 7 last plagues, when is the time of persecution of Dan. 11:33, 35? That was my question. And I pointed out that the 1290 days begin with Dan. 11:31, which is, to my knowledge, indisputable.

I believe the last 3.5 years (1260 days) of persecution will LEAD UP TO the Second Coming in glory.  (See past posts.)

The persecution of Daniel 11:33,35, is NOT CONNECTED to a specific time period.  It is most likely the persecution of the last 1260 days.  Though we have seen, and are seeing severe persecution of Christians by Muslims, all over the world - now. 

I believe the 1260 days will see the trumpet judgments, except trumpet #7 - the "last trump", which will be the VIAL PLAGUES.   

The 7 vial plagues (resulting in the WORST "time of trouble" ever seen on earth) will be "poured out" on the DAY that Christ returns.  ("Therefore her plagues will come in one day.")  Something happens which initiates the last vial sequence, which will completely destroy all life on planet earth. 

The redeemed will be translated off this earth before the vial plagues are poured out. 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Alchemy said:

The Bible is clear that Babylon is the last great power on the earth. It is even a world-wide power at the end. Of course, we must remember what Daniel says about not cleaving one to another. Anyway, Revelation 16:12 to 19:2 clearly states Babylon is the last world power and that Babylon is a three fold union of the Beast (Papacy),  Dragon (Spiritualism and Satan) and the False Prophet (Apostate Protestantism) with the Papacy at the head. (Revelation 16:12-21)

I cannot agree Alchemy.  The "woman" - "harlot" rides on the Beast.  SHE is not the BEAST.  And HER name is "Babylon".  Personally, I believe she is the system of false worship, which began at Ancient Babylon, under Nimrod, and spread to the whole world.  

[8thdaypriest]

22 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

I've already answered this. See above.

There is no legal descent of Kings (Messiahs) through adoption. Scripture shows, consistently, it was never even once permitted.

Scripture shows, consistently, that the Messiah could not come through David's son Nathan. Only through Solomon.

Scripture shows, without exception, that maternal descent is never permitted in determining Kingship (Messiahship).

 

Where does Scripture "show" this???

Jesus is our High Priest also, according to the Letter to the Hebrews.  But he is NOT of the line from Aaron. 

If God can choose a priest, not of the Levite/Aaronic line, then He can choose a king - NOT of the Solomonic line.  It is HIS choice!!!  The earthly priesthood became corrupted (almost from its inception).  Prophecy tells us the LORD would return to the original Melchizedek priesthood. 

Solomon CORRUPTED Israel with his pagan wives, who brought their idols into the heart of Jerusalem.  Why would Messiah come from this line? 

Prophecy simply said that Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David.  Jesus WAS. 

[Martn]

[8thdaypriest]

April is planting time here in East Texas.  I'm outside all day, most days.  Just taking a "break today" to clean house and prepare for Sabbath, so thought I'd check in.

Ya'll enjoy Sabbath now.  That's East Texan for Shabbat Shalom.  

[Martn]